Barkov or Matthews?

[BAM]

Right now Barkov is clearly ahead of Matthews as a player. Will Matthews get there? Maybe. Maybe he won't. Matthews will develop but Barkov is not a finished product either.

One of the reasons Barkov is so great is he can handle those heavy minutes, Matthews can't, atleast not yet.

Since 2013-2014 Barkov has 4.62 GA/60 on the PK. Here's some other players GA/60 from those years. Kopitar 6.31, Bergeron 6.08, Tavares 8.82.

There's a difference in not being able to play a lot of minutes vs not being given the chance to. Matthews could very well be able to handle those kind of minutes, he's way better than Barkov comparing them at similar ages. Matthews has no bearing over how Babcock deploys his minutes, if Barkov was on the Leafs, he wouldn't be playing the amount of minutes he does now.

And yet they finished 16th on the pk last year, like I said, can't really brag about a player's ice time on the pk when that pk isn't really great to begin with. If the Panthers were top 10 or top 5 then that would show something. Them being 16th last year with Barkov on the pk doesn't really show much. The Leafs faired much better with guys like Hyman, Brown and Komorov instead of Barkov.

 

[LeafsNation75]

There's a difference in not being able to play a lot of minutes vs not being given the chance to. Matthews could very well be able to handle those kind of minutes, he's way better than Barkov comparing them at similar ages. Matthews has no bearing over how Babcock deploys his minutes, if Barkov was on the Leafs, he wouldn't be playing the amount of minutes he does now.

And yet they finished 16th on the pk last year, like I said, can't really brag about a player's ice time on the pk when that pk isn't really great to begin with. If the Panthers were top 10 or top 5 then that would show something. Them being 16th last year with Barkov on the pk doesn't really show much. The Leafs faired much better with guys like Hyman, Brown and Komorov instead of Barkov.

Plus this season Babcock will have something new on the penalty kill with Tavares and Marner playing together on it, so at the very least they will have a greater chance to score shorthanded.

 

[LeafsNation75]

One example of where others on here went with a player 2 years younger is when Tavares was compared against Seguin this past summer after both signed their new long term 7 and 8 year contracts. There was a fair amount of people who said Seguin because he was 2 years younger than Tavares.

 

[GodEmperor]

Forgetting contracts, this is Matthews without much problem.

With contracts I am 100% fine with the poll and if Barkov ran away with it.

5-6 extra million gets you a lot in today's NHL and Matthews isn't Barkov+a good 5-6 million player.

If we're just comparing players, there is no way it is Barkov, Matthews might be slightly worse defensively in year 3 v Barkov's year 6, but his offensive ceiling crushes Barkovs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I thought you got annoyed when I respond to you without addressing 100% of your arguments, yet here you are addressing none of mine

Kind of annoying, isn't it?

 

[goblin3]

There's a difference in not being able to play a lot of minutes vs not being given the chance to. Matthews could very well be able to handle those kind of minutes, he's way better than Barkov comparing them at similar ages. Matthews has no bearing over how Babcock deploys his minutes, if Barkov was on the Leafs, he wouldn't be playing the amount of minutes he does now.

And yet they finished 16th on the pk last year, like I said, can't really brag about a player's ice time on the pk when that pk isn't really great to begin with. If the Panthers were top 10 or top 5 then that would show something. Them being 16th last year with Barkov on the pk doesn't really show much. The Leafs faired much better with guys like Hyman, Brown and Komorov instead of Barkov.

Use your brain, it's not that hard to see why a player in his d+6 year has had more development than a player in his d+3 year, all you have to do is look at Barkov's first 2 years. He wasn't the player he is now.
Matthews' wingers in his career have been Hyman, Brown and Nylander. Outside of Nylander he hasn't exactly had winger support either. Especially with Hyman and Brown who are blackholes offensively. Matthews doesn't need to play pk because the Leafs have bottom 6 forwards that can handle that role. Babcock doesn't overplay any of his forwards, he listens heavily to the Leafs sports science department. JT plays pk because it allows for more minutes to be spread around AM, JT and NK. They all will probably play 18 minutes each so obviously with JT's pk experience he gets extra minutes on the pk.

The Leafs have had a top 10 pk the last 2 years without Matthews on it, whereas Barkov was on the 16th ranked pk unit in the league last year. Average...and all you've done is burnout your best player while you team was short-handed. What's the point of bragging about Barkov being on the pk when it doesn't even lead to results that are more than average. The Leafs have the better pk and they don't need to risk their best player blocking shots because they have guys like Hyman, Brown, Kapanen and in the past Komorov that fill the role just fine.

