Ansar Khan: Babcock to Weiss: Do it Right or You'll Hate the Coach

[FlashyG]

My guess is that as good as Hossa has been .. Chicago is seriously considering the same option.

Are you suggesting Chicago is seriously considering buying out Hossa?

If they are, then they will need to petition the league for a 3rd compliance buyout. They used both of theirs this offseason.

Also Hossa isn't a Wing because he didn't take the offer he was given (worth slightly more than Franzen's cap hit but less than what he got from Chicago).

Franzen provides a lot of what Hossa does at a lower price and he's Swedish so that instantly makes him more valuable to the team.

 

[Crymson]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/red_wings_mike_babcock_on_step.html

This may or may not explain why Flip left -- and how, for some reason, the Red Wings didn't ever seem interested in keeping him or Flip didn't seem interested in staying.

Coach maybe got tired of Flip not being assertive or competitive enough.

It jives with what my friend said about Flip absolutely hating Babcock (said the same about Franzen)

And if that's true -- buying out Franzen may have more legs than people think.

Filppula never lacked for effort, and there is no indication that he was disinterested in remaining with the team. He is gone because his salary demands were absurd. Holland was not willing to pay him what he wanted, and Yzerman was, so now Filppula plays for the Lightning and not the Red Wings.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Are you suggesting Chicago is seriously considering buying out Hossa?

If they are, then they will need to petition the league for a 3rd compliance buyout. They used both of theirs this offseason.

Also Hossa isn't a Wing because he didn't take the offer he was given (worth slightly more than Franzen's cap hit but less than what he got from Chicago).

Franzen provides a lot of what Hossa does at a lower price and he's Swedish so that instantly makes him more valuable to the team.

Chicago is going to have to do something with Hossa and he doesn't have a NTC. Crawford's contract was a death sentence on Hossa, I just don't see anyway around that. They severely overpaid their goalie and Kane and Toews are going to get raises at some-point. Somebody big is going to have to leave, I would think it's Hossa.

 

[Roy S]

Franzen goals and pts per game since 07-08:

07-08: .38 G/pg, .53 pts/pg
08-09: .48 G/pg, .83 pts/pg
09-10: .37 G/pg, .78 pts/pg
10-11: .37 G/pg, .72 pts/pg
11-12: .38 G/pg, .73 pts/pg
12-13: .34 G/pg, .76 pts/pg

Since 09-10, he's 29th in goals per game, 48th in pts per game and 18th in +-.

I also don't see an argument possible where the Wings thought Franzen was better than Hossa or even prioritized Franzen over Hossa. He was just the one who signed first after both were offered contracts and there were reports last season that Hossa preferred the Hawks and went their willingly. They clearly had the brighter future so that was a good decision by him. There was also a $20 million difference between Franzen and Hossa's contract- of course Hossa was expected to be the better player.

If Hossa would have signed, it would have been guys like Cleary or Flip that would have been moved to make room. Making it Franzen vs Hossa is a false dichotomy.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I cannot believe they traded Oates for Federko.

Well, there's a can of warms opened

The signing of Crawford makes me believe if healthy Hossa is going to be bought out after this season anyway, if he is even healthy enough to be, which has to be a huge concern in Chicago if that is a part of the plan.

Might be, and depends on how his season goes, I guess..

But imo, Hawks have the best chance to win now, when Sharp, Keith and Seabs are still in their prime (Toews and Kane will be for long time) so Hossa at little over 5 mil is excellent for them, not going to find replacement at UFA for that price.

As is there is an excellent chance both these guys are free agents next year. I hope we don't sign Hossa then either. Especially with guys like Vanek likely on the market as I don't think he will sign an extension.

Reportedly, Vanek has said that he hasn't asked for trade and could go through short rebuild or something like that with Sabres.. fwiw ofc.

If Vanek his UFA, I think Minnesota is going to get him.. memories of Suter lol.

The best chance to get him would be going hard after him at TDL.. but the price is high for div. rival and Wings have little to no cap space.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Will say to the point of this thread, Weiss is a lot more willing to play in traffic and up the middle than Filppula. That part of his game isn't in question and I got to (was forced to) see a lot of Panthers hockey when I was living in Florida for a year.

He has a much better compete level.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Are you suggesting Chicago is seriously considering buying out Hossa?

If they are, then they will need to petition the league for a 3rd compliance buyout. They used both of theirs this offseason.

Damn, forgot that.

So they are going with Hossa till the end, most likely.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Damn, forgot that.

So they are going with Hossa till the end, most likely.

LTIR retirement is their worst case scenario. Hawks have nothing to worry about.

