Confirmed with Link: Avs trade Downie for Max Talbot part II

[Nihiliste]

This trade is the new EJ trade.

EJ and Varly trades were risky but at least we got quality players back. This one, meh.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

There were a couple sources stating that the Avs weren't planning on re-signing him.

Hey BOC...do you happen to have a link to any of those articles/stories. I'm seriously not calling you out, I just remember what I read differently. I could've sworn I read statements to the effect that he wasn't going to be resigned but those never attributed whose side made that call (was it the team that wasn't interested in resigning or was Downie looking to move on?) Since the trade is over and done with, I'm not really going to spend time sifting through google trying to find the answer but I'd hate to see it misconstrued that Patty had no love for Downie's play and didn't want him around if it was really Downie who wanted to test UFA and see what was out there for him. I remember reading that Downie thought he could be traded, that Patty had concerns about his control but that he also said he was a solid team-mate and did nothing to get himself moved. It came down to Roy wanting a PK player for the 3rd/4th lines and the asking price was Downie.

 

[BoxOfChocolates]

Hey BOC...do you happen to have a link to any of those articles/stories. I'm seriously not calling you out, I just remember what I read differently. I could've sworn I read statements to the effect that he wasn't going to be resigned but those never attributed whose side made that call (was it the team that wasn't interested in resigning or was Downie looking to move on?) Since the trade is over and done with, I'm not really going to spend time sifting through google trying to find the answer but I'd hate to see it misconstrued that Patty had no love for Downie's play and didn't want him around if it was really Downie who wanted to test UFA and see what was out there for him. I remember reading that Downie thought he could be traded, that Patty had concerns about his control but that he also said he was a solid team-mate and did nothing to get himself moved. It came down to Roy wanting a PK player for the 3rd/4th lines and the asking price was Downie.

Here's one that I could find real quick:

Louis Jean ‏@LouisJean_TVA 31 Oct
Told #Avs & #Flyers had been talking for some time about Downie/Talbot swap. Colorado had no intention of re-upping Downie at seasons end.


Edit: http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/54097-Why-did-the-Avalanche-add-Talbot-for-Downie.html

The indications I’m getting are that the Avs and Downie’s agent, Rick Curran, hadn’t even discussed a contract extension

This one doesn't mean much though.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I read through Dater's blog chat from the Dallas game where Dater said he spoke to Sakic at the game and Sakic he said he felt like Downie was going to explore other options. Of course this is 4th hand info and I'm paraphrasing and it came from a stupid chat but the sentiment was much more there might not be interest (or might be competition) on Downie's side than flat out just not envisioning him in the Avs long term plans and moving on from him. I thought it was important enough to note which is why I posted about it here.

 

[Foppa2118]

Talbot hasn't been abysmal since he has been here, but he hasn't done a single thing to quiet his doubters either. People are always going to be upset about this trade because the Avs traded a tweener 2nd/3rd line player that doesn't look lost at all on a top 6 line for long stretches of time and adds a lot of grit for a 3rd/4th line PK specialist. The numbers will never be in favor of Talbot in any manner except SH TOI. Talbot's true worth comes out near and in the playoffs. If the Avs make the playoffs, we will be happy to have him... until that time people will complain about losing Downie.

IMO what has hurt the most is that Downie would have helped the team a ton with the Tanguay injury when it comes to scoring depth. Talbot isn't being relied upon to do that, and really he shouldn't be either. He just doesn't have that level of skill.

I think another loss is the emotion Downie plays with. Not only can he change the momentum with a big hit, he puts so much attention on himself, the rest of the skill players can just go out and do their thing, with less focus on them.

I also noticed him doing a very good job on the forecheck when he was the man in deep in his last five games or so. You'd see a switch go on when he saw a particular situation. He'd skate extremely quickly at the D clearly trying to fake him out that he was gonna lay one of his superman hits on him, and the D man would rush the pass making a bad one, and Downie would just skate by him without touching him to hunt down the puck. This lead to a couple turnovers and became a very nice play he was making routinely. This seemed to show me he had become very disciplined. That's why I'm surprised they gave up on him.

No one else on the team really plays with that level of emotion though apart from McLeod, though he seems to do it less often, probably because his minutes have been less playing a pure 4th line role.

Again, just to be clear I don't think the trade is the end of the world, but I do think they miss that X factor and emotion that Downie brought more than they thought they would.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Here's one that I could find real quick:

Louis Jean ‏@LouisJean_TVA 31 Oct
Told #Avs & #Flyers had been talking for some time about Downie/Talbot swap. Colorado had no intention of re-upping Downie at seasons end.