Which one is it?

Hyman 5.56, Brown 6.59, Kapanen 8.94 GA/60.

Panthers PK, average. Panthers PK with Barkov on the ice, one of the best.

 

[Sojourn]

One example of where others on here went with a player 2 years younger is when Tavares was compared against Seguin this past summer after both signed their new long term 7 and 8 year contracts. There was a fair amount of people who said Seguin because he was 2 years younger than Tavares.

You're comparing two different situations here, and trying to apply them in the same manner.

That two year different between Seguin and Tavares is the difference between being 4 years away from 30, and 2 years away from 30. Without actually seeing the discussion, I'd be willing to bet that the 2 year argument for Seguin over Tavares had a lot to do with getting more of Seguin in his prime years, while Tavares is, potentially, closer to leaving his.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You're comparing two different situations here, and trying to apply them in the same manner.

That two year different between Seguin and Tavares is the difference between being 4 years away from 30, and 2 years away from 30. Without actually seeing the discussion, I'd be willing to bet that the 2 year argument for Seguin over Tavares had a lot to do with getting more of Seguin in his prime years, while Tavares is, potentially, closer to leaving his.

I don't see it that way because let's say Seguin didn't sign that extension he would have become a UFA just 1 year later after Tavares. So to say he would be entering his prime years and Tavares is closer to leaving his is false. I mean when Tavares signed on TSN and Sportsnet they said it's extremely rare when a player of Tavares caliber signs as a UFA and mentioned he was entering the prime of his career.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

This is easy, Barkov. - shouldn't even be close -
Matthews is great, but Barkov is just so much better.

 

[Sojourn]

I don't see it that way because let's say Seguin didn't sign that extension he would have become a UFA just 1 year later after Tavares. So to say he would be entering his prime years and Tavares is closer to leaving his is false. I mean when Tavares signed on TSN and Sportsnet they said it's extremely rare when a player of Tavares caliber signs as a UFA and mentioned he was entering the prime of his career.

They're being generous. 28 is not when forwards enter their prime.

It could potentially be the best stretch of Tavares' career, if things work well for him in Toronto, but that's different. Forwards don't typically enter their prime at 28. Not even close. If he entered his prime then, he would be an outlier.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Kind of annoying, isn't it?

No it's cool

 

[BAM]

Which one is it?

Hyman 5.56, Brown 6.59, Kapanen 8.94 GA/60.

Panthers PK, average. Panthers PK with Barkov on the ice, one of the best.

Why are you using GA/60 lmao, we're talking about pk's as a whole. The Leafs have been top 10 the past 2 years without using their best players, the Panthers were 16th. We're talking about their units, Barkov doesn't kill penalties by himself.

 

[goblin3]

Why are you using GA/60 lmao, we're talking about pk's as a whole. The Leafs have been top 10 the past 2 years without using their best players, the Panthers were 16th. We're talking about their units, Barkov doesn't kill penalties by himself.

What? I'm talking about how Barkov excels on the PK. How is it Barkov's fault the PK is not as good when he's not on the ice?

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Forgetting contracts, this is Matthews without much problem.

With contracts I am 100% fine with the poll and if Barkov ran away with it.

5-6 extra million gets you a lot in today's NHL and Matthews isn't Barkov+a good 5-6 million player.

If we're just comparing players, there is no way it is Barkov, Matthews might be slightly worse defensively in year 3 v Barkov's year 6, but his offensive ceiling crushes Barkovs.

Its nice to talk about the future, the ceilings and what not,
those things actually need to happen before you can talk about who's better offensively.
Facts are on the table, ppg's, number of goals, or what not won't matter,fact is;Matthews is yet to brake 70 points in his career.

Matthews is just not par with Barkov, every thing considered,only thing where Matthews trumps Barkov is goal scoring.
-there isn't a player in the NHL who has softer/quicker mittens what Barkov, smooth skater, not the fastest, but no slowpokes either,
natural born talent: Barkov > Matthews

Points wisely Barkov is just giving hints of his true numbers, expect him to improve significantly this season in that department.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

At the current time the correct answer is Barkov. There’s really no objective way to choose Matthews. Matthews may get there but he’s not there yet.

