Bergevin crashes into Autumn (Part 7): Out of Time Edition

[Habs Halifax]

HE GOT FIRED. After his 5 year debacle.

Houle for 6 years < Bergevin for 8.

Took Savard/Gainey years to recover from the Houle mess. If Bergevin is fired today, the next GM has lots to work with!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Someone from Sportsnet was reporting that MTL was scouting SJ for LD . Someone else said there is a certain one from this area.

He does have a NMC I do believe and has said in the past he would not want to play in MTL if I remember right.

Unless Alzner goes the other way then this would put us in a real mess Capwise in a year and I am do not think Vlassic is worth it

I don't think Vlassic is worth it either. He is is 32 and signed till 38. Alzner is no longer NHL quality but he is buy out friendly starting this off season. Vlassic could be a long term problem and is not buy out friendly.

If they want to retain to even up the salary, I'd consider adding something but not sure what. The other factor is what is the LD depth with the Sharks and does it make sense for them to trade Vlasic? Remove Vlasic and who plays with Burns? They would want a LD coming back... So one of Kulak or Reilly?

I just don't see a fit for either team.

 

[Kriss E]

The evaluation runs deeper than that and usually beyond their tenure due to ripple effects.

Well if you're fair in the evaluation, you need to factor in how Houle had a mandate to shed salary and a president that had a say in things.
Also the ripple effect is a bit exaggerated. Gainey took over and instantly turned us into a PO team.
On the flip side, whether you agree or not, many believe Bergey inherited a near complete contender core. To make it easier, he had an owner willing to spend as much as he wanted, hire the most scouts, buyout contracts, and do pretty much anything he wanted. He had free reigns over the team and completely squandered things where we very possibly will miss the POs for the 4th time in 5 years.

But hey, you can say Houle is worse, I probably agree, the fact this is even being discussed is the problem.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well if you're fair in the evaluation, you need to factor in how Houle had a mandate to shed salary and a president that had a say in things.
Also the ripple effect is a bit exaggerated. Gainey took over and instantly turned us into a PO team.
On the flip side, whether you agree or not, many believe Bergey inherited a near complete contender core. To make it easier, he had an owner willing to spend as much as he wanted, hire the most scouts, buyout contracts, and do pretty much anything he wanted. He had free reigns over the team and completely squandered things where we very possibly will miss the POs for the 4th time in 5 years.

But hey, you can say Houle is worse, I probably agree, the fact this is even being discussed is the problem.

You can shed salary but still draft well. Houle was a mess in all areas. Bergevin has made mistakes yeah like all GM's do but if we replace him today, the new GM inherits a lot to work with!

Houle traded Roy to quick and got a horrible return. One of the worse trades in franchise history! Bergevin traded Subban but the return was equal value but 4 years older. Not a popular trade but certainly not a horrible trade.

Took Bergevin a while but he has stocked piled picks for us to hit in drafting. You can make reference to prospect pools before but what we have today is some of the best trending prospects we have seen in years!

I have Bergevin on par with Gainey. Gainey made mistakes too but started with crap, had some success in the middle and ended not so good. He tried

 

[Kriss E]

You can shed salary but still draft well. Houle was a mess in all areas. Bergevin has made mistakes yeah like all GM's do but if we replace him today, the new GM inherits a lot to work with!

That's why I put Houle lower, but Bergey ain't that far behind because unlike Houle, he was put in an ideal position and given all the tools to succeed.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's why I put Houle lower, but Bergey ain't that far behind because unlike Houle, he was put in an ideal position and given all the tools to succeed.

He was not given all the tools to succeed... center depth was horrible! He had Price, Subban, Patch, 3rd OA pick, and Gallagher as our best prospect. Beaulieu and Tinordi were consider good prospects but they were overrated cause they were the best we had after Gallagher.

3rd OA pick: Who was the best center available in the 2012 draft in hindsight? There are none to brag about in that 1st round! If there was a legit center we missed on, I might change my opinion on "all the tools to work with"

Is the 2012 draft the worse group of centers in history? Not sure but when looking at that entire 1st round, I'm not seeing much top 2 centers.

 

[DangerDave]

That's why I put Houle lower, but Bergey ain't that far behind because unlike Houle, he was put in an ideal position and given all the tools to succeed.

I'm not sure I can agree with the bolded. Subban and Price were a good start but no centermen and out best scorer disappeared in the post season. I'm not sure I can really blame the poor drafting record on him either.

