Barzal vs Hischier + Zacha

[Riseonfire]

I'll take the better #13 now, and going forward.

 

[PullHard]

eh it depends if barzal last year is the actual barzal then him if not then nico+zacha.
Nico might be one of the better two way top picks in awhile, other then matthews cant think of a recent top 3 pick that had a notable two way game as a prospect, and hes shown it in the big league too.

Barkov?

 

[Tripod]

Hischier vs Patrick is actually interesting here. I think "since the end of January" is kind of a goofy argument, because it's like "oh, well if we use a smaller sample size" sorta deal, but Patrick scored 60% of the points in 75% of the minutes. If Patrick got 1/3 more points because he got 1/3 more minutes, which would have him at Hischier's ice time, all of a sudden he's at 40 points on the year. Granted, Hischier's 5on5 pts/hour numbers are way better (2.0 primary points/2.4 total points for Hischer to 1.0 primary points/1.5 total points for Patrick). Hischier also had a better oiSH% at 10.8% to 7%, which isn't gonna keep itself up. Then there's the fact that Hischier played 80% of his 5on5 minutes with Taylor Hall, and Patrick played half his minutes with Voracek/Simmonds (honestly have no idea if that was together or if it was that one of them was on the ice with him most of his time this season, a Flyers fan could clarify), and then doesn't really have anyone super-regular, but the other forwards he played 100+ minutes with are Weal, Lindblom, Weise, and Konecny, so it's hardly a group of world-beaters there.

A lot of noise in judging rookies by numbers. That's the main thing. I don't know if development really diverges as much as people think, or if it's just that after just one season, it's really hard to parse things like shooting luck, teammates, usage, etc, especially with no long-term reputation, and with these kids usually getting less ice time than they will at 22. I assume Hischier is a lot better because he looks a lot better, but I'm interested to see how they both come along.

I mention the "from Jan onward", so people can understand that Patrick improved immensely thru the season.

People have to remember, Patrick did not train for 2 straight summers. And he played his last year of Jr with 2 hernia's at times, and one the whole season. It took until Jan for him to get his speed back. Again, he was a totally different player.

9 points in first 40 games....18 point pace
22 points in last 33 games....55 point pace

I have stated that I see Nico as a 70-80 point guy. So I think highly as him as well. As for Patrick, that 55 point pace showed that he could play at that level based on natural talent and no offseason training. This summer should be a great one for him since he was able to train all summer for the 1st time in 3 years. I will be very disappointed if he did not take advantage of it. Patrick will see a 10-15 point swing in points depending what PP he plays on. Just like how Couturier went from 2 PP points to 14 once on the top unit.

 

[Jester9881]

Are you from the future?

He's from the same place as the people who are saying Hischier will be on par with Barzal in a few years based on their 18yo seasons.

 

[goonybird]

Hischier is younger, stronger, and better at the game even if he doesn't currently score as much. I think there's a high likelihood that he improves his scoring and remains a Selke-calibre centreman

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Keep thinking Barzal was more impressive in the WHL then Hischier in the NHL at 18 lmfao

I never said that. I said it's not a fact that Hischier was better. Not surprising that you can't see the difference.

Also, you didn't answer my question about a hypothetical 200 point WHL season.

Barzal was so impressive he didn't even make his team's stsrting roster the next year!

The Islanders made the right call in not rushing Barzal, they gain nothing by rushing him before they could be competitive. He definitely was good enough to have made that team lol.

I'm telling you, you don't understand how good Barzal was at 18. He absolutely dominated the play whenever he was on the ice - patrolling the zone, skating the puck wherever he'd like. Just like he does now:



If he were to have played in the NHL at 18 he'd have potted 55-65 points IMO. I don't know if he was better than Hischier but it's definitely not clear either way.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Sure, sure: Barzal wasn’t rushed thats what it was. No possible way its because he wasnt ready.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Sure, sure: Barzal wasn’t rushed thats what it was. No possible way its because he wasnt ready.

You don't go from "not ready to play in the NHL" to posting a dominant 85 point season in 1 year. Sorry.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Barzal was so impressive he didn't even make his team's stsrting roster the next year!

He did though...

 

[Cheddabombs]

Some people really don't understand that progression isn't always linear.

Definitely. Which is why I'm very confused that the 21 year old center also in this poll counts for literally nothing. I get he has hasn't had a good first few seasons in the league but he showed signs of improvement last year, and again, is only 21. He can still improve to be a good #2 center, while Nico can be a #1 center on par with Barzal.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

He did though...

He played less than 10 games. That isnt making the starting roster

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

You don't go from "not ready to play in the NHL" to posting a dominant 85 point season in 1 year. Sorry.

So that automatically means Barzal was better than Hischier at 18?

Spit it out bud, quit playing both sides of the fence. We get it, you think Barzal did better in the WHL at 18 then Hischier did in the NHL at 18. Otherwise youre just arguing to argue in which case have a good one!

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Barkov?

