Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part VII

[Avs71]

Push hard, we're almost at part VIII 41 games into a season.

I do think Sakic will throw a ton of money at Alzner/Shattenkirk this summer, if they make it to free agency. Doubt he lands either, but I think he'll try his best.

 

[AslanRH]

I got you. That said, I'd hope it would be Weircioch since he seems to be the least terrible of the bunch.

I'm actually hoping they call Siemens up for at least 30 games to give them even 1 more option. I think his time in the AHL is up in regards to development and he needs to be tested at this level. I'm not saying he can't develop more, but at some point he needs to see how he matches up to the next level.

Umm, I just outlined two possibilities there... You want specifics? Patrick for Hanifin, straight up. They get a potential #1C, we get a potential #1D.

I agree with you here. While Duchene for Hanafin probably makes more sense to the Avs considering age, control, and style, Patrick makes more sense for the Canes too especially considering contract. If Patrick has a strong showing from now until the draft, Francis may even pay a little more for him than he would Duchene.

I think that argument may even hold for Hischier considering their need for offense

 

[McMetal]

I'm actually hoping they call Siemens up for at least 30 games to give them even 1 more option. I think his time in the AHL is up in regards to development and he needs to be tested at this level. I'm not saying he can't develop more, but at some point he needs to see how he matches up to the next level.




I agree with you here. While Duchene for Hanafin probably makes more sense to the Avs considering age, control, and style, Patrick makes more sense for the Canes too especially considering contract. If Patrick has a strong showing from now until the draft, Francis may even pay a little more for him than he would Duchene.

I think that argument may even hold for Hischier considering their need for offense

Agreed on Hischier. They need a top center and Hischier looks to be exactly that. Different styles, but they'll both be capable of playing that role.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Umm, I just outlined two possibilities there... You want specifics? Patrick for Hanifin, straight up. They get a potential #1C, we get a potential #1D.

If they wouldn't trade Hanifin for Duchene why would they trade him for a draft pick?

In theory if they could do that I get what you are saying but no team is going to trade a young defenseman with that upside straight up for a pick.

It's not a quick fix thing here, it's going to take 2-3 years to get it sorted out. Not every hole is going to be filled this summer. Step one is going to be building our asset base.

 

[McMetal]

If they wouldn't trade Hanifin for Duchene why would they trade him for a draft pick?

In theory if they could do that I get what you are saying but no team is going to trade a young defenseman with that upside straight up for a pick.

It's not a quick fix thing here, it's going to take 2-3 years to get it sorted out. Not every hole is going to be filled this summer. Step one is going to be building our asset base.

Not just any draft pick though. Normally, you never know who you're going to get with a pick. If it is 1OA and they know it's Patrick, that changes the value a lot.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Sakic: "Matty, you want to win a cup with us?"

MD: " You know I do!"

Sakic: "OK then I'm gonna trade you to CAR."

MD: "I don't understand."

Sakic: "With the assets I get from trading you, Landy, Barrie and Varly, when you sign back with us in 2 1/2 yrs we'll be in great shape to win one. Are you in?"

MD: "I'm in Joe. See you in a few years."

...

Profit.

 

[lonelybadger]

Imagine!!! That would work perfectly. Plus maybe then he won't have to worry about not scoring every 13 games!

 

[Alex Jones]

Keep in mind though, EJ will probably drop off the top pairing in 2-3 years. We'll need a #1 to replace him by then.

I'm not sure EJ is more than a #3 on a good team today, I would like to dump him this year.

 

[forbzee44]

Anyone here want to see Liligjren drafted instead of Patrick? I'm conflicted, hes a RHD, great praise, but a lot of people are saying he's a barrie clone, I read he definitely had higher potential?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Anyone here want to see Liligjren drafted instead of Patrick? I'm conflicted, hes a RHD, great praise, but a lot of people are saying he's a barrie clone, I read he definitely had higher potential?

I mean we need both. I'm not opposed to taking the Liljegren though if we don't pick #1, I mean I'd rather focus on our defense and stockpile them. But if we pick #1 you gotta go Patrick I think.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Anyone here want to see Liligjren drafted instead of Patrick? I'm conflicted, hes a RHD, great praise, but a lot of people are saying he's a barrie clone, I read he definitely had higher potential?

What are Barrie's two biggest issues? His inability to run a power play, and his size... Neither are an issue for Liljegren. He just may not be able to step right into the NHL after his draft like some of the more physically developed defenders.

 

[JoemAvs]

Anyone here want to see Liligjren drafted instead of Patrick? I'm conflicted, hes a RHD, great praise, but a lot of people are saying he's a barrie clone, I read he definitely had higher potential?

I might be one of his bigger fans on here but I am not sure that you can justify it.

He simply is having a bad season. He had mono so there is an explanation for that but I am not sure that you can justify passing on a "sure-thing" (aside from injuries) like Patrick for a guy like Liljegren right now if you are picking #1.


He for sure has higher potential than Barrie. And I think he has the potential to be way better on the defensive end than Barrie (still has a long way to go, though) and the potential to be better on the offensive end by a significant margin (especially on the PP) as well.


But his ceiling is probably a slightly worse Karlsson or a guy like Subban.

And there is a good argument to be made that the Avs would be better off with a more well-rounded #1 that is better defensively.

Again I personally take him at #3 right now but if he wants to get back into the conversation for #1, he has to realistically start doing something for Timra in the second swedish league.