 

[Whitesnake]

He was not given all the tools to succeed... center depth was horrible! He had Price, Subban, Patch, 3rd OA pick, and Gallagher as our best prospect. Beaulieu and Tinordi were consider good prospects but they were overrated cause they were the best we had after Gallagher.

3rd OA pick: Who was the best center available in the 2012 draft in hindsight? There are none to brag about in that 1st round! If there was a legit center we missed on, I might change my opinion on "all the tools to work with"

Is the 2012 draft the worse group of centers in history? Not sure but when looking at that entire 1st round, I'm not seeing much top 2 centers.

When you draft the best player available, you can trade them if needed for the needs you have. 2012, I had no problem with the Galchy pick. 2013 made no sense. 2014 made sense but turned out bad. 2015 still needs to be determined.

By the way, Beaulieu and Tinordi were not overrated. They were good prospects. You see them NOW as being overrated 'cause they eventually sucked. I really think Beaulieu was a fine pick. Disagreed on Tinordi though. But they were still fine prospects.

Still in the end, you start with the best goalie in the world. In Houle days, nobody remembers the list of shitty 1st rounders we had in the end 80's and 90's? How can you build a team when Éric Charron, Lindsey Vallis, Turner Stevenson, Brent Bilodeau and David Wilike are your respective 1st rounders. While you missed during those drafts Mark Reechi, Tony Amonte, Adam Foote, Keith Tkachuk, Glen Murray amongst a few other thousand picks.

I have no idea why people can't evaluate GM's on the same basis. So Bergevin sucks 'cause of the drafting....but Houle didn't suck because of it? And don't worry, I know that Houle wasn't a GM. Which in the end makes Bergevin works 'cause he was in the business. He wasn't pushed from behind to do a job he was not prepared to do. He was suppose to be. Not the case with Houle.

 

[Mrb1p]

He was not given all the tools to succeed... center depth was horrible! He had Price, Subban, Patch, 3rd OA pick, and Gallagher as our best prospect. Beaulieu and Tinordi were consider good prospects but they were overrated cause they were the best we had after Gallagher.

3rd OA pick: Who was the best center available in the 2012 draft in hindsight? There are none to brag about in that 1st round! If there was a legit center we missed on, I might change my opinion on "all the tools to work with"

Is the 2012 draft the worse group of centers in history? Not sure but when looking at that entire 1st round, I'm not seeing much top 2 centers.

Lol, Galchenyuk was as legit as you could get as a center prospect.

 

[salbutera]

When you draft the best player available, you can trade them if needed for the needs you have. 2012, I had no problem with the Galchy pick. 2013 made no sense. 2014 made sense but turned out bad. 2015 still needs to be determined.

By the way, Beaulieu and Tinordi were not overrated. They were good prospects. You see them NOW as being overrated 'cause they eventually sucked. I really think Beaulieu was a fine pick. Disagreed on Tinordi though. But they were still fine prospects.

Still in the end, you start with the best goalie in the world. In Houle days, nobody remembers the list of ****ty 1st rounders we had in the end 80's and 90's? How can you build a team when Éric Charron, Lindsey Vallis, Turner Stevenson, Brent Bilodeau and David Wilike are your respective 1st rounders. While you missed during those drafts Mark Reechi, Tony Amonte, Adam Foote, Keith Tkachuk, Glen Murray amongst a few other thousand picks.

I have no idea why people can't evaluate GM's on the same basis. So Bergevin sucks 'cause of the drafting....but Houle didn't suck because of it? And don't worry, I know that Houle wasn't a GM. Which in the end makes Bergevin works 'cause he was in the business. He wasn't pushed from behind to do a job he was not prepared to do. He was suppose to be. Not the case with Houle.

Yup

Just to add, what’s the guarantee that the next Francophone GM with no experience will be able to immediately do better? Since language is a prerequisite qualification of the ownership..

When you pick a rookie GM, you should expect growing pains, just like you would with prospects in the first few seasons.

 

[Habs Halifax]

When you draft the best player available, you can trade them if needed for the needs you have. 2012, I had no problem with the Galchy pick. 2013 made no sense. 2014 made sense but turned out bad. 2015 still needs to be determined.

By the way, Beaulieu and Tinordi were not overrated. They were good prospects. You see them NOW as being overrated 'cause they eventually sucked. I really think Beaulieu was a fine pick. Disagreed on Tinordi though. But they were still fine prospects.

