And really you could probably expand the definition of running QB to include guys like Staubach and Elway. You also have a slew of running QB's that made it to the Super Bowl but didn't win because winning the Super Bowl is hard.
OT: Bears & NFL Talk 89 - Nagy & Pace fired!
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Connor BeJesus
- Jan 10, 2012
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That's where I thought he was going with it too. And was just about to say Josh Allen killed his whole argument by winning last week.
BK
"Goalie Apologist"
And here is where we start getting the no true Scotsman argument. Just keep changing the definition of running QB until you get the answer you want. Staubach wasn't called Rodger the Dodger because he avoided the draft. Elway is still 10th all time in rushing yards by a quarterback and 5th in attempts. And he played when sacks counted against your rushing yards.
ClydeLee
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- Mar 23, 2012
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What's your standard of running QB then... its different to be able to run or be fast vs ability in pocket or need to run to be a success most games.
It's not to make a fake criteria, you took one and expanded on it.
Are Wilson, Rodgers, Mahomes running Qbs?
Was Trubisky, is Fields, is Allen? It's a situation of what they are doing in the pocket or do they need to run and roll out to have sustained success.
A QB that is mobile, can escape pressure, and make defenses have to respect their ability to run the ball. If we limit running QB's to essentially running backs playing QB, there's been like 3 in the history of the NFL. Kyler Murray averaged more passing yards per game than Cousins, Rodgers, and Garappolo this year. Somehow he's a running QB for some reason and I'll give you one guess as to what it is.
Kyler Murray has passed for over 3700 yards each season for 3 seasons, John Elway did that 3 times in 16 years. Murray (had he not missed games this year) would have attempted over 520 passing attempts each season for 3 years, Elway did that 3 times in 16 years. But Elway is of course a pure pocket passer and Murray is the running QB, weird.
ClydeLee
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If that is your criteria how many starters aren't running Qbs anymore?
I think your basis is rather weak. The key contrast is if you can preform from a pocket or need to, run be it roll out of designed run plays to be that threat. Because those guys typically play very badly forced unto staying in the pocket.
By your criteria you could almost call Brees a running qb.
Passing yards is so irrelevant to the topic, lots of mobile qbs play well with big passes in the system. It benefits their style. That is such an odd stat to go to to somehow not acknowledge their style difference
ClydeLee
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Are you just this disengenious or do you not know basic football changes of the past 30 years?
While I agree with this, I can definitely see where he's coming from. How is Kyler Murray a "running QB"? He's not.
The "black QBs can't get it done" is definitely a thing amongst a lot of football fans, too.
Right so what a running QB was back then is not the same as what it is now. But you can't say running quarterbacks didn't win 30 years ago, they did.
If you want to knock Kyler Murray its because he's short, not because he's not a good passer.
ClydeLee
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Yes... because Elway still was a pocket passer too.
Trubisky is a running qb, but when he was hurt or Nagy shifted to only make him a pocket passer he was even more terrible.
If you think Murray is bad set in the pocket because he is short, sure. But it's also because they don't focus him to develop in the pocket. But time and time again, guys who need mobility to succeed, decline when it's taken away by injury, good D design, or terrible offensive coaches.
BK
"Goalie Apologist"
BK
"Goalie Apologist"
He runs because he has the tools to run when given the chance. That doesn't make him a "running QB". I shook my head immediately when I read ndgt10's post, too. I figured either it was a really stupid post, or racist. Saying "these types of QBs" and then listing Lamar Jackson with Kyler Murray doesn't make much sense at all. As Illini said, it would have made much more sense to list Josh Allen.
Backyard Hockey
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Because Josh Allen can throw accurately from the pocket and read defenses.
Russell Wilson is a 'running/RPO' QB but he can also read defenses and make accurate throws from the pocket. Lamar has shown he can't. Kyler has at times, but we see bad Kyler too.
You can also throw Mitch in that bucket but he's not a starter.
Backyard Hockey
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Running QBs are a flash in the pan. We can list many. It's a tool in the arsenal but if they can't throw in the pocket and read defenses, they aren't complete playoff winning QBs.
I'll take a pocket passer who can read the D and throw accurately all day over - Brees, Brady, Manning, etc.
Russell Wilson is probably the best example of a best of both worlds, but it's rare for guys to both well. Allen has been great but need to see a larger body of work. Cam had a nice run for a stretch, but he too struggled in the pocket.
Backyard Hockey
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Steve Young and Russell Wilson were/are great pocket passers and can read defenses. Young one of the best of all time. They are pass first, run second. Best of both worlds.
Run first/RPO is fancy and flashy. It isn't enough if you can't read a D and throw accurately from the pocket. And usually your QB gets hurt.
I will take a QB who can read D and throw accurately from the pocket over a running QB any day. If you have one like a Josh Allen (who is succeeding over last 2 seasons), it's gravy, but that type of QB is rare and it usually doesn't last.
Backyard Hockey
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Completely different era. The best example of 'old school running QB' is Randall Cunningham.
Backyard Hockey
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Bears having 2nd interview with Colts DC Eberflus. I didn't watch a lot of Colts football. I do know they choked miserably and missed the post season.
