Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[CobraAcesS]

I love the sentiment here that this team is not playing well, and has had problems with defense for years, but 7 years into a rebuild and some are still unwilling to give up a mid round pick that most likely won't turn into much better than a depth player, or won't sign players that can actually help solidify the backend unless they're dirt cheap.

Hopefully Joe and Patrick live in this same perfect world where they just magically get better, and everything falls in their laps. I'm stuck in this place where you actually have to make some sacrifices to get what you want usually.

You know, it's interesting... So far I've seen a lot of discussion regarding the 'act' of trading the asset(s) for Polak, and regarding the pros and cons. Haven't really seen anyone talk about what level Polak is at right now in terms of playing realistically.

In my question I was never questioning the move itself (trying to find a bottom four right hander to play with Bigras). I was questioning if Polak is actually worth the pick needed to get him as a rental.

Personally I'm willing to trade a 3rd and guys like Hishon if some team wants to take a chance. However I wouldn't do that for Stuart, so is Polak better than Stuart or not? I don't mean just by the fact that he can actually play either, for you smart *****.

Can anyone here actually break down Polak's game accurately, and give us an idea of value versus cost? Saying hes only 29 isn't exactly what I mean either.

 

[Skip2myBordyloo]

Based on the last 3 games we shouldn't even consider shipping out draft picks for a depth player.

We're not one piece away from getting vaulted into the playoffs.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I love the sentiment here that this team is not playing well, and has had problems with defense for years, but 7 years into a rebuild and some are still unwilling to give up a mid round pick that most likely won't turn into much better than a depth player, or won't sign players that can actually help solidify the backend unless they're dirt cheap.

Hopefully Joe and Patrick live in this same perfect world where they just magically get better, and everything falls in their laps. Not stuck in that place where you actually have to make some sacrifices to get what you want like the rest of us.

Or you know build a team like everyone else does. Not spend another decade in mediocrity chasing our tails but actually get somewhere. Then have assets to give when they might actually accomplish something. We are just trying to win a damn game here, we have to get real where this team is.

 

[Foppa2118]

In what universe does Roman Polak or a similar marginal defender turn Avs into a playoff team?

Just stay away from rentals. Lets the bad players on bad contracts play out their contracts and gain breathing room that way. Don't throw away picks on a window that's bolted down so hard it's just a complete waste. Be honest with where you are as a team. If they would have been, Iginla wouldn't be here.

He makes the 3rd pair better. That makes the team better, especially when Roy can't rely on the 3rd pair so he has to keep playing the other two pairs that are struggling, too many minutes.

Whether that helps them make the playoffs, there's no way to know, or to quantify that. But he is a much better option to play with Bigras on the 3rd pair than Redmond, Bodnarchuk, or Guenin. That's all that matters.

This is like two years ago when I kept saying they need some forward depth, they need to acuire some bottom six vets, and everyone was deathly afraid of giving up any sort of draft pick because of the low percentage chance they develop into a quality NHLer. Then they had a couple injuries up front, and lost int he first round, in big part due to a lack of depth.

 

[S E P H]

The way I see it.

Lindberg and a 2nd for what Phaneuf brings is decent hockeytrade for both sides. Phaneufs ugly contract is what brings Michalek, Cowen and Greening into this deal. The way the cap world works.

I'll never get behind the notion that Karlsson is a defensive liability though.

IMO. He's bad, he's never been good defensively, not a liability, but I think he might be worst than Barrie in the average game. Lately though, he has been really, really, really bad to the point of liability. He's just going through a week of bad hockey, happens to every player. I would still take him in nanseconds for the Avs though, his offensive ability is more of a pro than any con he possesses.

 

[Thepoolmaster]

What a joke all this "Phaneuf is a great leader" "Phaneuf is an even better person than I thought" crap coming from Toronto media, and from Babcock in interviews. They clearly were just trying to dumping his contract the whole time.

