Babcock Contract Negotiations

[Marotte Marauder]

He said better.

Besides, a Hawks fan should know it would be ridiculous for a GM to get rid of a perfectly capable coach in Q (who has won 2 cups with Chicago by the way) just for a coach who may not even be better.

Perhaps the current coach wouldn't might stepping from behind the bench. Early exit or Cup win, wouldn't matter. Remember Q has had health issues and what Scotty wants, Scotty gets.

 

[Run the Jewels]

That's hogwash. Please provide a source... if you can?

The Dreger article that was posted in this very forum.

 

[Henkka]

Perhaps the current coach wouldn't might stepping from behind the bench. Early exit or Cup win, wouldn't matter. Remember Q has had health issues and what Scotty wants, Scotty gets.

Your team is gonna be in cap hell after Kane, Toews, Crawford, hossa contracts and Seabrook extension coming. Sorry to say, but Babcock is not interested about it. he already pushed trough a same kind of 5-year period after 2008-09 season which Chicago is gonna have after current season.

 

[8snake]

Your team is gonna be in cap hell after Kane, Toews, Crawford, hossa contracts and Seabrook extension coming. Sorry to say, but Babcock is not interested about it. he already pushed trough a same kind of 5-year period after 2008-09 season which Chicago is gonna have after current season.

The two situations are not even remotely comparable. Pav was going on 31, Hank was approaching 30 and Lidstrom was 38. Stuart and Rafalski were in their 30's as well. By comparison, Toews and Kane are in their mid 20's, Keith is 31 and Seabrook doesn't turn 30 until later this year. Their core is much younger. I don't think Babcock is coaching Chicago next season but it won't be for that reason.

 

[Henkka]

The two situations are not even remotely comparable. Pav was going on 31, Hank was approaching 30 and Lidstrom was 38. Stuart and Rafalski were in their 30's as well. By comparison, Toews and Kane are in their mid 20's, Keith is 31 and Seabrook doesn't turn 30 until later this year. Their core is much younger. I don't think Babcock is coaching Chicago next season but it won't be for thahttp://www.5dimes.com/SbGameSelection.aspt reason.

Caphell is comparable and it kills the team depth. Financial drop because of the Canadian dollar is happening at same time and cap not rising much, when big contract extensions will hit. It a huge double effect.

Just like with us, Zetterberg/Franzen extensions did hit and World economy stopped. Cap did rise only by 100k.

Their stars will of course will be great, and proably will have career-best seasons near future, but without capspace, there won't be that much support from other lines and that makes the team weaker overall. Kind of what Pittsburgh has been last 4-5 seasons.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Perhaps the current coach wouldn't might stepping from behind the bench. Early exit or Cup win, wouldn't matter. Remember Q has had health issues and what Scotty wants, Scotty gets.

Yeah, that ain't happening.

 

[InjuredChoker]

The Dreger article that was posted in this very forum.

that dreger report that came up after you made your claims?

not throwing high picks and good prospects for rental doesn't mean they're satisfied just making the playoffs. hawks have usually stand pat or made some minor moves. like 4th or something for handzus the last time they won it.

dreger is good insider but not analyzer. he's said some weird crap over the years. including yesterday.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Well, it's 2 and a half months since the announcement that it was imminent that Babcock was re-upping in Motown.

Something slowed that down big time.

Hawks move Sharp and Bickell and caphell becomes a lot more pleasant.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Well, it's 2 and a half months since the announcement that it was imminent that Babcock was re-upping in Motown.

Something slowed that down big time.

Hawks move Sharp and Bickell and caphell becomes a lot more pleasant.

Nothing slowed anything down. It was a bunk rumor. Babcock has stated numerous times he isn't negotiating until after the season.

You are just hoping Babcock signs up for your team. You have nothing to base it on.

 

[icKx]

Didn't the source who announced Babcock's imminent signing later recant?

