Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) ‎

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S E P H

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Man that would be an odd turn of events. Varly steals a boatload of games and pulls this crappy defense out of last place into playoff contention and picking in the middle of the 1st round instead of top 5. Just to be traded for the Avs to move up to a top 5 pick at the draft.
Lol and not even for a franchise player. That would be the dumbest move I think could happen. I still have a lot of faith in Varlamov, he needs to be in an environment that can prove he can win big games. He's had just too few of chances, but his record hasn't been good in big games. 3 years from now it could make a difference, but Pickard is easily the one you trade before Varly.

7 years got them 6 whole players and as you point out, have flaws. They are good enough to make the playoffs but so are about 25 other rosters in the league. Other than that, have the built anything significant or special, not really. I believed in where they were headed but if they feel like this group is at a crossroads and they need to make a decision then I guess that's what's going to happen.
Yeah we had unfortunate problems like Stastny and O'Reilly, but it's not like Hawks hadn't either. They're going to let Ladd walk after giving up a 1st and Dano for him and they had to trade Saad like we had to trade ROR. Now I don't think it's quite fair to compare the two because Hawks are one of the few with a great core, just saying that they had their mishaps as well.

I still do not think Pracey was as terrible as people say he is when it came to building the core, but some of the drafting that would increase this squads depth was definitely a fire-able offense. This team could have had Tatar over Elliott, Bjugstad over Hishon, and Severson over Heard right now. Not going to include Bleackley since he was traded for a good return and Siemens since injures just has outdone him. Though at the same time we can say this about any team. Hell even with Hawks core, they missed just an absolute ton of picks, and top ones as well. For every Keith, there was like Skille and Kyle Beach (just look at their 2005 draft, wow that was brutal, but they got a core piece in it).

Sakic and Roy know more than me, but everything I've seen says that this club will be more like the Sharks than the Lightning. I'd trade a core piece more to shake things up mentality than it being a talent issue, but the mental side is very important IMO. I don't know if you think the same. :)
 

tigervixxxen

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Development is part of it too, I think some of it is system and some of it is just opportunity, either giving a player a chance or having time for their particular skill set. So I don't like to look at a draft like they could have had so and so because maybe that player worked out because of development and opportunity as well.
 

henchman21

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Who is then?

Landeskog is... He goes through ups and downs himself, but he consistently puts up 20-25g 35-40a while playing in all situations and normally on the top line. At the beginning of every season you know what Landy will produce for that year. He has been in that range for every season except the lockout year where he had the concussion and the team fell apart. Beyond that 5 out of his 6 years have been pretty much the same. He gets a load of crap every day too... which is the definition of consistency. :naughty:

If ROR was still around, it would be argued that he was the most consistent player since the start of the 2011 season.

Varly on the other hand over that same period has put up numbers that vary from .903 to .927 sv percentage and 2.41 to 3.02 GAA. Looking at Varly's career as a whole he has been a 2.58 and .917 sort of goalie. The year that he played up to his capabilities he was 2.41 and .927... as time goes on that looks more and more like an outlier than what he consistently is. Even going beyond that though... in 13-14 Varly wasn't allowing many soft goals. That is the only year he has been here where you didn't come to expect soft goals on a consistent basis. Right now and even to an extent last year, you expect one every couple games. Is Varly better than his first couple years here? Of course... the question is he closer to where he is today or the 13-14 season?
 

Foppa2118

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Landeskog is... He goes through ups and downs himself, but he consistently puts up 20-25g 35-40a while playing in all situations and normally on the top line. At the beginning of every season you know what Landy will produce for that year. He has been in that range for every season except the lockout year where he had the concussion and the team fell apart. Beyond that 5 out of his 6 years have been pretty much the same. He gets a load of crap every day too... which is the definition of consistency. :naughty:

If ROR was still around, it would be argued that he was the most consistent player since the start of the 2011 season.

Varly on the other hand over that same period has put up numbers that vary from .903 to .927 sv percentage and 2.41 to 3.02 GAA. Looking at Varly's career as a whole he has been a 2.58 and .917 sort of goalie. The year that he played up to his capabilities he was 2.41 and .927... as time goes on that looks more and more like an outlier than what he consistently is. Even going beyond that though... in 13-14 Varly wasn't allowing many soft goals. That is the only year he has been here where you didn't come to expect soft goals on a consistent basis. Right now and even to an extent last year, you expect one every couple games. Is Varly better than his first couple years here? Of course... the question is he closer to where he is today or the 13-14 season?

