Beginning of the End? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part IX

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The point of negotiation is not to win; it is to agree. Particularly in CBA situations, where you will be sitting across the table from the same people in 5, 10, 15 years.

Fehr's job is to get the best deal he can for the union. Uncle Gary said the offers would just get worse after the second offer. Fehr called his bluff and waited to get a real proposal.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

You sound awfully angry for a scholar.

I am very angry. The players have pissed me off since June with the way they have dealt with this.

And I didn't realize "scholars" had to be happy go lucky people all the time.

 

[mossey3535]

What does my username have to do with anything? I am a hockey fan. But I am also a business professional. I am not an expert but I like to think I know a thing or two about how business works.

I am anti-player when it comes to the business aspect of the sport. The hockey aspect is a whole separate entity.

You mean when there's money involved you try to act professionally and not let your ego or feelings interfere? This is a crazy, unfathomable notion on hfboards.

 

[Riptide]

Fehr is playing on the absolute sheep mind mentality of the players.

Not only that, before he even presents the e-mail, he disregards the integrity of whats to come in a few short sentences. That already killed anything the league had to say going forward.

This is why it's important for players to sit in on these meetings themselves so they can form their own conclusions. I'm willing to bet that Mr. Montador is receiving a kickback from this dinosaur to whoop it up through the media with Fehr's garbage.

I'm pretty sure thats why the NHL decided to publicly post their offer.

 

[haseoke39]

That will sure as hell show those owners. I mean, players. Crap.

Most NHL owners will actually save money, so, yeah.

 

[bluesfan94]

They did, but it is coming out of the player's share and relies on growth. So it is possible they never see that moony.

That is the exact provision that has the players pissed off right now. The owners have to be willing to move on this if there is going to be a deal.

All of the players' proposals included forecasted growth that would be the basis of the reduction of the the percentage of revenues

 

[mossey3535]

Fehr is playing on the absolute sheep mind mentality of the players.

He is acting in complete disregard of what's in the best intention of the players at this point.

He keeps working off the old CBA, citing money "lost" at the same increase in revenue going forward, totally neglecting the fact that it's not money "lost" because it's an entirely new deal. Such an obvious fact is being overlooked by many because of how sensitive it looks at face value. The players would have to had an interpreter explain that one.

Not only that, before he even presents the e-mail, he disregards the integrity of whats to come in a few short sentences. That already killed anything the league had to say going forward.

This is why it's important for players to sit in on these meetings themselves so they can form their own conclusions. I'm willing to bet that Mr. Montador is receiving a kickback from this dinosaur to whoop it up through the media with Fehr's garbage.

Remember, the reason that HRR needs to be 'clarified' from the NHL's perspective is because the Fehr and the NHLPA blindsided them by claiming the $20M in public subsidies from NSH and PHX in 2011. Basically the NHL wants the definitions to be better defined so they don't have to settle on another lawsuit.

So him questioning the integrity of the HRR definition when he basically provoked that clause in the offer is pretty rich.

 

[Iggy77]

All of the players' proposals included forecasted growth that would be the basis of the reduction of the the percentage of revenues

The reduction would be temporary at best as after 3 years they snap back to 57% HRR, some reduction. And if league revenues drop, players get their money, owners take the losses.

There's little reason for the players to take Bettman's offer but there's no reason for the owners to take Fehr's either.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

You mean when there's money involved you try to act professionally and not let your ego or feelings interfere? This is a crazy, unfathomable notion on hfboards.

100% correct. If both sides were able to put egos aside and negotiate this deal would have been done months ago.

What pisses me off the most about the players is that they are fighting this fight because "it isn't right" that the owners "took money last time, so they shouldn't get to do it again." While they owners are fighting this fight to make it so more teams can make a profit from their multi-million dollar investments.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

The reduction would be temporary at best as after 3 years they snap back to 57% HRR, some reduction. And if league revenues drop, players get their money, owners take the losses.

There's little reason for the players to take Bettman's offer but there's no reason for the owners to take Fehr's either.

First offer. Negotiation point. The owners didn't even read it, they countered the very same day meaning their counter was burning a hole in their binders.

 

[Riptide]

Wait a minute! This offer indicates NOTHING about decreasing the cap floor. Bettman has his "parity" phrase shoved up so far up his butt that he can't see that the way to move things forward in terms of allowing contracts to be maintained easier is to increase the ceiling and decrease the floor.

We've been hearing for YEARS that the poor teams need a lower cap floor but there's nothing about that from what I've seen. If I'm wrong then my mistake but it seems like all they're doing to fix the problem is increase revenue sharing and decrease salaries but not the actual floor.

The moment you lower the floor (further from the ceiling), parity goes out the window. The NHL is better now than it ever was 7 years ago. Part of that is because even crappy teams have to spend some money. This is good for the NHL, the fans and the players.

The plan is that a lower split and more RS will allow the majority of the teams to break even or post a profit.

 

[cbcwpg]

100% correct. If both sides were able to put egos aside and negotiate this deal would have been done months ago.

What pisses me off the most about the players is that they are fighting this fight because "it isn't right" that the owners "took money last time, so they shouldn't get to do it again." While they owners are fighting this fight to make it so more teams can make a profit from their multi-million dollar investments.