Yeah so that's what Matthews, barkov and Nico who showed something soon after in the NHL, 3 players in 5 years, and if we go back further even less common.

If Nico is 70 point two way beast, all zach has to do is be a middle six player and they are probably better IMHO.

 

[Strait2thecup]

Hischier is younger, stronger, and better at the game even if he doesn't currently score as much. I think there's a high likelihood that he improves his scoring and remains a Selke-calibre centreman

In what way is he stronger? Don’t really care about your post otherwise but you’re blantantly making that up.

How are you quantifying strong here?

 

[LordNeverLose]

He played less than 10 games. That isnt making the starting roster

I mean ... he made the starting roster lol. It's pretty cut and dry.

 

[Blender]

The Islanders decided not to rush a 16th overall pick, and that season had 45 wins and 100 points, and started the season with John Tavares, Frans Nielsen, Mihail Grabovski, and Casey Cizikas as the centers on the roster. Hischier was the first pick, and while the Devils actually came close to the 2016 Islanders, and played fine, no other center on the roster cracked 30 points, and Brian Boyle was going to miss time with cancer. Fair to mention that Travis Zajac missed time, but he's looked cooked for a while now. Hell, even his 40+ point seasons seem like "he gets ice time on a terrible team" sorta deal. He hasn't topped either 20 goals, or 50 points since 2010. There's also Adam Henrique, who started with the Devils, but like, especially if you're missing Boyle, you can't say no to the 1OA because your center depth goes Henrique-Zajac-Zacha-...Gibbons or Coleman?

Your argument here is mostly based on draft position. Players are wayyy more likely to be given a shot if they were a higher pick. Hischier was from a weak draft, Barzal went behind at least a half dozen guys who are already legitimate stars (McDavid, Eichel, Marner, Provorov, Werenski, and Rantanen), and it's not really his fault he didn't get kept up. It's harder to judge right now, given that Hischier is 20 months younger than Barzal, but it's not flatly unfair to argue that someone's 18 year old WHL season is more indicative of future success than someone's 18 year old NHL season.

(That said, if you use NHLe, which is a rough-math sorta thing that tells you about how many points you'd expect from a guy playing outside the NHL had he played in the NHL, I've got Barzal's 18 y/o season in Seattle at about 37 points, but the translation [30% of the points/game] may be off, teammates/ice time can still throw this very simple/only decently indicative metric off, and I actually don't know for sure if the translation factor takes into account that a player going to the NHL from junior is a year older at a high-development age, and if it doesn't, then you'd actually expect Barzal to score 37 at 19 based on his 18 year old season, rather than 37 had he played in the NHL at 18 - but clearly the metric isn't perfect, since his last junior season would have predicted 47 points.)

NHLe doesn't predict a players performance as if they were playing in another league at the same age, it predicts the next seasons performance. Barzal scored 57 points in 44 games in 14-15 (his draft season), which using an NHLe of 0.30 would predict a 32 points in 82 games D+1 season in the NHL. You used his 15-16 (D+1) season, which predicts 37 points in his D+2 season in the NHL.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I mean ... he made the starting roster lol. It's pretty cut and dry.

What are you on about

Barzal did not play 10 games his first season in the NHL. That is not a starting roster spot. He never started in the NHL until last season

 

[LordNeverLose]

What are you on about

Barzal did not play 10 games his first season in the NHL. That is not a starting roster spot. He never started in the NHL until last season

He was on the starting roster. I'm not sure how you're struggling with this.

 

[kk87]

Hischier and Barzal are both studs, and will both probably peak in the 10-20 range as centres. I think Barzal has a higher ceiling however, and Zacha does nothing to tip the scales

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

He was on the starting roster. I'm not sure how you're struggling with this.

Haha okay, if you say so buddy

Today we learned NHL starters are just anyone whos ever played a game. Guess the Islanders have had a starting goalie all along!

 

[LordNeverLose]

Haha okay, if you say so buddy

Today we learned NHL starters are just anyone whos ever played a game. Guess the Islanders have had a starting goalie all along!

Starting roster = roster at the start of the season

Barzal was on that in his D+2 season.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Starting roster = roster at the start of the season

Barzal was on that in his D+2 season.

Yeah we get it you like to wordsmith

Barzal wasnt an NHL regular until he was 20. Hischier was at 18. Theres the distinction youve been dancing around for a day now

 

[LordNeverLose]

Yeah we get it you like to wordsmith

Barzal wasnt an NHL regular until he was 20. Hischier was at 18. Theres the distinction youve been dancing around for a day now

Yeah I'm just saying you aren't phrasing it right. Barzal was on the starting roster.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Yeah I'm just saying you aren't phrasing it right. Barzal was on the starting roster.

I reckon thats fair enough!

Now lets say a prayer for Tavares to never win a cup, together

 

[goonybird]

In what way is he stronger? Don’t really care about your post otherwise but you’re blantantly making that up.

How are you quantifying strong here?

by being stronger