Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part XVI

[detrude]

They care about doing right by veterans, not everyone.

In the case of that Alex Lyon, what could the promise have been? It's not like he's in the NHL right now or has been called up. Just that he'd be next in the pecking order? I see some of these hot college FAs sent to even the ECHL the following year all the time too. Not the top of the crop but still some of the ones who had suitors.

Sure, but they also don't make promises that other organizations do to close the deal, which is the other part of that point. Speculation on my part, but based on other things Sakic says and does it seems like this is because he wants to be upfront and honest with players, and not get into a situation where he has to go back on his word. That's a very player-first mindset.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I think that's how they rationalized it after the fact. That's probably how they sold it to Alex too. He never seemed too happy about it though.

I'm just saying there is a chance there that the move supports the side of the argument where Sakic puts the players before the organization far too often.

On your side of that argument they also seemed to be at odds with Stuart at the end. There is definitely some instances where they were not afraid to damage their image with certain veteran players.

The whole organization just wreaks of hypocrisy at times though, so who knows how those situations fit in. Normally logic would dictate, but that does not seem to be the case with them lol.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm just saying there is a chance there that the move supports the side of the argument where Sakic puts the players before the organization far too often.

On your side of that argument they also seemed to be at odds with Stuart at the end. There is definitely some instances where they were not afraid to damage their image with certain veteran players.

The whole organization just wreaks of hypocrisy at times though, so who knows how those situations fit in. Normally logic would dictate, but that does not seem to be the case with them lol.

I share your feelings on the last point though I don't think it's necessarily hypocrisy. It's a lack of a strong vision and direction from the top IMO. They kind of have an idea of where they want to be in the future, but not a real strong idea of how to get there.

That same issue tends to the problems with the team in general too. I think Joe thought they could get there by patience alone, and thus have ignored UFA and trade because they didn't like the prices. They didn't realize the pressure this put on drafting to save their butts, and that it hasn't been anywhere near good enough to do so.

I think Joe's a great person and was a great player, but I've never had the sense he has a particularly strong analytical mind.

 

[Freudian]

I don't think that's as big a problem as people make it out to be either. At least under the current group. After they recouped some of their picks, they've basically only lost three picks and swapped a 3rd for a 4th in 2017.

You can't count recouping the picks as a zero sum transaction for Avs.

If they hadn't traded the 2nd for Stuart they could have traded the 31st overall pick for something else, gaining Avs picks. Now they just desperately tried to get back picks they wasted.

 

[Foppa2118]

You can't count recouping the picks as a zero sum transaction for Avs.

If they hadn't traded the 2nd for Stuart they could have traded the 31st overall pick for something else, gaining Avs picks. Now they just desperately tried to get back picks they wasted.

It's not a zero sum transaction but that wasn't the context of the conversation. The context was whether or not they lost a lot of picks and that affected their draft success. I was pointing out how many they ended up with.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Oh and the swapping out is going from 63 to like 120. That's quite a difference.

Losing picks absolutely had impacted their draft success but I'm not going to be around to argue that further.

 

[Foppa2118]

Oh and the swapping out is going from 63 to like 120. That's quite a difference.

Losing picks absolutely had impacted their draft success but I'm not going to be around to argue that further.

How does that compare to other teams? I'm too lazy to count up all the picks from each team over the last four years, but I'd be surprised if they really had that many fewer, if at all, than the average.

 

[tigervixxxen]

How does that compare to other teams? I'm too lazy to count up all the picks from each team over the last four years, but I'd be surprised if they really had that many fewer, if at all, than the average.

For me I'd look at top 100 picks (or 101, I'll include that one). I can't count everyone's up right now but this draft Carolina has 7, I think Detroit does too. Tampa had 19 total picks the last two years too

 

[CobraAcesS]

I share your feelings on the last point though I don't think it's necessarily hypocrisy. It's a lack of a strong vision and direction from the top IMO. They kind of have an idea of where they want to be in the future, but not a real strong idea of how to get there.

That same issue tends to the problems with the team in general too. I think Joe thought they could get there by patience alone, and thus have ignored UFA and trade because they didn't like the prices. They didn't realize the pressure this put on drafting to save their butts, and that it hasn't been anywhere near good enough to do so.

I think Joe's a great person and was a great player, but I've never had the sense he has a particularly strong analytical mind.

I just have a really hard time reconciling the fact that some of the mistakes they make fall into a category of common sense decisions. Maybe it isn't intentional, but some of the decisions seem to be made by someone living in a ****ing box.