Still in the end, you start with the best goalie in the world. In Houle days, nobody remembers the list of ****ty 1st rounders we had in the end 80's and 90's? How can you build a team when Éric Charron, Lindsey Vallis, Turner Stevenson, Brent Bilodeau and David Wilike are your respective 1st rounders. While you missed during those drafts Mark Reechi, Tony Amonte, Adam Foote, Keith Tkachuk, Glen Murray amongst a few other thousand picks.

I have no idea why people can't evaluate GM's on the same basis. So Bergevin sucks 'cause of the drafting....but Houle didn't suck because of it? And don't worry, I know that Houle wasn't a GM. Which in the end makes Bergevin works 'cause he was in the business. He wasn't pushed from behind to do a job he was not prepared to do. He was suppose to be. Not the case with Houle.

We drafted Galchenyuk as our future center and he was not a center. We did trade him for a very good player in Domi. But is Domi our franchise center? You only can get franchise centers if you draft them. It was just shitty there was none to be had in that 2012 draft.

I disagree Beaulieu and Tinordi were not overrated. They are more like Mete and Juulsen with our current group. And there was massive drop off after Gallagher, Beaulieu, and Tinordi. Why? 8 top 100 picks from 08-11. You can fight it all you want but the prospect pool in 2012 was horrible.

The best goalie in the world don't win you cups in the salary cap era. Worked with Roy back when but that does not happen anymore. You need to be strong up the middle and have good depth.

Bergevin had some things to work with but pretending he had everything? I disagree. I think the biggest mistake he made was not selling off vets to help the rebuild around Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, Galchenyuk. The returns we could of got for Pleky and Markov would of been very good.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Lol, Galchenyuk was as legit as you could get as a center prospect.

I didn't say he wasn't and I think you missed my point. We desperately needed a franchise center and in hindsight, there was none to be found in the 2012 draft. Imagine what our team would of done if we had a franchise center when we were winning divisions with the struggling Galchenyuk.

Circumstance plays a factor. Saying Bergevin had everything to work with is false. He had some things to work with but a horrible prospect pool. His error was not identifying our ability to fill holes in future seasons cause the prospects pool was not deep enough. 8 top 100 picks from 08-11 is obvious. Add that the 2012 and 2013 drafts were also a disappointment in terms of not hitting with the picks we accumulated.... Was this his fault that those drafts were weak? You tell me

I'm not giving Bergevin 100% support but I think some will assume I am cause I'm not throwing him under the bus in the evaluation. I would fire him today cause I think we need change for the sake of change and I want to see a vet sell of sale to reinforce our probability of hitting on more prospects that fall in our youth movement.

Bergevin is trying to save his job and like a politician who is nearing the end of their term, they sacrifice long term plans for short term gains so they can stay

But Bergevin is a much better GM than Houle. Not even close

 

[Mrb1p]

I didn't say he wasn't and I think you missed my point. We desperately needed a franchise center and in hindsight, there was none to be found in the 2012 draft. Imagine what our team would of done if we had a franchise center when we were winning divisions with the struggling Galchenyuk.

Circumstance plays a factor. Saying Bergevin had everything to work with is false. He had some things to work with but a horrible prospect pool. His error was not identifying our ability to fill holes in future seasons cause the prospects pool was not deep enough. 8 top 100 picks from 08-11 is obvious. Add that the 2012 and 2013 drafts were also a disappointment in terms of not hitting with the picks we accumulated.... Was this his fault that those drafts were weak? You tell me

How do you repeat the same thing ? The failures to develop Galchenyuk, who was, at one point in his career, probably thr best center prospect in all of hockey, means there was a center in the 2012 draft. Heck, there was even more than one in Teravainen and Hertl.

 

[Habs Halifax]

How do you repeat the same thing ? The failures to develop Galchenyuk, who was, at one point in his career, probably thr best center prospect in all of hockey, means there was a center in the 2012 draft. Heck, there was even more than one in Teravainen and Hertl.

Galchenyuk was not a center. Are you saying he would be a center today if we developed him into one? Come on man, he is who he is. Just like Forsberg, he is not a center. We made the right pick but he is not a franchise center which was a huge need with that 3rd OA pick. Teravainen and Hertl would of not been franchise centers for us. Keep trying. The point here is we had the 3rd OA pick and there was no franchise center to be had. Reality but you can ignore than cause you hate Bergevin

I'm talking about centers like Petterrsson or Drai types. I have to repeat it to you cause my point is going over your head each time. Take your Bergevin hate glasses off for a second eh

 

[calder candidate]

The real value to the Habs will be if/when Weber retires before his contract term is up and holding up Nashville for ransom on the recapture.