Toronto media must literally be on the Leafs payroll at this point.

Bell and Rogers are the Toronto media.

TSN is owned by bell media
Sportsnet is owned by Rogers

FAN 590 which is sportsnet radio station is of course owned by Rogers.

CTV and other types of news outlets in Toronto are owned by Bell media and Rogers as well.

These two companies basically own almost all main Canadian media that give the news and especially sports news.

So bob Makenzie for example is a bell employee officially while Friedman and kypreos are Rogers employees. Who of course both own the leafs.

 

[henchman21]

You know, it's interesting... So far I've seen a lot of discussion regarding the 'act' of trading the asset(s) for Polak, and regarding the pros and cons. Haven't really seen anyone talk about what level Polak is at right now in terms of playing realistically.

In my question I was never questioning the move itself (trying to find a bottom four right hander to play with Bigras). I was questioning if Polak is actually worth the pick needed to get him as a rental.

Personally I'm willing to trade a 3rd and guys like Hishon if some team wants to take a chance. However I wouldn't do that for Stuart, so is Polak better than Stuart or not? I don't mean just by the fact that he can actually play either, for you smart *****.

Can anyone here actually break down Polak's game accurately, and give us an idea of value versus cost? Saying hes only 29 isn't exactly what I mean either.

Polak gets mentioned because he will be available. Polak is a good enough defender to skate for ~15 minutes a night and be able to play on the PK. He is a physical player that would help mask Bigras in that area.

Gryba is who I think the Avs should target for that role.

Or you know build a team like everyone else does. Not spend another decade in mediocrity chasing our tails but actually get somewhere. Then have assets to give when they might actually accomplish something. We are just trying to win a damn game here, we have to get real where this team is.

All teams use picks as trade bait at all times during a rebuild. It isn't as simple as holding on to all of your picks and then waiting and waiting for the right time.

 

[Foppa2118]

Or you know build a team like everyone else does. Not spend another decade in mediocrity chasing our tails but actually get somewhere. Then have assets to give when they might actually accomplish something. We are just trying to win a damn game here, we have to get real where this team is.

You really think every other team builds teams without giving up mid round picks? That is part of building teams. You can't draft your way to it alone.

Getting Duchene, MacKinnon, Landy, EJ, and Barrie some playoff experience is just as important, if not more to the rebuild, than a mid round pick.

They're on the verge of making the playoffs, and turning the corner of their rebuild. That's the reality of where the team is. This isn't 4-5 years ago with a weak prospect pool, and they need to hold onto to every pick for dear life.

 

[Freudian]

It isn't so much about Polak or whoever the defensemen is... it is Bigras getting more minutes and saving Beauch ~2 so he can be effective at the end of the season. Right now there isn't a combination to do that.

It isn't throwing picks away to be more competitive. There is value to that... from revenue to Bigras' growth.

There isn't any problem with finding more minutes for Bigras with what we have here.

He played 17 minutes against Winnipeg.

 

[InjuredChoker]

This is like two years ago when I kept saying they need some forward depth, they need to acuire some bottom six vets, and everyone was deathly afraid of giving up any sort of draft pick because of the low percentage chance they develop into a quality NHLer. Then they had a couple injuries up front, and lost int he first round, in big part due to a lack of depth.

i'm happy that they didn't acquire bottom 6 vet. and would be even more if they didn't trade for berra.

 

[henchman21]

There isn't any problem with finding more minutes for Bigras with what we have here.

He played 17 minutes against Winnipeg.

Oh yeah there is... He can't get a regular partner because all of the other extra defesemen are terrible. The team is relying on extra shifts from other defensemen to get him time when they can.

One game... before that he played in the 13s, then 14s then 7s, then 16, then 7, then 16.... he isn't getting consistent minutes because he doesn't have competent partners most of the time.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Polak gets mentioned because he will be available. Polak is a good enough defender to skate for ~15 minutes a night and be able to play on the PK. He is a physical player that would help mask Bigras in that area.