I don't think that's completely fair to look at his numbers when he's not completely on his game. Not with the defense he's had in front of him in his tenure. All goaltenders will have some inconsistency to their game, even the best ones, and even throughout the course of a season.

Difference between Varly and someone like Quick or Lundquist or even Holtby, is their teams have solid D cores to help them out. Varly gets almost no help from his D core in his off games. If he's not in top form they're probably not winning. When he is in top form he's stealing multiple games in a season and bailing out his team.

When was the last time the team in front of Varly bailed him out when he was having an off night? NYR, LA, and Washington do that for their goalies. They certainly don't wear them out with the workloads Varly has to endure either which I'm sure plays a role in him having off nights.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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Canucks just completely botched that situation. They waited too long and helped create that distraction themselves.

Which is exactly what the Avs need to be sure not to do with our current situation.


If that means taking a gamble on Pickard this summer and moving Varly then that's what they should do. Or vice versa, if another team really likes Calvin and he fits the age of that team better(CGY, TOR, ARI fit this idea) then maybe we move Pickard this summer instead and gamble on Varly returning to form next year.



And we may still have a year or so to make that decision. Maybe both Varly and Picks are ok with being in a 1A/1B duel next year for the spot and then we move one at the deadline of next year or next summer.
 

henchman21

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I don't think that's completely fair to look at his numbers when he's not completely on his game. Not with the defense he's had in front of him in his tenure. All goaltenders will have some inconsistency to their game, even the best ones, and even throughout the course of a season.

Difference between Varly and someone like Quick or Lundquist or even Holtby, is their teams have solid D cores to help them out. Varly gets almost no help from his D core in his off games. If he's not in top form they're probably not winning. When he is in top form he's stealing multiple games in a season and bailing out his team.

When was the last time the team in front of Varly bailed him out when he was having an off night? NYR, LA, and Washington do that for their goalies. They certainly don't wear them out with the workloads Varly has to endure either which I'm sure plays a role in him having off nights.

It isn't all numbers... it is that he is routinely giving up soft goals, and that has been a problem throughout his career (save for 13-14). It is pretty clear he isn't 100% on his game right now, I don't think anybody thinks he is. The question is what can you consistently count on from him? For most of his time here, he has been very up and down. The highs are very high, the lows tend to be low. All goalies have some inconsistency, but Varly has more than most... certainly more than a top 10 goalie should have. There is no doubt that when he is on, he can steal games with the very best in the NHL. He just isn't always on, and over the past two seasons, he simply hasn't been on enough to justify the lows... at least on his salary.

It is hard to display that without numbers... I think we can all say sub .900 is unacceptable for anybody in any system nowadays. Right?

Holtby might be an unfair example, but he hasn't had a month under .900 sv percentage since January of 2014 (only 2 since January 2012). Hank was also brought up as an example (another team that relies on their goalie)... he has had 3 months since October 2013 until now. So maybe those are unfair comparisons... what about Crawford? 3 sub .900 months since Oct 2013. Lou? 1 since Oct 2013. Bishop? 1 since Oct 2013. Anderson? 2 since Oct 2013. The Flower? 2 since Oct 2013. Quick? 1 since Oct 2013. Niemi? 4 since Oct 2013. Average starting NHL goalies don't have that many bad months. I think we can say that 3 or 4 bad months like that over a 2-3 year period of time would show at least some level of inconsistency. Varly has 3 this season... 5 since the October 2014 (also 5 since Oct 2013).
 

Foppa2118

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It isn't all numbers... it is that he is routinely giving up soft goals, and that has been a problem throughout his career (save for 13-14). It is pretty clear he isn't 100% on his game right now, I don't think anybody thinks he is. The question is what can you consistently count on from him? For most of his time here, he has been very up and down. The highs are very high, the lows tend to be low. All goalies have some inconsistency, but Varly has more than most... certainly more than a top 10 goalie should have. There is no doubt that when he is on, he can steal games with the very best in the NHL. He just isn't always on, and over the past two seasons, he simply hasn't been on enough to justify the lows... at least on his salary.

It is hard to display that without numbers... I think we can all say sub .900 is unacceptable for anybody in any system nowadays. Right?