Edit: http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/54097-Why-did-the-Avalanche-add-Talbot-for-Downie.html


This one doesn't mean much though.

I read through Dater's blog chat from the Dallas game where Dater said he spoke to Sakic at the game and Sakic he said he felt like Downie was going to explore other options. Of course this is 4th hand info and I'm paraphrasing and it came from a stupid chat but the sentiment was much more there might not be interest (or might be competition) on Downie's side than flat out just not envisioning him in the Avs long term plans and moving on from him. I thought it was important enough to note which is why I posted about it here.

Meh...conflicting info and from sources I don't know and/or don't trust in the case Dater. Anyways, the trade is done...it's one thing to discuss if it was a bad move or not but the fact is it's water under the bridge at this point. I'm not going to get my panties in the wad one way or the other. I don't think it necessarily helped the AVs as much as I would've liked but I also don't think Downie would've been a difference in any of these last few games. He seemed to be operating on his own a bit and not as part of a well oiled team (I'm not suggesting the AVs are a well oiled team right now) so I can understand him being used in a move to upgrade the PK. I just hope it proves useful over the next year and a half or so. Any trade to upgrade the D involving Downie would've probably also included a piece of the core (Duchene, Landeskog, ROR, MacKinnon, and/or Stastny.) I don't see Downie and McGinn or Mitchell getting us a top 3 Dman. And since I don't think PAP is tradebait yet, it is what it is.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I think another loss is the emotion Downie plays with. Not only can he change the momentum with a big hit, he puts so much attention on himself, the rest of the skill players can just go out and do their thing, with less focus on them.

I also noticed him doing a very good job on the forecheck when he was the man in deep in his last five games or so. You'd see a switch go on when he saw a particular situation. He'd skate extremely quickly at the D clearly trying to fake him out that he was gonna lay one of his superman hits on him, and the D man would rush the pass making a bad one, and Downie would just skate by him without touching him to hunt down the puck. This lead to a couple turnovers and became a very nice play he was making routinely. This seemed to show me he had become very disciplined. That's why I'm surprised they gave up on him.

No one else on the team really plays with that level of emotion though apart from McLeod, though he seems to do it less often, probably because his minutes have been less playing a pure 4th line role.

Again, just to be clear I don't think the trade is the end of the world, but I do think they miss that X factor and emotion that Downie brought more than they thought they would.

I think a lot of the drop in play has to do with Tangs being injured and the return to normal play of a lot of the players on the team. It dovetails nicely with the trade and maybe chemistry is a piece of that but let's not forget completely that Downie was being bounced off the top line. Fact is the team took a hit by loosing both Downie and Tangs at the same time that the rest of the team started to back down from some of the things that made them successful. Tenacious team-oriented D and puck possession in the offensive zone. Also, the goalies stopped standing on their heads and reverted to making the saves they should instead of bailing out every mistake made by the team.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Oh yeah, it's Dater and a very offhand comment at best. But I think with any UFA it's a big risk they will walk. I don't think Downie will stay in Philly either, but we'll see. I think the trade will work out better in the long run but I can see how it hurt the team in the short term even if I understand the reasons why they did it.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think a lot of the drop in play has to do with Tangs being injured and the return to normal play of a lot of the players on the team. It dovetails nicely with the trade and maybe chemistry is a piece of that but let's not forget completely that Downie was being bounced off the top line. Fact is the team took a hit by loosing both Downie and Tangs at the same time that the rest of the team started to back down from some of the things that made them successful. Tenacious team-oriented D and puck possession in the offensive zone. Also, the goalies stopped standing on their heads and reverted to making the saves they should instead of bailing out every mistake made by the team.

Definitely. Lots of reasons for the losses. Tangs was one, goalies being a bit more human, some bad breaks, some poor focus and decisions from the forwards, the D being exposed for their weaknesses.

That's why they can over come losing Downie in the long run and it's not the end of the world, but I do think they are missing that emotion he played with in a top 9 role, especially when he was on a scoring line. It added a lot to the intensity the team plays with, and also took the attention off his linemates.

They're kind of playing more of a straight ahead offensive game now, rather than a dynamic one that they played with Downie doing his thing. They really need Landy to go back to being a bull, and cuasing some havok out there. They need McGinn doing this too, but it seems as though he's had to reign it in a bit with his knee not 100%.