I wish we had Hossa instead of Franzen. One doesn't disappear completely if he is held off the stat sheet.

 

[SoupNazi]

Will say to the point of this thread, Weiss is a lot more willing to play in traffic and up the middle than Filppula. That part of his game isn't in question and I got to (was forced to) see a lot of Panthers hockey when I was living in Florida for a year.

He has a much better compete level.

He does. And there's not a question. And that's the best reason why you can say Weiss was a better signing than re-signing Filppula would have been.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Chicago is going to have to do something with Hossa and he doesn't have a NTC. Crawford's contract was a death sentence on Hossa, I just don't see anyway around that. They severely overpaid their goalie and Kane and Toews are going to get raises at some-point. Somebody big is going to have to leave, I would think it's Hossa.

1) They didn't severely overpay their goalie. Anymore than the Wings overpaid Howard.
2) Getting bought out isn't a death sentence. If I was a player who'd won two cups in 4 years, i'd happily take my $25M buy out check and go sign a 4 year, $20M contract to play somewhere else I wanted to play.

As a Wings fan, I'd consider paying Hossa 3 years, $5.5 to $6M next offseason-- assuming we dumped Franzen.

 

[InjuredChoker]

LTIR retirement is their worst case scenario. Hawks have nothing to worry about.

I wish we had Hossa instead of Franzen. One doesn't disappear completely if he is held off the stat sheet.

There is that too.

I think that is the plan B with Z. Doubt his back would pass physical even now.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Making it Franzen vs Hossa is a false dichotomy.

That's not a false dichotomy.

Ken Holland wasn't moving NTC Dan Cleary.
Conservative Kenny also wasn't about to trade Val Filppula.

Those guys were part of the longer term plan.

That offseason was tricky. You had 5 free agent forwards
1) Zetterberg. 2) Hossa 3) Franzen, 4) Samuelsson 5) Hudler (RFA)

Holland spoke as if he was somehow going to keep Hossa and Franzen after signing Zetterberg.

But after signing Zetterberg, he went to work to sign Franzen. And once he signed Franzen -- Hossa became next to impossible.

It's like this year. It was Flip or Weiss (or Lecavalier or Grabovski).
That was the position.

Or it was Alfredsson or Brunner.

You can use internet debating 101 phrases like "false dichotomy" but these were the realistic choices.

Franzen costs you Hossa.
Weiss costs you Filppula
Alfredsson costs you Brunner.

Now, today -- people are OK with saying they're happy with Weiss over Flip and Alfredsson over Brunner.

We'll see 2-3 years from now if they back away from their statements and start calling this framing a "false dichotomy"

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Damn, forgot that.

So they are going with Hossa till the end, most likely.

Who were the two buyouts?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Who were the two buyouts?

Montador and Olesz

 

[Bench]

He does. And there's not a question. And that's the best reason why you can say Weiss was a better signing than re-signing Filppula would have been.

The team gets more compete level, but also you've got to shuffle the deck occasionally. Keeping Filppula for another 5 years basically says you're committed to the virtually the exact same top 6 lineup from 2008 to 2017. Franzen, Datsyuk, Filppula, Zetterberg. Let that sink in.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Is this another Hossa vs. Franzen debate I see on the horizon?

 

[TKB]

Are you suggesting Chicago is seriously considering buying out Hossa?

If they are, then they will need to petition the league for a 3rd compliance buyout. They used both of theirs this offseason.

Also Hossa isn't a Wing because he didn't take the offer he was given (worth slightly more than Franzen's cap hit but less than what he got from Chicago).

Franzen provides a lot of what Hossa does at a lower price and he's Swedish so that instantly makes him more valuable to the team.

I would have to disagree with this quite strongly. Hossa is a beast. When he is not scoring he still contributes...in a major way.

I was all for signing Franzen ahead of Hossa based on the" intangible benefit" of of taking care of "your" guy, but I can't help but notice that when the Hawks faced the same dilemma re Havlat, they made a decision (apparently at Scotty's behest as Dale Tallon had a deal set with Havlat) to bring in Hossa and let Havlat walk.

Two cups later the decsion speaks for itself.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

1) They didn't severely overpay their goalie. Anymore than the Wings overpaid Howard.
2) Getting bought out isn't a death sentence. If I was a player who'd won two cups in 4 years, i'd happily take my $25M buy out check and go sign a 4 year, $20M contract to play somewhere else I wanted to play.

As a Wings fan, I'd consider paying Hossa 3 years, $5.5 to $6M next offseason-- assuming we dumped Franzen.