Holtby might be an unfair example, but he hasn't had a month under .900 sv percentage since January of 2014 (only 2 since January 2012). Hank was also brought up as an example (another team that relies on their goalie)... he has had 3 months since October 2013 until now. So maybe those are unfair comparisons... what about Crawford? 3 sub .900 months since Oct 2013. Lou? 1 since Oct 2013. Bishop? 1 since Oct 2013. Anderson? 2 since Oct 2013. The Flower? 2 since Oct 2013. Quick? 1 since Oct 2013. Niemi? 4 since Oct 2013. Average starting NHL goalies don't have that many bad months. I think we can say that 3 or 4 bad months like that over a 2-3 year period of time would show at least some level of inconsistency. Varly has 3 this season... 5 since the October 2014 (also 5 since Oct 2013).

But that's kind of my point. He isn't on his game right now, but how would Varly look right now on a team with a decent defense let alone a good one like many of the top goaltenders have? This would be a total non issue just like it is when Lundquist or Quick have sub par stretches during seasons like they do almost every year.

I don't think "routinely give up a soft goal" is a fair assessment either. He goes through small parts of seasons where this is occasionally an issue. And even with that, I think you still have to factor in the fact that he is worked insanely hard every game with the amount of saves he has to make, many of them very good ones. Other top goalies aren't worked this hard game in and game out. If he wasn't put through the ringer every year maybe he wouldn't have the low points in seasons or soft goals.

There is no way they can know if Pickard can handle these rigors better than Varly without putting him through the same test. Making him face these shot totals for weeks and months on end as the starter and see if he can go entire seasons without some down games or soft goals. At least put him in a 50-50 situation where they share the net for an entire season.

He's looked great in his handful of games, and if I were to bet, I'd say he probably could end up a good #1, but they absolutely can not gamble on that based off him stepping in every once in a while. It took them almost a decade to find a competatnt starter before they finally got Varly. They have to be very careful they don't put themselves back in that same position.
 

henchman21

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But that's kind of my point. He isn't on his game right now, but how would Varly look right now on a team with a decent defense let alone a good one like many of the top goaltenders have? This would be a total non issue just like it is when Lundquist or Quick have sub par stretches during seasons like they do almost every year.

I don't think "routinely give up a soft goal" is a fair assessment either. He goes through small parts of seasons where this is occasionally an issue. And even with that, I think you still have to factor in the fact that he is worked insanely hard every game with the amount of saves he has to make, many of them very good ones. Other top goalies aren't worked this hard game in and game out. If he wasn't put through the ringer every year maybe he wouldn't have the low points in seasons or soft goals.

There is no way they can know if Pickard can handle these rigors better than Varly without putting him through the same test. Making him face these shot totals for weeks and months on end as the starter and see if he can go entire seasons without some down games or soft goals. At least put him in a 50-50 situation where they share the net for an entire season.

He's looked great in his handful of games, and if I were to bet, I'd say he probably could end up a good #1, but they absolutely can not gamble on that based off him stepping in every once in a while. It took them almost a decade to find a competatnt starter before they finally got Varly. They have to be very careful they don't put themselves back in that same position.

The point of that was saying that Varly has stretches that are far below what should be expected of any goalie in any system. I still maintain that the Avs' system inflates save percentage a bit since there are so many shots, but either way that can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. On Hank... his team relies on the goalie in a similar matter. I don't expect Varly to be as good, but he shouldn't be significantly worse either. The stats bear out that Varly has more down months (by any system) than most goalies do. It doesn't mean he is worst, just that he is inconsistent.

I think it is fair at this point. Varly has given up a lot of goals that are of the 'he should have had it variety' of late and throughout the past couple seasons. He had some in 13-14, but when he was in net, you pretty much expected him save the ones he could get.

It is entirely possible the workload is too much, but Varly tends to do a lot better when facing a lot of shots... his record while facing a 35-40+ shots has to be one of the best in the NHL. He tends to lose some focus when not facing as many.

A platoon might be the worst possible choice. It is what Vancouver did and it backfired. It is what St Louis has done for years and isn't working. Teams need a 55-60 game starter that you can count on in the playoffs to contend. Not a platoon. It just causes too many questions and both goalies never fully get comfortable.
 

cgf

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Varly has been off and on all year. Healthy, injured, focused, destracted, who knows how he is going to play. It's been a tale of two seasons for EJ, pre- and post-injury.

EJ had a rough started to the season before rounding into form, and eventually getting injured. Varly was great once he came back healthy, until his court case. *shrug* not seeing how they're all that dissimilar. Both have 3 distinct chapters to their seasons; the less than ideal start, them playing up to their talent for a long time, and finally their recent struggles.
 