 

[Run the Jewels]

that dreger report that came up after you made your claims?

not throwing high picks and good prospects for rental doesn't mean they're satisfied just making the playoffs. hawks have usually stand pat or made some minor moves. like 4th or something for handzus the last time they won it.

dreger is good insider but not analyzer. he's said some weird crap over the years. including yesterday.

It further cements a trend we've heard and seen over the years.

1. The Kings win the Cup as an 8 seed. That was the first time I head him say "just make the playoffs and anything can happen".
   
2. Last year he makes a desperation trade for Legwand solely to keep the playoff streak alive.
   
3. This year he's fat and happy since we are a lock to make the playoffs. He offers the ultimate CYA Ken Holland statement about he'll be surveying the landscape so that if a good deal is there to be made he will be active. We all know nothing will happen other than acquiring the equivalent of Cory Cross to appease Babcock.

It's clear Holland's only real motivation at this point in his career is to simply make the playoffs. That bar is going to be much more difficult to clear with Babcock and Lidstrom gone and Datsyuk and Zetterberg nearing the end of their careers.

 

[InjuredChoker]

It further cements a trend we've heard and seen over the years.

1. The Kings win the Cup as an 8 seed. That was the first time I head him say "just make the playoffs and anything can happen".
   
2. Last year he makes a desperation trade for Legwand solely to keep the playoff streak alive.
   
3. This year he's fat and happy since we are a lock to make the playoffs. He offers the ultimate CYA Ken Holland statement about he'll be surveying the landscape so that if a good deal is there to be made he will be active. We all know nothing will happen other than acquiring the equivalent of Cory Cross to appease Babcock.

It's clear Holland's only real motivation at this point in his career is to simply make the playoffs. That bar is going to be much more difficult to clear with Babcock and Lidstrom gone and Datsyuk and Zetterberg nearing the end of their careers.

i didn't hear/read him saying 'anything can happen' until kings win it and/or, red wings stopped being upper echelon team.

i don't know if last year was just to maintain the streak, young guys got some good experience.

the last one depends on how the deadline goes. if sekera goes for 1st + good prospect and petry for same or similar etc. i'm ok with passing that price. but not if it's just 2nd rounder or 2nd + meh prospector something like that. no need to trade järnkrok level prospect but i think they should try to aggressively improve the team, like last year. we'll see. i don't think he makes a big move and have thought so for a while.

 

[FlashyG]

It further cements a trend we've heard and seen over the years.

1. The Kings win the Cup as an 8 seed. That was the first time I head him say "just make the playoffs and anything can happen".
   
2. Last year he makes a desperation trade for Legwand solely to keep the playoff streak alive.
   
3. This year he's fat and happy since we are a lock to make the playoffs. He offers the ultimate CYA Ken Holland statement about he'll be surveying the landscape so that if a good deal is there to be made he will be active. We all know nothing will happen other than acquiring the equivalent of Cory Cross to appease Babcock.

It's clear Holland's only real motivation at this point in his career is to simply make the playoffs. That bar is going to be much more difficult to clear with Babcock and Lidstrom gone and Datsyuk and Zetterberg nearing the end of their careers.

So you criticize him for making a move to try and improve the team for a playoff run last year, then criticize him for not making a move this season?

Seems like you have a bit of an agenda here.

The trade last season was a mistake, I don't think it was made simply to make the playoffs as you seem to be trying to push. I believe Babcock, Holland and the rest of management genuinely thought Legwand would be a player that would be part of the team going forward. It didn't take long for their opinions to change though as he was buried on the 4th line as soon as our other centers got healthy.

What purpose would making a deal right now do? There isn't a player available that will elevate the team to being a clear cut cup contender and even the guys available that will improve the team will come at a steep cost.

The Leafs are an example of a team that can't seem to stick to a rebuilding plan, as soon as they get a sniff of the playoffs they go all

and start making moves to try and accelerate the plan.

For years Holland has said over and over again that the team is rebuilding and that the future of the team will come from Grand Rapids not via trade or free agency. Then when the deadline and July 1st comes around fans get all uppity when he does exactly what he said he was going to do....Nothing.