I do think the conflicted bipolar way Sakic and Roy have handled the franchise is pretty easy to explain with the differences between them. What I was hoping was that with just Sakic running things that would change somewhat, and it still has a chance of changing. Right now I'm just pissed they are not using this time to bring up more than just Compher, and creating a work like atmosphere where the players and team value the experience that the younger players are getting. Get to work building the foundation, and even the veteran players (Ones with contracts) should get some motivation from that.

Nope, they're just going to **** away what little value that can be pulled from the remaining games of the season. Everyone is going to be expected to come into next season with a fresh mindset having been allowed to finish this season without an obvious change in the culture or at least starting down that path.

Compher by himself isn't enough IMO, but I have to admit Compher coming in and saying the things hes said and approaching his game and the team with a blue collar attitude is impressive, and something we need more of. Compher sounds like a player who was a Captain of a successful NCAA team.

http://bsndenver.com/compher-not-satisfied-with-early-play-eager-to-improve/

 

[Freudian]

It's not a zero sum transaction but that wasn't the context of the conversation. The context was whether or not they lost a lot of picks and that affected their draft success. I was pointing out how many they ended up with.

They lost the 2nd rounder for Stuart. Period. Without that trade, they could still have traded down from 31st and gotten additional assets.

Stuart cost Avs a second round pick.
Berra cost Avs a second round pick.
Boedker cost Avs a second round pick and Kyle Wood.

Without those trades, Avs would have had those assets. Three second round picks in three summers as a rebuilding team is quite the pick leakage.

 

[Foppa2118]

For me I'd look at top 100 picks (or 101, I'll include that one). I can't count everyone's up right now but this draft Carolina has 7, I think Detroit does too. Tampa had 19 total picks the last two years too

Right but that's not necessarily a fair comparison. They might be the outliers.

To really be fair we'd have to look at each team, and then since we're talking about how the number of picks has a big impact on draft success, we'd have to look at how each of those teams did with the picks they had.

There are certainly teams that don't do well despite having a lot of picks and vice versa.

 

[Foppa2118]

They lost the 2nd rounder for Stuart. Period. Without that trade, they could still have traded down from 31st and gotten additional assets.

Stuart cost Avs a second round pick.
Berra cost Avs a second round pick.
Boedker cost Avs a second round pick and Kyle Wood.

Without those trades, Avs would have had those assets. Three second round picks in three summers as a rebuilding team is quite the pick leakage.

I understand what you were saying I just don't see why such a big hypothetical (in terms of trading that pick for more picks) carries that much weight. Especially since the Avs very rarely do that. They like to keep their picks.

They didn't have any pick leakage with the 2nd in the Stuart trade. They got that exact pick back from SJ.

Also Boedker cost them the ability to add another 2nd round pick. It's not the same as losing their own. What they lost was a prospect or a potential added pick. So again that doesn't qualify as "pick leakage."

 

[Freudian]

I understand what you were saying I just don't see why such a big hypothetical (in terms of trading that pick for more picks) carries that much weight. Especially since the Avs very rarely do that. They like to keep their picks.

They didn't have any pick leakage with the 2nd in the Stuart trade. They got that exact pick back from SJ.

Also Boedker cost them the ability to add another 2nd round pick. It's not the same as losing their own. What they lost was a prospect or a potential added pick. So again that doesn't qualify as "pick leakage."

By trading down, using another asset.

Without the Stuart trade, Avs could have gotten two of San Jose's second rounds when San Jose wanted to trade up. Avs would have gained a second rounder in the process.

 

[Avs44]

I understand what you were saying I just don't see why such a big hypothetical (in terms of trading that pick for more picks) carries that much weight. Especially since the Avs very rarely do that. They like to keep their picks.

They didn't have any pick leakage with the 2nd in the Stuart trade. They got that exact pick back from SJ.

Also Boedker cost them the ability to add another 2nd round pick. It's not the same as losing their own. What they lost was a prospect or a potential added pick. So again that doesn't qualify as "pick leakage."

You're arguing a technicality. Yes, it's technically not "leakage" in the way you're using that term if they eventually recouped their pick, or traded a potential pick that was not one of their original 7. But it's still a blown pick they they could have, and should have, had. That is all that matters.

 

[Foppa2118]

By trading down, using another asset.

Without the Stuart trade, Avs could have gotten two of San Jose's second rounds when San Jose wanted to trade up. Avs would have gained a second rounder in the process.

That's a separate discussion. Your talking about asset management and value. The topic I was discussion was "did the Avs lack of picks hurt them?" They didn't lose that pick.