Jarey Curry

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Do you guys think that Soderberg goes to waste in the third line?
Landy Mac Boedker
Grigo Soder Duchene
Comeau Matthias Iginla
Mcleod Mitchell Skille
Frees up Dutchy to do more damage and utilizes Soderbergs offensive talents more
I aint a fan of that 3rd line though maybe add Rantanen?
 

StayAtHomeAv

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EJ had a rough started to the season before rounding into form, and eventually getting injured. Varly was great once he came back healthy, until his court case. *shrug* not seeing how they're all that dissimilar. Both have 3 distinct chapters to their seasons; the less than ideal start, them playing up to their talent for a long time, and finally their recent struggles.

Varly has been much more inconsistent than that. He will have a good game then a bad one, then 3 good ones, then 3 bad, a couple good, a couple bad. The best stretch he had was 8 in a row. Other than that it's been back and forth with 1-4 good, followed by 1-4 bad. He has been off and on all year.

And for a guy who played great after being accused of whatever he actually was accused of I'm not sure I buy the court case excuse, especially since he won the case.
 

tigervixxxen

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Varly has been much more inconsistent than that. He will have a good game then a bad one, then 3 good ones, then 3 bad, a couple good, a couple bad. The best stretch he had was 8 in a row. Other than that it's been back and forth with 1-4 good, followed by 1-4 bad. He has been off and on all year.

And for a guy who played great after being accused of whatever he actually was accused of I'm not sure I buy the court case excuse, especially since he won the case.

After he was arrested he never stopped playing, he sat in the court room for a week and a half this time. I don't think it would mentally bother him now, it's more the time off and time missed and non physical activity. I don't think it's entirely the issue, it's been long enough now that he's back in shape and all that.
 

cgf

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Sometimes it's easier to handle something in the moment, than it is years later; when you've thought that you'd long since put it behind you. *shrug*
 

Foppa2118

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The point of that was saying that Varly has stretches that are far below what should be expected of any goalie in any system. I still maintain that the Avs' system inflates save percentage a bit since there are so many shots, but either way that can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. On Hank... his team relies on the goalie in a similar matter. I don't expect Varly to be as good, but he shouldn't be significantly worse either. The stats bear out that Varly has more down months (by any system) than most goalies do. It doesn't mean he is worst, just that he is inconsistent.

I think it is fair at this point. Varly has given up a lot of goals that are of the 'he should have had it variety' of late and throughout the past couple seasons. He had some in 13-14, but when he was in net, you pretty much expected him save the ones he could get.

It is entirely possible the workload is too much, but Varly tends to do a lot better when facing a lot of shots... his record while facing a 35-40+ shots has to be one of the best in the NHL. He tends to lose some focus when not facing as many.

A platoon might be the worst possible choice. It is what Vancouver did and it backfired. It is what St Louis has done for years and isn't working. Teams need a 55-60 game starter that you can count on in the playoffs to contend. Not a platoon. It just causes too many questions and both goalies never fully get comfortable.

Varly plays at his best when he gets a lot of shots within a game, but that's not the same as the heavy workload I'm referring to. The heavy workload having an affect on him is the cumulative one of all those games facing large shot totals. That's what I think we have to take into account when judging his down periods.

Would having a competent defense eliminate that cumulative workload, and perhaps eliminate those down periods that may be caused by pushing him past what any goaltender is capable of physically and mentally to stay consistent?

By that same token, Picks hasn't been put to anywhere near the same test. There's no reason whatsoever to think, except by sure guess work, that he'll fare better without the same inconsistencies.

I don't like the idea of a platoon either. In fact I hate it when teams do it, because of the unsettling environment it always causes. The point of doing such is a last resort kind of method. You don't want to fully give up on your starter, but you can't just ditch him either on faith that Pickard will be better based off a few games in a less than backup tested environment.

He hasn't even been tested in a true backup role over enough games. There have been far too many goalies have success over a small sample of games, only to prove incapable over a larger sample.

This brief period of going with the hot hand aside, the job should be Varly's until he loses it. He's proven far far more than Pickard has in the NHL. He really hasn't been all that bad recently either. He hasn't even let in the kind of soft goals we've seen from other poor goalies, including goalies of the Avs past. He just hasn't made the big saves. There's a difference, and we've seen him countless times make those same big saves in the past, so we know he's capable.

He deserves to be judged with a better than dog**** defense playing in front of him. If they're considering Picks for the long run, and I think there's a lot of reasons that could make sense, than they need to bite the bullet and go with a platoon next year to see if he can win the job. Not just give it to him on faith based on 30-40 games. That's a recipe for disaster.
 

chet1926

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He hasn't been himself since the trial.