We have the best GM in the history of the sport...chill and let him do his job

 

[TimoneX]

So you criticize him for making a move to try and improve the team for a playoff run last year, then criticize him for not making a move this season?

Seems like you have a bit of an agenda here.

The trade last season was a mistake, I don't think it was made simply to make the playoffs as you seem to be trying to push. I believe Babcock, Holland and the rest of management genuinely thought Legwand would be a player that would be part of the team going forward. It didn't take long for their opinions to change though as he was buried on the 4th line as soon as our other centers got healthy.

What purpose would making a deal right now do? There isn't a player available that will elevate the team to being a clear cut cup contender and even the guys available that will improve the team will come at a steep cost.

The Leafs are an example of a team that can't seem to stick to a rebuilding plan, as soon as they get a sniff of the playoffs they go all

and start making moves to try and accelerate the plan.

For years Holland has said over and over again that the team is rebuilding and that the future of the team will come from Grand Rapids not via trade or free agency. Then when the deadline and July 1st comes around fans get all uppity when he does exactly what he said he was going to do....Nothing.

We have the best GM in the history of the sport...chill and let him do his job

Werd.

The coach behind the bench doesn't suck either. With the Pens & Bruins seemingly melting down I like Detroit's chances that much more.

 

[odin1981]

So you criticize him for making a move to try and improve the team for a playoff run last year, then criticize him for not making a move this season?

Seems like you have a bit of an agenda here.

The trade last season was a mistake, I don't think it was made simply to make the playoffs as you seem to be trying to push. I believe Babcock, Holland and the rest of management genuinely thought Legwand would be a player that would be part of the team going forward. It didn't take long for their opinions to change though as he was buried on the 4th line as soon as our other centers got healthy.

What purpose would making a deal right now do? There isn't a player available that will elevate the team to being a clear cut cup contender and even the guys available that will improve the team will come at a steep cost.

The Leafs are an example of a team that can't seem to stick to a rebuilding plan, as soon as they get a sniff of the playoffs they go all

and start making moves to try and accelerate the plan.

For years Holland has said over and over again that the team is rebuilding and that the future of the team will come from Grand Rapids not via trade or free agency. Then when the deadline and July 1st comes around fans get all uppity when he does exactly what he said he was going to do....Nothing.

We have the best GM in the history of the sport...chill and let him do his job

You get 19 million points of posterity for including "squirrel" into your post flashy. If I had a drink in hand taking a sip it would have been all over my computer .

 

[Henkka]

Well, it's 2 and a half months since the announcement that it was imminent that Babcock was re-upping in Motown.

Something slowed that down big time.

Hawks move Sharp and Bickell and caphell becomes a lot more pleasant.

Caphell becomes a lot more pleasant = depth goes away.

 

[Run the Jewels]

So you criticize him for making a move to try and improve the team for a playoff run last year, then criticize him for not making a move this season?

He didn't get fleeced for Legwand to "make a run during the playoffs". That's incredibly disingenuous. With all the injuries last season he was in desperation mode and was forced to make that trade in order to keep the playoff streak alive.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Caphell becomes a lot more pleasant = depth goes away.

Not even close. There are a few NHL ready players in AHL. Just traded away a Dman to Vancouver for a younger prospect to buy time for room to open up.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Nothing slowed anything down. It was a bunk rumor. Babcock has stated numerous times he isn't negotiating until after the season.

You are just hoping Babcock signs up for your team. You have nothing to base it on.

Nothing to base it on except, Babcock is a free agent, Bowman and Babcock are chums and our owner has deep, deep pockets. Really deep.

Yes, I hope he signs here.

You are basing his resigning in Detroit on what? That the team is willing to let him become a free agent? Teams usually resign people they want well before expiration of current deals.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Nothing to base it on except, Babcock is a free agent, Bowman and Babcock are chums and our owner has deep, deep pockets. Really deep.

Yes, I hope he signs here.

You are basing his resigning in Detroit on what? That the team is willing to let him become a free agent? Teams usually resign people they want well before expiration of current deals.