You're arguing a technicality. Yes, it's technically not "leakage" in the way you're using that term if they eventually recouped their pick, or traded a potential pick that was not one of their original 7. But it's still a blown pick they they could have, and should have, had. That is all that matters.

Losing Bleackley is more an example of what I'm talking about, that the actual drafting is what hurt them more so than the lack of picks.

You get seven picks every year. Losing what would have been an additional 2nd rounder isn't an example of the Avs "lack of picks." It's an example of a lost prospect. However, the 4th rounder they gave up for Matthias is, because that was their pick.

 

[The Merchant]

They lost the 2nd rounder for Stuart. Period. Without that trade, they could still have traded down from 31st and gotten additional assets.

Stuart cost Avs a second round pick.
Berra cost Avs a second round pick.
Boedker cost Avs a second round pick and Kyle Wood.

Without those trades, Avs would have had those assets. Three second round picks in three summers as a rebuilding team is quite the pick leakage.

This post hurts my heart.

 

[Matheus]

Some random questions:
Why year after year with terrible season, why they never try Sign a veteran Gm that actualy can make some trades?
Why the AVS never hire a experienced coach and coaching staff?? Maybe a fetish with a rookie coaches... I dont know
Too many ex avs players too many friends too much patience... Its time to make some noise. I Just hate the idea to give Bednar another shot, its not his fault but he could be better.

 

[Foppa2118]

Some random questions:
Why year after year with terrible season, why they never try Sign a veteran Gm that actualy can make some trades?
Why the AVS never hire a experienced coach and coaching staff?? Maybe a fetish with a rookie coaches... I dont know
Too many ex avs players too many friends too much patience... Its time to make some noise. I Just hate the idea to give Bednar another shot, its not his fault but he could be better.

They've never operated this way for some reason. I'm not sure if it's a Kroenke thing, or if it's just Josh and other upper management being influenced by PL's philosophies.

All their GM's and all their head coach's except Quenneville have been NHL rookies in their positions.

Pierre Lacroix
Francois Giguerre
Greg Sherman
Joe Sakic

Marc Crawford
Bob Hartley
Tony Granato
Joe Sacco
Patrick Roy
Jared Bednar

All rookies that have had to learn on the job what works in the NHL. You could count Granato's second tenure as NHL experienced though I guess.

 

[Matheus]

I dont know Just keep simple and hire a proven guy. Please stop try discover New talents 95% of times we have problems

 

[Foppa2118]

I dont know Just keep simple and hire a proven guy. Please stop try discover New talents 95% of times we have problems

Totally agree. It seems so obvious at this point that this has contributed to their decade of problems and lack of direction. Hopefully whenever they replace Joe and Bednar they don't bring in MacFarland and some other rookie head coach.

First step towards fixing this problem is a clean slate and the addition of experienced NHL coaches and management.

 

[NJ All Day]

Hypothetically, after the lottery, the Avs pick is #1 and NJs pick is #4...

What could a realistic trade look like?

I'm thinking something like

Patrick/Hischier (1oa) for Liljegren (4oa) +

Avs would draft a D instead of trading Duchene for one in this scenario.

Cheers!

 

[tigervixxxen]

And what would that + be? Doubt we would take any D that high in this draft even at 4.

 

[Avs44]

Hypothetically, after the lottery, the Avs pick is #1 and NJs pick is #4...

What could a realistic trade look like?

I'm thinking something like

Patrick/Hischier (1oa) for Liljegren (4oa) +

Avs would draft a D instead of trading Duchene for one in this scenario.

Cheers!

Doesn't sound like Liljegren belongs at 4, and regardless, drafting an 18 year old defensman to be the saviour on the back end, while keeping the 26 year old whose contract expires in 2 years makes zero sense. Far rather draft Patrick or Hischier and move Duchene out. Logically it makes way more sense.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

Doesn't sound like Liljegren belongs at 4, and regardless, drafting an 18 year old defensman to be the saviour on the back end, while keeping the 26 year old whose contract expires in 2 years makes zero sense. Far rather draft Patrick or Hischier and move Duchene out. Logically it makes way more sense.

You end up with 2 assets: #4 +, vs #1
Then if you need to trade Duchene for whatever, you do.
you don't HAVE to pick Liljegren with the #4.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Hypothetically, after the lottery, the Avs pick is #1 and NJs pick is #4...

What could a realistic trade look like?

I'm thinking something like

Patrick/Hischier (1oa) for Liljegren (4oa) +

Avs would draft a D instead of trading Duchene for one in this scenario.

Cheers!

Avs probably would not want to draft a D so the plus would have to be a pretty stupid overpayment.