 

[BAM]

What? I'm talking about how Barkov excels on the PK. How is it Barkov's fault the PK is not as good when he's not on the ice?

Because you're bragging about someone that plays on the pk when it's not good as a whole. Who cares what Barkov's pk numbers are individually if his pk unit still sucks. All you have is Barkov exhausted and the moment he steps off the ice the other team scores anyways. The Leafs unit doesn't feature Matthews, Marner or Nylander up until this season and they're top 10. And when the pk is over, they have a fully rested Matthews, Marner or Nylander ready to take the ice vs Barkov being on the bench and the Panthers getting scored on regardless.

 

[GodEmperor]

Its nice to talk about the future, the ceilings and what not,
those things actually need to happen before you can talk about who's better offensively.
Facts are on the table, ppg's, number of goals, or what not won't matter,fact is;Matthews is yet to brake 70 points in his career.

Matthews is just not par with Barkov, every thing considered,only thing where Matthews trumps Barkov is goal scoring.
-there isn't a player in the NHL who has softer/quicker mittens what Barkov, smooth skater, not the fastest, but no slowpokes either,
natural born talent: Barkov > Matthews

Points wisely Barkov is just giving hints of his true numbers, expect him to improve significantly this season in that department.

Looked at the location, was all I needed to know.

Yeah a guy that scored 40 in his first year (first time in a decade that was done as a rookie), went ppg in his 2nd and did this while not getting the same TOI/PP TOI and being anchored to the 3rd/4th line plug Hyman doesn't have as much talent as a guy that hasn't scored 30 in his first 5 years or even gone actual ppg yet.

Lay off the Koff Pekka.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Facts are on the table, ppg's, number of goals, or what not won't matter,fact is;Matthews is yet to brake 70 points in his career.

Another fact is Matthews already reached 40 goals in his rookie year which is his seasons best, where as Barkov in his 5 seasons has never reached 40 goals or even 30 goals. His best season for totals goals scored is 27.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Looked at the location, was all I needed to know.

Yeah a guy that scored 40 in his first year (first time in a decade that was done as a rookie), went ppg in his 2nd and did this while not getting the same TOI/PP TOI and being anchored to the 3rd/4th line plug Hyman doesn't have as much talent as a guy that hasn't scored 30 in his first 5 years or even gone actual ppg yet.

Lay off the Koff Pekka.

Who is Pekka and what is Koff? "looked at location"? - right-
Then i could say; North American? (i assume you are either American or Canadian), figures....i mean i could, but i won't/wouldn't.

 

[Sojourn]

Another fact is Matthews already reached 40 goals in his rookie year which is his seasons best, where as Barkov in his 5 seasons has never reached 40 goals or even 30 goals. His best season for totals goals scored is 27.

He had 51 assists last season.

Barkov is a puck distributor.

 

[LeafsNation75]

He had 51 assists last season.

Barkov is a puck distributor.

Look if others want to call out Matthews for not yet having at least 70 points, I can call out Barkov for not having a 30 or 40 goal season.

 

[GodEmperor]

Who is Pekka and what is Koff? "looked at location"? - right-
Then i could say; North American? (i assume you are either American or Canadian), figures....i mean i could, but i won't/wouldn't.

You have no argument, you literally said that a guy who hasn't scored 30 goals in 5 years or even hit ppg yet is more talented than a guy who scored 40 in his rookie year (half of which was with 4th liners) and went ppg in his second year.

Sorry if it bothers you that your tribalism is so apparent.

 

[Sojourn]

Look if others want to call out Matthews for not yet having at least 70 points, I can call out Barkov for not having a 30 or 40 goal season.

You can try, but that just means Barkov isn't a goal scorer. That's not really a knock on him. Different players bring different attributes to the table. Barkov is a much better puck distributor than Matthews is. Matthews is a better goal scorer. They play different games.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Another fact is Matthews already reached 40 goals in his rookie year which is his seasons best, where as Barkov in his 5 seasons has never reached 40 goals or even 30 goals. His best season for totals goals scored is 27.

How much, many points (this super two-way center) Barkov scored again? and how many points Matthews scored.
A: 78 A: 63| 78 v 63 (yes, i know, he played in 62 games). 78 points is still higher number what 63.

Silly thing to argue thou, the other one says how much better he is at goal scoring, the other, well, i hardly think i need to repeat myself.

 

[Chef de Cuisine]

Matthews