Interesting that a lot of the players that are saying it isn't right that the owners took money last time.... Weren't even playing when the last CBA was negotiated.

 

[albator71]

I'm not even saying allow re-negotiations. I'm saying the owners should honor the contracts they signed and slowly reduce the players percentage of HRR to 50 over two or three years.

Again, why is that so unreasonable?

If the owners did this, we would have a deal in place by the weekend.

It isn't rocket surgery to see why the players are pissed off.

you're right that's the key for reaching a deal imo,

 

[bluesfan94]

The reduction would be temporary at best as after 3 years they snap back to 57% HRR, some reduction. And if league revenues drop, players get their money, owners take the losses.

There's little reason for the players to take Bettman's offer but there's no reason for the owners to take Fehr's either.

Oh I agree, I was just pointing it out to pro-players Mr. Jiggyfly

 

[Riptide]

It's supposedly a six year deal. They can move to 50/50 by year three. As I keep saying, the players have said they are willing to drop down their share, but they are vehemently agt. rollbacks the first year.

But the owners insist it has to go to 50/50 right now.

And the players are being the unreasonable ones?

Ok...

The owners haven't insisted on anything. The PA is more than welcome to table an offer that goes 54, 52, 50, 50, etc. However they're too busy tabling crap offers that are all predicated on 1.87B+fixed raises.

 

[Kunta Kinte]

I was leading toward the owners since the beginning of the conflict, I have my reasons. But right now, if the PA doesn't counter with only "slight" and "minor" changes, they PA can go root in hell.

Disconnected with the reality.

 

[Raylaw21]

What does my username have to do with anything? I am a hockey fan. But I am also a business professional. I am not an expert but I like to think I know a thing or two about how business works.

I am anti-player when it comes to the business aspect of the sport. The hockey aspect is a whole separate entity.

They are one and the same in my mind. You need to stop comparing NHL players to regular workers. They are not the same and will not be paid like it!! The NHL is entertainment and people paid for it because they get enjoyment out of it. Same way people paid to go see the movies or go to concerts and such but to you see people complain that Tom Cruise made 60 million last year or that Taylor Swift made 80 million no? But they are one in the same. It is a lot better if you look at the NHL that way then as a regular job.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Cause these players are idiots. They are idiots when they speak to the media. They are idiots when they post on twitter. They are idiots when they try to tell us "they just want to play." They lack any real knowledge of economics. They lead a coup and fired Paul Kelly for no reason other than he was willing to engage in talks when they weren't negotiating with the NHL brass in order to keep things friendly rather than keep things antagonist like they were and are now. They willingly put Donald Fehr in charge. They are willing to blindly follow him and refuse to make up their own individual minds on these proposals.

All in all, **** the players. They make millions of dollars to play a game. They don't take any financial risk and are set for life solely because they are good at a sport, that I and all of us love and most of us pay money to play. They are unwilling to take a paycut when in real life many of us normal humans have had to either take a paycut or have been layed off because our companies are losing money.

Most importantly, many of them can't seem to understand the difference between revenues and profits and that really pisses me off.

You seem kind of jealous that they are paid to play hockey.

 

[Riptide]

The NHL didn't make a serious offer until yesterday. Fehr waited them out, now we will see if the owners or players are greedy.

And yet we're still waiting for the PA to make a serious offer....

 

[Riptide]

You have a lot to learn about how to negotiate fruitfully.

I guess you would of taken the league's second offer because Uncle Gary told you it wasn't going to get any better.

No. But I would have actually negotiated, instead of sitting on my hands with my thumb up my ass.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

They are one and the same in my mind. You need to stop comparing NHL players to regular workers. They are not the same and will not be paid like it!! The NHL is entertainment and people paid for it because they get enjoyment out of it. Same way people paid to go see the movies or go to concerts and such but to you see people complain that Tom Cruise made 60 million last year or that Taylor Swift made 80 million no? But they are one in the same. It is a lot better if you look at the NHL that way then as a regular job.

I don't "need to do anything." Just because they are paid a lot more on average than regular people doesn't mean they shouldn't be subject to paycuts when the business is struggling.

 

[Nalens Oga]

Lower cap = lower floor.

What happens if revenue goes up to $4 B 5 yrs from now? I doubt that Fla or Phx or Cbj etc will be making much more than they are now (Fla's a bad example I guess, they'll probably have some stars by then and be a playoff team which can break even).

 

[NinthSpoke06]

You seem kind of jealous that they are paid to play hockey.

Not jealous at all. Just like I'm not jealous at all over highly paid CEOs who run huge corporations. They have earned their way into big cash.

However, sometimes even the highly paid workers need to take a pay cut to make sure business doesn't go under.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

What happens if revenue goes up to $4 B 5 yrs from now? I doubt that Fla or Phx or Cbj etc will be making much more than they are now (Fla's a bad example I guess, they'll probably have some stars by then and be a playoff team which can break even).

Then the owners of those franchises should put those teams up for sale to an owner who is willing to go through the right hurdles to move those teams to more profitable markets.

 

[Phil Parent]

Per Ron Fournier on 98,5FM in Montreal who takes the info from Martin Maguire who is covering the PA meeting...

- Counter-offer tomorrow is official.
- Thought to be 52-48, 51-49, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50
- Players reject the "Make Whole" thing, want full contract value paid.
- Players want HRR as it was in last CBA