The current CBA expire sept 15 2022, which is the 1st year that Weber will receive less than 6M$ (3M/ 1M/1M/1M)
1) I’m sure that the NHL won’t leave Nashville on the hook especially since the had to match that contract and it was done before the rule were in place. Just like they let Plenty of situation slide Progner (he actually held front office position with the PHI and the NHL while he was on LTIR), Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lupul, Hossa, Horton and many more...
2)Why would he lose out on 6M$ if he can just stay home and cash in the checks...
3) Luongo retiring is the exception and it didn’t really hurt anyone help Flo be under the cap and actually the cap recapture would have been worst if he had retired in the next 2 years because the recapture is spread on less years.
4) Nsh Will be on the hook for 6M$ over 4 years...
They are probably better no give in and bit the bullet or hope a other team is willing to take the contract than giving up asset. they have 3M$ to spare and have Bonino, Smith, Granlund, Ekhlom, Rinne, Hanhuis coming of the books with only Josi due for a big raise and have Turris at 6M$ that could be move or LTIR... Mtl doesn’t much power in the situation especially if Weber doesn’t want to retire since than their no incentive for NSH to acquire him in the first place.

 

[Mrb1p]

Galchenyuk was not a center. Are you saying he would be a center today if we developed him into one? Come on man, he is who he is. Just like Forsberg, he is not a center. We made the right pick but he is not a franchise center which was a huge need with that 3rd OA pick. Teravainen and Hertl would of not been franchise centers for us. Keep trying. The point here is we had the 3rd OA pick and there was no franchise center to be had. Reality but you can ignore than cause you hate Bergevin

I'm talking about centers like Petterrsson or Drai types. I have to repeat it to you cause my point is going over your head each time. Take your Bergevin hate glasses off for a second eh

Were you around in 2012 when Galchenyuk first came in? He held even more hype than Kotkaniemi. He was a saviour. Probably the most purely skilled player that laced them up in a habs jersey since Kovalev. He had EVERYTHING to be a center, a franchise one, everything but a coach willing to work with him to make him one. Stop with the stupid revisionist history. Galchenyuk even showed he was ready to center a line in 2014 when he went ppg over forty game as the 1C of the team.

But at one point, you develop a player as a winger, hes going to be a winger.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Were you around in 2012 when Galchenyuk first came in? He held even more hype than Kotkaniemi. He was a saviour. Probably the most purely skilled player that laced them up in a habs jersey since Kovalev. He had EVERYTHING to be a center, a franchise one, everything but a coach willing to work with him to make him one. Stop with the stupid revisionist history. Galchenyuk even showed he was ready to center a line in 2014 when he went ppg over forty game as the 1C of the team.

But at one point, you develop a player as a winger, hes going to be a winger.

Galchenyuk is not a true center and yes, I have been a Habs fans for decades.

The conversation you jumped into was about inheritance.... the 3rd OA pick resulted in a winger cause there was no franchise center to pick in that 2012 draft. If there was, I'd be saying Bergevin screwed up cause it would be... Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, FRANCHISE CENTER, and vets like Markov and Pleky. Prospect pool was still crappy though cause it had terrible depth.

Franchise Center >>>> Galchenyuk who was a top 6F talent.

 

[DAChampion]

Galchenyuk's injuries, and continuous undermining by Therrien who always prioritized Desharnais, definitely undermined his development. That doesn't negate his poor attitude, and similarly the poor attitude doesn't negate Therrien's obsession with Desharnais. Galchenyuk, by the way, is up to his old tricks -- he is currently injured.

Therrien also undermined Eller, and management defenders on the forum told us for years that Eller was garbage. They were wrong. Eller has outlasted Desharnais in the NHL, and is playing at a splendid 34 point per 82 game pace since joining the Caps, does even better in the playoffs.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Galchenyuk's injuries, and continuous undermining by Therrien who always prioritized Desharnais, definitely undermined his development. That doesn't negate his poor attitude, and similarly the poor attitude doesn't negate Therrien's obsession with Desharnais. Galchenyuk, by the way, is up to his old tricks -- he is currently injured.

Therrien also undermined Eller, and management defenders on the forum told us for years that Eller was garbage. They were wrong. Eller has outlasted Desharnais in the NHL, and is playing at a splendid 34 point per 82 game pace since joining the Caps, does even better in the playoffs.

Good point on Eller. He was not developed well or trusted as a future center. We choose DD over Eller and that was a mistake by Bergevin!