This. It was a huge distraction, and sad that he had to be dragged through that by that crazy lady. Not sure why it's still affecting him especially since the jury sided with him. You'd think it would have been a huge weight off his shoulders, but for some reason it still seems to drag him down.
 

Foppa2118

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This. It was a huge distraction, and sad that he had to be dragged through that by that crazy lady. Not sure why it's still affecting him especially since the jury sided with him. You'd think it would have been a huge weight off his shoulders, but for some reason it still seems to drag him down.

It's entirely possible the emotional fatigue from it just finally being over affected him. Very similar to a Stanley Cup hangover. You stay focused for so long, and then you finally get what you were fighting for, and you relax to an extent. It's human nature.
 

Foppa2118

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I was really happy after reading Barrie want to put emphasis on bearing down on his defensive play, but I noticed something after seeing the Post mention how impressive it was that he was 8th in D man scoring, and a few Avs fans talk about how important it is to have a defenseman like him to team success.

Right now, of the teams with the top 5 records in the West (CHI, DAL, STL, LA, ANA), and the top 7 teams in the East (WAS, NYR, TB, FLA, BOS, NYI, DET), only one team (Dallas with Klingberg) has a defenseman that is in the top 10 in D man scoring.

That's basically the elite teams in the league proving that having a more balanced, two way presence on your D core is way more important than having a premier offensive puck mover.
 

PAZ

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I was really happy after reading Barrie want to put emphasis on bearing down on his defensive play, but I noticed something after seeing the Post mention how impressive it was that he was 8th in D man scoring, and a few Avs fans talk about how important it is to have a defenseman like him to team success.

Right now, of the teams with the top 5 records in the West (CHI, DAL, STL, LA, ANA), and the top 7 teams in the East (WAS, NYR, TB, FLA, BOS, NYI, DET), only one team (Dallas with Klingberg) has a defenseman that is in the top 10 in D man scoring.

That's basically the elite teams in the league proving that having a more balanced, two way presence on your D core is way more important than having a premier offensive puck mover.

That's a very narrow-sighted view. I've listed every team's #1 PMD/OFD, and bolded all the ones that have a similar role as Barrie. Of the bolded, a few are a bit better at defense, but ideally they'd all be the #3; the exception is Klingberg and Carlson. Not to mention if you go back a few years, almost every bolded player was a top 10 D-man in scoring at seasons end.

CHI - Keith
DAL - Klingberg
STL - Shatty
LA - Doughty
ANA - Vatanen

WAS - Carlson
NYR - Yandle
TB - Hedman
FLA - Campbell
NYI - Leddy
DET - Green
 

InjuredChoker

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plus, keith and carlson aren't far off in ppg. hedman is having a bit of a down year points wise but is up there with the best in past 3 seasons.

that's not to say barrie is on the level of those guys in terms of overall game or will ever be. but we aren't getting a guy like those elite teams have as their #1 guy for barrie anyway.

and some of those teams would surely love to have guy like barrie.

i also personally have pens as a top 3 team in the east. and habs would be up there if price hadn't been injured.
 

ABasin

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After he was arrested he never stopped playing, he sat in the court room for a week and a half this time. I don't think it would mentally bother him now, it's more the time off and time missed and non physical activity. I don't think it's entirely the issue, it's been long enough now that he's back in shape and all that.

We'll never know, but I'd wager that the trial is irrelevant. I suspect that no goaltender in the world could consistently play well behind Colorado's defense and overall team play.


Edit: Or maybe he has another tweaked groin, and is trying to play through it.
 
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Balthazar

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He hasn't been himself since the trial.

He was awesome just before the trial (when you'd think he should be distracted). Just like he was in God mode before and during the investigation 2 years ago and then went on a slump when it was over (and the following season). It seems like he's at his best when there's off ice **** going on? That's quite bizarre.

If Picks can continue doing the job I'd have no problem trading Varly this offseason. I think we can get a decent return from a team looking for a #1 goalie (Edmonton?) and we could clear some precious cap space.
 

CB Joe

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I don't think the trial has anything to do with it. It's the ****** coaching. Replace Roy. Have him take a front office job.
 

agentblack

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Picks next 50 -60 games over the next year could determine the fate of both goalies. Not saying they will end up trading Varly but it could turn into Mrazek/Howard 2.0.
 
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