I think the Tanguay and Varly situations kind of masked that loss in emotion, because there were so many other reasons for why the team might play a bit different, but I think part of it was the loss of what Downie brings to the table.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Definitely. Lots of reasons for the losses. Tangs was one, goalies being a bit more human, some bad breaks, some poor focus and decisions from the forwards, the D being exposed for their weaknesses.

That's why they can over come losing Downie in the long run and it's not the end of the world, but I do think they are missing that emotion he played with in a top 9 role, especially when he was on a scoring line. It added a lot to the intensity the team plays with, and also took the attention off his linemates.

They're kind of playing more of a straight ahead offensive game now, rather than a dynamic one that they played with Downie doing his thing. They really need Landy to go back to being a bull, and cuasing some havok out there. They need McGinn doing this too, but it seems as though he's had to reign it in a bit with his knee not 100%.

I think the Tanguay and Varly situations kind of masked that loss in emotion, because there were so many other reasons for why the team might play a bit different, but I think part of it was the loss of what Downie brings to the table.

I understand what you are saying and while this is not a long-term solution, I would have no problems putting the Highlander on one of the top lines for much the same reason. He plays a havoc game when he's at his best and is decent about getting garbage in front of the net. If we can't get Hishon/Sgarbossa up to play a skill game, why not let him just play mean and nasty in front of the net on the second line? Again...that is not a preferred long-term solution but it is something worth looking at for a game or two.

 

[Foppa2118]

I understand what you are saying and while this is not a long-term solution, I would have no problems putting the Highlander on one of the top lines for much the same reason. He plays a havoc game when he's at his best and is decent about getting garbage in front of the net. If we can't get Hishon/Sgarbossa up to play a skill game, why not let him just play mean and nasty in front of the net on the second line? Again...that is not a preferred long-term solution but it is something worth looking at for a game or two.

Eh, I'm a big fan of McLeod's game, and don't have a problem with him on the 3rd line for portions of the season, but if he's seeing time on a scoring line there's a problem. He just doesn't have the puck skills to play that role, he'll bring down the play of his linemates who need to have an option to be able to pass to in transition or play a give and go game. He's a dump and chase player, and that's not how the top lines play. The top lines feed off their quick transition game.

 

[Avs_19]

Since we're back to discussing the trade......

I hate the fact that they didn't shop him around and try to get the best deal, they targeted Talbot and went and got him. Roy's buddy in Quebec who used to coach Talbot had great things to say about him and Roy spent weeks trying to acquire him. Holmgren kept asking for Downie in return so Roy eventually said okay.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Eh, I'm a big fan of McLeod's game, and don't have a problem with him on the 3rd line for portions of the season, but if he's seeing time on a scoring line there's a problem. He just doesn't have the puck skills to play that role, he'll bring down the play of his linemates who need to have an option to be able to pass to in transition or play a give and go game. He's a dump and chase player, and that's not how the top lines play. The top lines feed off their quick transition game.

When the top lines are missing Duchene and Tanguay they have to adapt to circumstance. Load up one with speed and the other with solid defensive play and pugnacity.

 

[Bender]

I see the trade as Roy putting the pieces in place to contend within the next 2 years. I think he sees Talbot as a Shjon Podein/Mike Keane kind of piece and he knows damn well you don't win without those guys. (I don't think we win in '96 without Keaner and in 2001 without Podes)

I understand there's the perception we could have done better but which team is giving up a great asset for Downie? Sure, there are many that would have offered futures and picks but that doesn't help us within the next 2 years.

Who knows, maybe Roy knows something we don't and has a 'right side' scoring spot open now for an old Russian buddy of his who'll be eligible to come back to the NHL as a UFA. I wouldn't be shocked if that happened.

 

[m0ngr31]

I see the trade as Roy putting the pieces in place to contend within the next 2 years. I think he sees Talbot as a Shjon Podein/Mike Keane kind of piece and he knows damn well you don't win without those guys. (I don't think we win in '96 without Keaner and in 2001 without Podes)

I understand there's the perception we could have done better but which team is giving up a great asset for Downie? Sure, there are many that would have offered futures and picks but that doesn't help us within the next 2 years.

Who knows, maybe Roy knows something we don't and has a 'right side' scoring spot open now for an old Russian buddy of his who'll be eligible to come back to the NHL as a UFA. I wouldn't be shocked if that happened.

I understand what your saying about the Talbot being a key piece, and I agree. He's got the cup experience, and I can see what he brings to the table. I just wish we could have gotten a draft pick in addition to Talbot to even it out a little. I feel like we got bent over a little in this one.

Hope your right about Radulov. Would love to get him in the lineup.