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about this guy. Seems like an out of the box candidate, no?
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about this guy. Seems like an out of the box candidate, no?
Kaners Bald Spot
Registered User
The "running QBs" that are/were successful also had the ability to stand in the pocket and read defenses. The ones that haven't been are the one read types that would look for their primary receiver and take off or those that got hurt.
Quite frankly I think the biggest issue with QBs that have great running ability in the NFL today is that they get hurt at a similar rate to RBs. We're already seeing it a bit with Jackson. He was hurt most of the season.
Quite frankly I think the biggest issue with QBs that have great running ability in the NFL today is that they get hurt at a similar rate to RBs. We're already seeing it a bit with Jackson. He was hurt most of the season.
Blackhawkswincup
RIP Fugu
There are two types of mobile QB's
Running QB's and legit Duel Threat QB's
A Duel Threat can excel in both pocket and outside of pocket. A Running QB is a guy who peformance drops dramatically if you contain him to pocket and expose weaknesses such as accuracy/reading D's
Murray is a legit duel threat QB who can kill you with his arm or legs consistently. I would group him with guys like Josh Allen and Russell Wilson (Though he doesn't run as much as he used to) who succeed both inside the pocket and outside the pocket so they can take whatever
When I think of a running QB, Jalen Hurts is someone who comes to mind because he is pretty worthless if you take away his ability to run.
We saw same thing with Michael Vick who struggled against teams with athletic linebackers. Urlacher and Bears gave him trouble in some big games as well as other D's with athletic LB's who could take away his running options. Outside or running the only strenght Vick had at QB was his deep ball but most of the time that was when he was throwing out of pocket. When in pocket throwing deep his accuracy was pretty terrible.
Cam Newton is someone I would classify as running QB's because his passing was pretty terrible if you contain his outside running lanes. Jake Plummer is another guy who only really thrived outside of pocket (A major reason he had success in Shanahan offense was because of the bootleg)
For Bear fans the most famous example of guy who was only a running QB for Bears would be Bobby Douglas. Old timers and the stats will tell you he was f***ing terrible at throwing ball
As for Lamar Jackson. He regressed this year but had been improving as passing threat in previous years. I think book is still out on how he will ultimately end up as a QB (If he doesn't continue to improve as passer then Ravens will struggle to win a title with him at QB)
I think comparable potentially for Jackson going forward historically is Randall Cunningham who is good example of a running QB who's accuracy as passer was issue in his youth/prime but who became a better passing QB as he lost his running ability/altered his game after many injuries that derailed his career
The Randall Cunningham of Vikes was a completely different QB then guy who electrified as Eagle. Cunningham was mostly a pocket passer with Vikes and his accuracy improvement allowed him to continue his career
I know Jackson has size but someone who runs and takes those hits as much as he does is always going to be at risk. Same with Josh Allen who takes too many hits he should be avoiding
Running QB's and legit Duel Threat QB's
A Duel Threat can excel in both pocket and outside of pocket. A Running QB is a guy who peformance drops dramatically if you contain him to pocket and expose weaknesses such as accuracy/reading D's
Murray is a legit duel threat QB who can kill you with his arm or legs consistently. I would group him with guys like Josh Allen and Russell Wilson (Though he doesn't run as much as he used to) who succeed both inside the pocket and outside the pocket so they can take whatever
When I think of a running QB, Jalen Hurts is someone who comes to mind because he is pretty worthless if you take away his ability to run.
We saw same thing with Michael Vick who struggled against teams with athletic linebackers. Urlacher and Bears gave him trouble in some big games as well as other D's with athletic LB's who could take away his running options. Outside or running the only strenght Vick had at QB was his deep ball but most of the time that was when he was throwing out of pocket. When in pocket throwing deep his accuracy was pretty terrible.
Cam Newton is someone I would classify as running QB's because his passing was pretty terrible if you contain his outside running lanes. Jake Plummer is another guy who only really thrived outside of pocket (A major reason he had success in Shanahan offense was because of the bootleg)
For Bear fans the most famous example of guy who was only a running QB for Bears would be Bobby Douglas. Old timers and the stats will tell you he was f***ing terrible at throwing ball
As for Lamar Jackson. He regressed this year but had been improving as passing threat in previous years. I think book is still out on how he will ultimately end up as a QB (If he doesn't continue to improve as passer then Ravens will struggle to win a title with him at QB)
I think comparable potentially for Jackson going forward historically is Randall Cunningham who is good example of a running QB who's accuracy as passer was issue in his youth/prime but who became a better passing QB as he lost his running ability/altered his game after many injuries that derailed his career
The Randall Cunningham of Vikes was a completely different QB then guy who electrified as Eagle. Cunningham was mostly a pocket passer with Vikes and his accuracy improvement allowed him to continue his career
I know Jackson has size but someone who runs and takes those hits as much as he does is always going to be at risk. Same with Josh Allen who takes too many hits he should be avoiding
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Blackhawkswincup
RIP Fugu
Cam showed what?
He was pretty shitty passer most of his career and was guy who struggled if you took away his running options and forced him to throw from pocket
Cam had awful accuracy on short and medium throws
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