Crawford makes more than Howard or Quick. Keep in mind Ray Emery put up more favorable numbers than him behind that team.

That is a terrible deal, if you're unhappy about the Howard deal you should be gagging at the Crawford deal.

Since you don't credit Osgood with much, don't start with the Cup argument here either.

Whatever enjoy that glove hand at six million a year Chicago, that was a brutal deal.

 

[SoupNazi]

Is this another Hossa vs. Franzen debate I see on the horizon?

It was on the horizon two pages ago.

 

[SoupNazi]

The team gets more compete level, but also you've got to shuffle the deck occasionally. Keeping Filppula for another 5 years basically says you're committed to the virtually the exact same top 6 lineup from 2008 to 2017. Franzen, Datsyuk, Filppula, Zetterberg. Let that sink in.

Exactly. After a while the top 6 becomes predictable and easy to shut down if 2/3 remains the same. Shaking things up is the only way to stay competitive and I really think people are going to be surprised by how well Weiss does this season.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

On the whole Blackhawks cap thing with extending Hammer (yeah not going to look up the appropriate spelling, even if using their nicknames bothers me) the Hawks are now almost at 60 million in cap with 14 players signed next year. Even if you think the cap is going up a lot this is a huge problem, I don't get what they are doing.

They also have 41 million committed to seven players the following year and this doesn't include both Kane and Toews who are 8 million dollar plus free agents, Saad will also be an RFA that summer. They are right back in serious cap hell. They are going to have to figure some things out.

Plus the fun part of 8 of those guys have NMC, NTC or modified NTC.

They are in some big trouble in terms of their financials even if the cap shoots up and they need it to, some people are going to have to leave. They also should be fairly easy to target in RFA deals without a great deal of fear of reprisal.

 

[Bench]

Like last time, they'll have to jettison some top talent. It was Buff, Versteeg, Ladd, Niemi and Campbell after the 2010 Cup. I might even be missing somebody. Lots of strong players had to be let go.

They'll have to shed more guys and hope the kids can fill the gaps. A down year might happen again, but they are likely confident they will bounce back. Pretty sure they are thinking, "Well it worked out really well last time!"

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Like last time, they'll have to jettison some top talent. It was Buff, Versteeg, Ladd, Niemi and Campbell after the 2010 Cup. I might even be missing somebody. Lots of strong players had to be let go.

They'll have to shed more guys and hope the kids can fill the gaps. A down year might happen again, but they are likely confident they will bounce back. Pretty sure they are thinking, "Well it worked out really well last time!"

As long as the team is committed to keeping elite talent and not overspending on dime-a-dozen guys, they'll be fine.

They've got some good, young, inexpensive players ready to play bigger roles.

And unlike Detroit, they're don't wait until players are 23 and 24 to give them a chance to thrive in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Yeah my quick breakdown of the blackhawks cap was 10 million next year with needing to sign a backup goalie and 16 rfa contracts lol. The year later was they will have like 12 million need 3 defenders and 7 rfa kids. Will be more that isnt counting the new draft choices etc..

So they will keep the pirri's saad toews kanes but are gonna be forced to give up on some young talent that can be stolen at the very least.

They also have no flexibility at all and cant sign free agents

My numbers are based on cap hitting 70 million next year which I DONT BELIEVE and 72 million the year after lol.

As long as the team is committed to keeping elite talent and not overspending on dime-a-dozen guys, they'll be fine.

They've got some good, young, inexpensive players ready to play bigger roles.

And unlike Detroit, they're don't wait until players are 23 and 24 to give them a chance to thrive in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

You cannot sign 3 defenders for under 10 million bucks honestly that can help your team. They are in serious trouble in my estimation. So they let their three guys walk but that will not leave them the same team they are today. Top heavy sure scoring yep but like pittsburgh no defense.

Also if they do this and do sign the 3 guys for 10 million they lose about 5-6 prospects next year and again the same amounts the year after who are good prospects not the elite guys will keep teravalien hope spelled that right saad pirri and morin but they are gonna lose some young studs a ton of them for sure.

Or have to lose sharpe or someone or even two guys.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Crawford makes more than Howard or Quick. Keep in mind Ray Emery put up more favorable numbers than him behind that team.

That is a terrible deal, if you're unhappy about the Howard deal you should be gagging at the Crawford deal.

Since you don't credit Osgood with much, don't start with the Cup argument here either.

Whatever enjoy that glove hand at six million a year Chicago, that was a brutal deal.

Crawford is more accomplished than Howard.
Guess how much Howard would be making had he gotten out of round 2, round 3 and then won a cup.
Hint: It's more than the $5,3M cap he has now.