Biggest issue is we wanted a top 2C and Eller was more of a Danault type (middle 2C). We threw Eller under the bus for some reason cause of our desperate need for a #1C. Eller went to the Caps and fell in place as a perfect middle 2C for them cause they actually had a legit #1C and options at 2C/3C with Eller in the mix.

 

[Edgy]

We did not commit to a development plan with Galchenyuk, we used him at center but wouldn't let him learn from his mistakes so we shifted him to the wing, when we got desperate for any form of offense we used him as a center again, when DD cried to MT we shifted him to the wing again, we never gave him steady linemates to develop chemistry with, we played him on both sides of the wing, on all 4 lines.

Short of playing him in goal, I don't see how we could have screwed up his development more. It is by far the worst case of player handling and development I have ever seen and we're copy/pasting it again with Kotka and Suzuki.

 

[Tighthead]

Were you around in 2012 when Galchenyuk first came in? He held even more hype than Kotkaniemi. He was a saviour. Probably the most purely skilled player that laced them up in a habs jersey since Kovalev. He had EVERYTHING to be a center, a franchise one, everything but a coach willing to work with him to make him one. Stop with the stupid revisionist history. Galchenyuk even showed he was ready to center a line in 2014 when he went ppg over forty game as the 1C of the team.

But at one point, you develop a player as a winger, hes going to be a winger.

It is obviously hindsight and speculation, but I always thought AG making the team as a rookie was a mistake all around. Like with KK, my spidey sense tingled that it was in some way about optics.

 

[teamfirst]

Lol, Galchenyuk was as legit as you could get as a center prospect.

Just like Brian Lawton, Dale Wickheneiser and some others

 

[Whitesnake]

We drafted Galchenyuk as our future center and he was not a center. We did trade him for a very good player in Domi. But is Domi our franchise center? You only can get franchise centers if you draft them. It was just ****ty there was none to be had in that 2012 draft.

I disagree Beaulieu and Tinordi were not overrated. They are more like Mete and Juulsen with our current group. And there was massive drop off after Gallagher, Beaulieu, and Tinordi. Why? 8 top 100 picks from 08-11. You can fight it all you want but the prospect pool in 2012 was horrible.

The best goalie in the world don't win you cups in the salary cap era. Worked with Roy back when but that does not happen anymore. You need to be strong up the middle and have good depth.

Bergevin had some things to work with but pretending he had everything? I disagree. I think the biggest mistake he made was not selling off vets to help the rebuild around Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, Galchenyuk. The returns we could of got for Pleky and Markov would of been very good.

But he was seen as a centerman. By Bergevin himself. How is Bergevin a victim of Bergevin? And he traded Galchy....for Domi? Did he try to trade him for a C? Don't know. End result is that it's him who acquired Domi and for now, it's a very good trade nonetheless. But if your point is that Domi isn't a top C....well you or I didn't trade Galchy for Domi, Bergevin did...so again, Bergevin a victim of Bergevin? 8 top 100 picks from 08-11...yep. But 11 top 100 pick in 2012 and 2013. And again, top 100 pick means so much. Have only 1 pick per draft. All in the 1st round. And even if you miss every 2nd draft, chances are you look better as a team.

Clearly, best goalie don't win cups. But it's a damn good start. It's something you don't have to look for and concentrate elsewhere.

Yep, Bergevin didn't have everything. I wonder though....who does? Which GM won because he had everything before he came in? Why should he have everything?

 

[Mrb1p]

Galchenyuk is not a true center and yes, I have been a Habs fans for decades.

The conversation you jumped into was about inheritance.... the 3rd OA pick resulted in a winger cause there was no franchise center to pick in that 2012 draft. If there was, I'd be saying Bergevin screwed up cause it would be... Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, FRANCHISE CENTER, and vets like Markov and Pleky. Prospect pool was still crappy though cause it had terrible depth.

Franchise Center >>>> Galchenyuk who was a top 6F talent.

Jesus, I swear sometimes ...

The 3OA pick was mishandled and resulted in a winger, he was drafted as a center and he was seen as a center for the majority of his prospect life.
He.
Was.
A.
Center.

Youre talking in hindsight after the management did everything in their f***ing power to destroy what he was.

The 3rd OA ended up a winger BECAUSE Bergevin is inept at hockey management.

 

[salbutera]

IMO we all are saying the same things in different ways, as someone posted above accurately about Galchenyuk the issues is: “let him learn from his mistakes“.

So the question I think which needs to be be asked is why not or who is preventing that ability to learn from mistakes? The most obvious is the coach, but again why is that so? Root cause all comes down to the mandate from ownership IMO - compete for a playoff spot now.