Gryba is who I think the Avs should target for that role.

I know this, if they do something like what we're talking about here. I'd prefer someone who's skates are not stuck in the mud.

The media guys seem to think Polak may fetch a second round pick. I wonder if they're basing that off of what we paid for Stuart?

Hell I'd actually prefer if they just called up Zadorov, and mixed up the lines with EJ/Bigras Zads/FB and attempted to manage the minutes better that way instead of spending assets there. There is another avenue to lessening FBs minutes. Roy just needs to be willing to do it.

 

[falconski]

I forget what it was that we were supposed to trade for Dion. We haven't had that discussion for a while. Was it a first and something else?

I remember him being the best we could expect for ROR and we'd probably have to add anyway

 

[Foppa2118]

i'm happy that they didn't acquire bottom 6 vet. and would be even more if they didn't trade for berra.

IMO they should have used the assets they used on Berra for depth forwards. That's part of why I didn't understand the move, because forward depth was clearly the position of need, not a 3rd string goalie. But that's an old topic.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I know that but he's supposed to be. Is it ok paying a 3/4th liner 5.3M?



He was carried off on a stretcher, not exactly like its his fault.

I totally get this team needs playoff experience but it's not shuffling the deck chairs that's going to bring us there. It's MacKinnon remembering how to score goals and handle the puck in the offensive zone that's going to get us there. Roy is right, it's up to the core to decide if they are going to do it or not. Sure it's nice to surround them with help but right now the difference between crossing that line or not is up to them.

Depends on the rest of the roster. In general, that's too much for a bottom 6 player. You guys never make it about the money though. You just ***** and ***** and ***** about how terrible of a player he is and how much a liability he is and how he is just terrible for the team. I'm not even joking when I say some of you guys make him out to be the root of everything that is evil in Avs land. The disrespect is absurd. It's one thing to say "man, sure would be nice to have that cap space and not need to pay a bottom 6er like a top 6er". Totally different to act like every little mistake makes him such a bad player and this humongous liability who shouldn't even be on the ice.

 

[henchman21]

I know this, if they do something like what we're talking about here. I'd prefer someone who's skates are not stuck in the mud.

The media guys seem to think Polak may fetch a second round pick. I wonder if they're basing that off of what we paid for Stuart?

Hell I'd actually prefer if they just called up Zadorov, and mixed up the lines with EJ/Bigras Zads/FB and attempted to manage the minutes better that way instead of spending assets there. There is another avenue to lessening FBs minutes. Roy just needs to be willing to do it.

They shouldn't spend a 2nd on Polak... they shouldn't spend a 2nd on a player they don't intend to keep around for a bit. 4th... that is a different story.

That is far riskier than having somebody that Bigras can play with. Bigras hasn't been a liability yet, but giving him 20 minutes and tough competition could very well lead to him being one. Going with those pairings means there is a potential liability on the ice every single minute. No coach is going to consistently roll out those pairings while in the midst of a playoff hunt.

 

[Freudian]

Oh yeah there is... He can't get a regular partner because all of the other extra defesemen are terrible. The team is relying on extra shifts from other defensemen to get him time when they can.

One game... before that he played in the 13s, then 14s then 7s, then 16, then 7, then 16.... he isn't getting consistent minutes because he doesn't have competent partners most of the time.

He's 20 and only has played 11 games in the league. Him getting 17/14/14/16/7 minutes in the last five games isn't anything to worry about. Bigras isn't going to be damaged developmentally with whats going on right now and won't be saved by Roman Polak.

Hell, we have Grigorenko who has been in this league much longer struggling to earn minutes under Roy, being a healthy scratch a bunch of times.

Roy will ride his top four as hard as he can no matter what because he's got too much trust in Beachemin and Holden.

I know this, if they do something like what we're talking about here. I'd prefer someone who's skates are not stuck in the mud.