Rocky Wirtz is worth less than half of Mike Ilitch's net worth. Not to mention there is basically no owner that has showed the commitment to monetary spending even if it is to take a loss in Pro Sports over the last two decades. His pockets are deep but outside of Toronto Detroit is still home to the deepest checkbook in the league. They pay their AHL coach NHL wages just to keep him from interviewing. Rumors have it Hakan Andersson is the highest paid scout by a significant amount and that is good because he earned it.

Toronto is the only team that could feasibly offer something so ridiculous Ilitch wouldn't match it. Also if you fire Q to pull off this move you would be paying the former highest paid coach in the league his salary still and then be tripling it just to land Babcock. You can say they are deep but I doubt the Blackhawks ownership to have the third highest part of their budget after Kane and Toews to be the money spent on two coaches for several years.

The other stuff comes off as wild speculation by somebody that wants something badly to happen without putting much thought into it.

First of all is the fact Q is not being fired, they don't have front office jobs open so he would have to want to transition out of hockey all together.

Secondly Mike Babcock has maintained he thinks he works for the best owners in sports and he is immensely happy in Detroit. He likes his boss in Holland and he loves his owners. He said he wasn't re-signing in season, so lack of something coming in season is not surprising.

It is believed he wanted a couple of things though. He sees it reportedly as a duty to get NHL coaches on par or closer to the pay enjoyed in the other major sports. He has a chance to significantly alter the market and likely does see that as an obligation to his coaching brethren.

The other is namely power. More executive control in terms of personnel. Here is the rocky part with the Wings along with they probably are dubious to pay him more than Holland. But in any event this doesn't in Chicago either. You think Stan, Scotty, and McDonough have a lot of interest in forking over their power either? The answer is no, he will not gain more in that setup than he would in Detroit in terms of final say.

The last part is believed he wanted to see the direction of this team. You know the one that swept the Blackhawks this season and has hovered near the top of the standings with guys that won an AHL championship. Under Ilitch ownership they have never been cheap they have been the model of consistency. They have operated as a first class organization to their people for 30+ years.

Babcock might go a lot of places. Though it has been leaking more and more likely that he has seen enough that if the right monetary demands are met he stays. But the Babcock to Chicago thing is fairly ridiculous. You say they will fix their cap problems like that is an easy thing, really it is likely more complicated than that. It also would be him basically campaigning for a job of a guy he deeply respects and calls a friend within the profession.

One spot thrown out for Babcock that also makes no sense in this regard would be St. Louis earlier in the year. He would never betray Hitchcock like that, I seriously doubt he would betray either Julian or Q either.

But go ahead and pine for it, just when you ask for facts, there are plenty that show a heavy lean toward re-signing in Detroit or swinging big at taking massive power in another organization (Toronto, Edmonton) if he does leave. It really harms your Chicago theory.

The darkhorse in this conversation for me would be LA opening up by a Sutter retirement. That one isn't talked about a lot, but again he wouldn't be gaining virtually any management power. We have at least heard hints that Sutter would in fact contemplate retirement to get back to his ranch. Q's health stuff aside, he has shown no inclination and there are very few if any rumors that he wants to walk away from Hockey entirely.

I think this thing is a minor distraction at this point and I really dislike it as somebody that does believe he will eventually reup in Detroit. It really was not necessary and likely harmed them in free agency last year and continues to be a talking point in each town they show up in and especially in Canada. He has earned the right to do what he wants, but if he dilly-dallies around once the summer starts, I move on and go with Blashill. Ilitch, Devellano and Holland have developed the winning culture that is Detroit and not Babcock. Great coach, but this can only go on so long until you have to turn the page as the Detroit Red Wings.

 

[SoupGuru]

Does anyone think this contract negotiation goes higher than Holland? They're not going to pay Babcock more than Holland. What if Babcock's price is higher than Holland's current salary?

Would the Ilitches be open to the idea of renegotiating Holland's contract to keep Babcock on board?