 

[zxcvnm]

I see the trade as Roy putting the pieces in place to contend within the next 2 years. I think he sees Talbot as a Shjon Podein/Mike Keane kind of piece and he knows damn well you don't win without those guys. (I don't think we win in '96 without Keaner and in 2001 without Podes)

Do we win the '96 cup without Claude Lemieux? Is that a fair comparison for Downie?

 

[Foppa2118]

I see the trade as Roy putting the pieces in place to contend within the next 2 years. I think he sees Talbot as a Shjon Podein/Mike Keane kind of piece and he knows damn well you don't win without those guys. (I don't think we win in '96 without Keaner and in 2001 without Podes)

I understand there's the perception we could have done better but which team is giving up a great asset for Downie? Sure, there are many that would have offered futures and picks but that doesn't help us within the next 2 years.

Who knows, maybe Roy knows something we don't and has a 'right side' scoring spot open now for an old Russian buddy of his who'll be eligible to come back to the NHL as a UFA. I wouldn't be shocked if that happened.

I think you're right. That was the likely the mindset.

The question is can Talbot get to that level, and have the kind of impact Keane v1 and Podes had on their cup teams. Hopefully he can, and maybe the playoffs will bring that out in him, but he's not off to a great start. Keane and Podein weren't necessarily high scoring players but they were very effective on the forecheck, and at chipping in offensively. Talbot has struggled doing much of anything past his own blue line, and has not been particularly good on the forecheck.

Hopefully he can get better as he learns the west, and learns Roy's system better.

 

[Metallo]

Do we win the '96 cup without Claude Lemieux? Is that a fair comparison for Downie?

No its not. Downie is a peewee compared to Pepe.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Wait a second, so Downie is the one that has been mis-characterized here and not "barely a fourth liner" Talbot?

Most fans love to think they are more informed and smarter than the people involved, so we get the complaining about how we could have gotten more after every trade. That's fine. But get it out of your system please. Complaining about it in every GDT for eight games is getting very annoying. Getting worked up over a relatively minor trade is silly. It's not going to significantly alter the direction of Avs season in any way.

He played most of the season in our top-6, I wouldn't call that minor trade. It was big trade(in my books) with disappointing return. Talbot has been disappointment so far. Even If he's only penalty killer, he has to put up some points as well. That's what made us strong early in the season, three scoring lines. Now we have 2 lines and now Duchene out.. Yeah, It's gonna be tougggh.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Since we're back to discussing the trade......

I hate the fact that they didn't shop him around and try to get the best deal, they targeted Talbot and went and got him. Roy's buddy in Quebec who used to coach Talbot had great things to say about him and Roy spent weeks trying to acquire him. Holmgren kept asking for Downie in return so Roy eventually said okay.

I think this is just bad asset management. Downie will get better return for Philly at trade deadline than he got us now. It sounds brutal, but I really think that's going to happen, If Philly can't re-sign Downie and they trade him.

 

[AslanRH]

Well, maybe if this is viewed as being as lopsided in the Philly/Avs front offices as it is here, there will be that "you owe us one" sentiment next time.

Honestly shopping Downie may have been prudent, but there may not have been the type of player available elsewhere that Roy wanted.

Waiting out til the deadline to trade Downie is a big gamble in its own right. The odds of him being healthy or being injured (and worth nothing) was probably 50-50 in the eyes of the Avs.

 

[Flanagan]

Well, maybe if this is viewed as being as lopsided in the Philly/Avs front offices as it is here, there will be that "you owe us one" sentiment next time.

Wait what do you mean by this? That Philly will willingly give us a lopsided deal because they "owe us one" for winning this trade?

 

[Avs71]

If anyone owes anyone, the Avs franchise owes the Flyers.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Well, maybe if this is viewed as being as lopsided in the Philly/Avs front offices as it is here, there will be that "you owe us one" sentiment next time.

Honestly shopping Downie may have been prudent, but there may not have been the type of player available elsewhere that Roy wanted.

Waiting out til the deadline to trade Downie is a big gamble in its own right. The odds of him being healthy or being injured (and worth nothing) was probably 50-50 in the eyes of the Avs.

That's true though. Good point.

 

[raistlin76]

I think it's much to early to say who won and who lost that trade. As I read all comments if I don't check scoreboards I can have an impression that Downie just put 20 points in last 5 games and is currently best player in NHL. Last time I checked, his hooking penalty cost his team a point as Byfuglien ties game on PP and Flyers lost in shootout. I don't think his two assists he currently has as a Flyer would save us some points we lost in last three games.