The media guys seem to think Polak may fetch a second round pick. I wonder if they're basing that off of what we paid for Stuart?

Hell I'd actually prefer if they just called up Zadorov, and mixed up the lines with EJ/Bigras Zads/FB and attempted to manage the minutes better that way instead of spending assets there. There is another avenue to lessening FBs minutes. Roy just needs to be willing to do it.

Agreed. They played better defensively with both Bigras and Zadorov playing than they have done at any other point during the season, but this team seem obsessed with not losing AHL scrubs so Guenin/Redmond/NewBalls occupy three roster spots currently.

 

[agentblack]

I used to think it was an automatic they'd pay whatever for a Polak type but with the contract limit im starting to waver on that.
But they will try..as high as a 3rd probably and some prospect.
Im really not sure how to feel either way tbh. Getting some experience and stability on the bottom pairing would be nice for a run. But not at the expense of a 2nd, even a 3rd im kind iffy on.
Wish we hadnt squandered so many points to the east.

 

[henchman21]

He's 20 and only has played 11 games in the league. Him getting 17/14/14/16/7 minutes in the last five games isn't anything to worry about. Bigras isn't going to be damaged developmentally with whats going on right now and won't be saved by Roman Polak.

Hell, we have Grigorenko who has been in this league much longer struggling to earn minutes under Roy, being a healthy scratch a bunch of times.

Roy will ride his top four as hard as he can no matter what because he's got too much trust in Beachemin and Holden.

By no means am I saying it is hurting Bigras... I'm saying getting him consistently (meaning damn near every night) into the 16-17-18 range helps the team. It would help Bigras get used to a higher workload too, but that isn't necessary at this point.

Grigo is for different reasons.

He will, but he wants to ease the burden. It is pretty clear to me with what they are trying.

 

[CobraAcesS]

They shouldn't spend a 2nd on Polak... they shouldn't spend a 2nd on a player they don't intend to keep around for a bit. 4th... that is a different story.

That is far riskier than having somebody that Bigras can play with. Bigras hasn't been a liability yet, but giving him 20 minutes and tough competition could very well lead to him being one. Going with those pairings means there is a potential liability on the ice every single minute. No coach is going to consistently roll out those pairings while in the midst of a playoff hunt.

I'm not saying play him 20 minutes a night, honestly just giving Bigras some of FB's PK time would help FB a lot.

Those pairings are more for the beginning and middle of periods, you could play them both 15-17 minutes a night with those guys, the rest EJ & FB together, and use the rookies to cut down on FBs PK time.

It would accomplish the same goal IMO.

Yeah you might end up playing Zads & Bigras together for a few minutes a night, but that's doable IMO. If you really wanted to avoid ever putting them on the ice together, you could use Barrie next to them on some sheltered shifts as well.

I get everyone's sentiment, and don't totally disagree. However I don't like expending assets just to get a healthy version of Stuart for less than thirty games when we have another option. At least ****ing try it for a week or so before going that route.

 

[Foppa2118]

Polak gets mentioned because he will be available. Polak is a good enough defender to skate for ~15 minutes a night and be able to play on the PK. He is a physical player that would help mask Bigras in that area.

Gryba is who I think the Avs should target for that role.

Exactly, the benefits of bringing in a vet physical defensive 3rd pair D is multifold. Even if they're just a decent defensive D man, albeit nothing special, but NHL defenseman. This keeps Redmond, Bod, and Guenin out of the starting lineup. It also allows Bigras to play more minutes, which helps the team, because he's a good defenseman. It allows them to play the top two combos less minutes while they're struggling, which is helpful if they make the playoffs, and especially if EJ's knee isn't 100%. It also potentially opens up another 3rd pairing where they swap Holden with Bigras and play him more minutes on one of the other combos if he deserves it. Something that wouldn't be as easy watching Holden play with a weak defensive partner like Redmond, Bod, or Guenin.