I don't think it's likely since Holland just signed his contract this summer and I'm sure Babcock's future was being talked about then too.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Does anyone think this contract negotiation goes higher than Holland? They're not going to pay Babcock more than Holland. What if Babcock's price is higher than Holland's current salary?

Would the Ilitches be open to the idea of renegotiating Holland's contract to keep Babcock on board?

I don't think it's likely since Holland just signed his contract this summer and I'm sure Babcock's future was being talked about then too.

We will see, I actually think what you discussed might take place if he does increase the pay a bunch. The Ilitch's rip up Holland's contract and extend him again with a higher salary.

Toronto is a real factor here in maybe pushing that number up. Then again if you are the Iltich's you might say this is what we are willing to pay, we think it is fair and have treated you fairly for a decade. If you want to haggle or just go on price, enjoy the trainwreck that is Toronto.

I don't see it happening that way, but it could get Holland a raise if his number to stay is reached at higher than his. But neither Holland or Babcock strike me as the guys that would get super ugly over this either. Ken Holland has made a lot of money, he might not care if Babcock makes more to come back to the fold.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Nothing to base it on except, Babcock is a free agent, Bowman and Babcock are chums and our owner has deep, deep pockets. Really deep.

Yes, I hope he signs here.

You are basing his resigning in Detroit on what? That the team is willing to let him become a free agent? Teams usually resign people they want well before expiration of current deals.

I've long speculated that Babcock would go to Tampa. Tampa is where the Wings were before they acquired Scotty Bowman: great regular season team that could never put it all together come playoff time.

Add to that the fact Steve Yzerman has run team Canada and he's picked Babcock as his coach the past two Olympics. He is also very familiar with Babcock during his final years as a player and as a member of the Red Wings' front office before he moved on to Tampa.

Babcock does have a ton of respect for Bowman but he also has a ton of respect for Bill Belichick. Another consideration is that Scotty Bowman isn't heavily involved in hockey decisions at this point in his life so I think you are probably overstating the pull Bowman would have on Babcock. Along those lines, what will Bowman's role be in 5 years? It's safe to assume it will continue to diminish even further from where it is right now.

I am not saying it's impossible and would never happen; all I'm saying is that Yzerman has a much deeper working relationship with Babcock over the past 8-10 years. Yzerman is the final decision-maker in Tampa and will be for easily the next 5-10 years. That's a pretty easy transition for Babcock, who is incredibly smart and competitive.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I've long speculated that Babcock would go to Tampa. Tampa is where the Wings were before they acquired Scotty Bowman: great regular season team that could never put it all together come playoff time.

Add to that the fact Steve Yzerman has run team Canada and he's picked Babcock as his coach the past two Olympics. He is also very familiar with Babcock during his final years as a player and as a member of the Red Wings' front office before he moved on to Tampa.

Babcock does have a ton of respect for Bowman but he also has a ton of respect for Bill Belichick. Another consideration is that Scotty Bowman isn't heavily involved in hockey decisions at this point in his life so I think you are probably overstating the pull Bowman would have on Babcock. Along those lines, what will Bowman's role be in 5 years? It's safe to assume it will continue to diminish even further from where it is right now.

I am not saying it's impossible and would never happen; all I'm saying is that Yzerman has a much deeper working relationship with Babcock over the past 8-10 years. Yzerman is the final decision-maker in Tampa and will be for easily the next 5-10 years. That's a pretty easy transition for Babcock, who is incredibly smart and competitive.

If Babcock doesn't stay in Detroit, I could see Tampa as a landing spot.

I mean, they've got everything you'd want in terms of player resources and Yzerman is proving himself to be a capable GM.

I still think it's way more likely that Babcock stays in Detroit though.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Rocky Wirtz is worth less than half of Mike Ilitch's net worth. Not to mention there is basically no owner that has showed the commitment to monetary spending even if it is to take a loss in Pro Sports over the last two decades. His pockets are deep but outside of Toronto Detroit is still home to the deepest checkbook in the league. .

You gotta put down the Corona and come in from the sun if you think Illitch and his Little Caesar empire has deeper pockets than the Wirtz Corp.