There are also reasons this helps the development of of their young players. It helps Bigras development specifically. It keeps him from having to babysit his partner, worry about making any mistake because it could end up in the back up his net, and he can just go out and play while his partner babysits him. Then he can takes some chances and learn his limits, while his vet partner talks to him on the ice a bunch, and sits next to him on the bench giving him pointers. Guenin might be able to play the talker role, but I doubt Redmond and Bod play that role much for him.

It also helps the rebuild if it can solidify the D just a little bit and they end up making the playoffs. This gets their core players like Duchene, Mack, Landy, EJ, and Barrie some playoff experience, who have very little combined. They can't get to the next level without taking that step first. They're not just gonna draft their way to missing the playoffs every year, to suddenly winning the Cup. They need to get in some battles first.

All of that without acknowledging the business side of the equation, that if it does help cover up their biggest weakness just a bit, and give them that small edge to make the playoffs, that's extra revenue in Stan and Josh's pocket which will help them see the team has turned the corner, and they can spend more money in the offseason.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Depends on the rest of the roster. In general, that's too much for a bottom 6 player. You guys never make it about the money though. You just ***** and ***** and ***** about how terrible of a player he is and how much a liability he is and how he is just terrible for the team. I'm not even joking when I say some of you guys make him out to be the root of everything that is evil in Avs land. The disrespect is absurd. It's one thing to say "man, sure would be nice to have that cap space and not need to pay a bottom 6er like a top 6er". Totally different to act like every little mistake makes him such a bad player and this humongous liability who shouldn't even be on the ice.

No he's not single handedly ruining the team but the issues he presents effects the roster. Is playing him where and when he shouldn't be helping him or the team? Nobody seemed to care this much about the respect factor when it was Briere.

I get everyone's sentiment, and don't totally disagree. However I don't like expending assets just to get a healthy version of Stuart for less than thirty games when we have another option. At least ****ing try it for a week or so before going that route.

Pretty much. If they want to spread the pairs out then bring up Zadorov.

I get using assets to get better but if it just results in finishing with 86 points instead of 85 isn't exactly the best use of them.

 

[henchman21]

I'm not saying play him 20 minutes a night, honestly just giving Bigras some of FB's PK time would help FB a lot.

Those pairings are more for the beginning and middle of periods, you could play them both 15-17 minutes a night with those guys, the rest EJ & FB together, and use the rookies to cut down on FBs PK time.

It would accomplish the same goal IMO.

Yeah you might end up playing Zads & Bigras together for a few minutes a night, but that's doable IMO. If you really wanted to avoid ever putting them on the ice together, you could use Barrie next to them on some sheltered shifts as well.

I get everyone's sentiment, and don't totally disagree. However I don't like expending assets just to get a healthy version of Stuart for less than thirty games when we have another option. At least ****ing try it for a week or so before going that route.

There is a chemistry quotient that you can't swap around the pairings all the time to even out the minutes... especially when so many things have to be done on the fly.

I don't think it accomplishes the same things at all. I understand not wanting to spend a ton of assets... I don't understand not wanting to spend any. Prospects are not like Pokemon... you don't have to have them all.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I will say this, if Roy waits too long as he often does to do something the ship will have already sunk.

#1 Rantanen needs to be called up

#2 The defense needs to be figured out, Zads or NHL caliber bottom pairing addition whatever.

If they don't do something soon it will be futile, so I'm a little afraid once they actually do decide to make those changes it will be too late.

 

[CobraAcesS]

There is a chemistry quotient that you can't swap around the pairings all the time to even out the minutes... especially when so many things have to be done on the fly.

I don't think it accomplishes the same things at all. I understand not wanting to spend a ton of assets... I don't understand not wanting to spend any. Prospects are not like Pokemon... you don't have to have them all.

LMAO, that was pretty good.

They just better not wait too long, panic and spend a 2nd round pick on this idea.