IMO there is a solid argument for picking Patrick or Hischier this season over him and then going D in the top10 in 2018 (which should be an amazing top10 for Ds) no matter what. But that would be a gamble as well because who knows how the draft board will look 1.5 years from now and where the Avs will pick.

Especially if the Avs can somehow swing a Duchene for Hanifin type of deal before the draft.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I might be one of his bigger fans on here but I am not sure that you can justify it.

He simply is having a bad season. He had mono so there is an explanation for that but I am not sure that you can justify passing on a "sure-thing" (aside from injuries) like Patrick for a guy like Liljegren right now if you are picking #1.


He for sure has higher potential than Barrie. And I think he has the potential to be way better on the defensive end than Barrie (still has a long way to go, though) and the potential to be better on the offensive end by a significant margin (especially on the PP) as well.


But his ceiling is probably a slightly worse Karlsson or a guy like Subban.

And there is a good argument to be made that the Avs would be better off with a more well-rounded #1 that is better defensively.

Again I personally take him at #3 right now but if he wants to get back into the conversation for #1, he has to realistically start doing something for Timra in the second swedish league.


IMO there is a solid argument for picking Patrick or Hischier this season over him and then going D in the top10 in 2018 (which should be an amazing top10 for Ds) no matter what. But that would be a gamble as well because who knows how the draft board will look 1.5 years from now and where the Avs will pick.

Especially if the Avs can somehow swing a Duchene for Hanifin type of deal before the draft.

What if we can't get that young defender for Duchene or Landeskog? If Hall Larsson really is the new precedent, then we might not.

 

[The Abusement Park]

What if we can't get that young defender for Duchene or Landeskog? If Hall Larsson really is the new precedent, then we might not.

Well Duchene for Hanifin is more than fair I'd say. Duchene is more valuable than Hall IMO and Hanifin is less valuable then Larsson. I do understand why Carolina wouldn't want to give up Noah though.

 

[JoemAvs]

What if we can't get that young defender for Duchene or Landeskog? If Hall Larsson really is the new precedent, then we might not.

Honestly I don't know. And I hope it is not the case. Because it looks Sakic wants to do something and if we can't even get a good young D for those guys, I see no point in trading them.

Probably best to tank for Dahlin in 2018 (which could be hard without trading Duchene or Landy). That sucks but might be the best option. Avs need a young stud D. Preferably one in the Provorov/Hanifin mold that could turn into a great two-way #1D.

I am not opposed to picking Liljegren but after the season he is having right now, I would be OK with passing on him as well.

I mean the difference between the draft year Liljegren is having and the draft year Hischier is having is night and day.

I am simply not sure if you can pick Liljegren over him just because of positional reasons based on toolbox alone.

If we decide to go Liljegren, I personally would not mind it if the Avs lose in the lottery and fall to #3/4.

Would make picking him a lot easier. Because passing on Hischier / Patrick will make you look pretty stupid 1-2 years from now if Liljegren can't bounce back from his mono next season...


That said. As TV pointed out before. I think the GM of Rogle is the european scout for the Avs.

He should know more than almost anyone else about Liljegren.

In the end I would probably trust his judgment. If he says that Liljegren is worth picking #1 overall, the Avs probably have to do it considering their circumstances.

 

[agentblack]

Or we could move the pick down into 3 or 4 and let someone else go NP and we pick up Liljegren

Isles im pretty sure would be amenable to the idea or ARZ

 

[CobraAcesS]

Honestly I don't know. And I hope it is not the case. Because it looks Sakic wants to do something and if we can't even get a good young D for those guys, I see no point in trading them.

Probably best to tank for Dahlin in 2018 (which could be hard without trading Duchene or Landy). That sucks but might be the best option. Avs need a young stud D. Preferably one in the Provorov/Hanifin mold that could turn into a great two-way #1D.

I am not opposed to picking Liljegren but after the season he is having right now, I would be OK with passing on him as well.

I mean the difference between the draft year Liljegren is having and the draft year Hischier is having is night and day.

I am simply not sure if you can pick Liljegren over him just because of positional reasons based on toolbox alone.

If we decide to go Liljegren, I personally would not mind it if the Avs lose in the lottery and fall to #3/4.

Would make picking him a lot easier. Because passing on Hischier / Patrick will make you look pretty stupid 1-2 years from now if Liljegren can't bounce back from his mono next season...


That said. As TV pointed out before. I think the GM of Rogle is the european scout for the Avs.

He should know more than almost anyone else about Liljegren.

In the end I would probably trust his judgment. If he says that Liljegren is worth picking #1 overall, the Avs probably have to do it considering their circumstances.

This makes me feel a lot better as well.

I'm sorry but we said similar things about MacKinnon over Jones, and MacK was a lot more highly touted than anyone in this draft. Hell there was even talk about Jones not being in quite as good of shape as you would expect. The top D in drafts get scrutinized to the 3rd degree.

 

[tigervixxxen]

That said. As TV pointed out before. I think the GM of Rogle is the european scout for the Avs.

He should know more than almost anyone else about Liljegren.

In the end I would probably trust his judgment. If he says that Liljegren is worth picking #1 overall, the Avs probably have to do it considering their circumstances.

I agree, they should know better than anyone, if they truly believe in him. But I don't think Liljegren is going top 5 in this draft.

 

[agentblack]

Well he's probably going in the same spot that Jones, Larsson have gone . History will repeat itself it seems

 

[CobraAcesS]

Maybe once Sakic sees what the offers are for our core forwards, he'll have it emphasized even more than he already knows that you need to draft your top D. Especially a guy that has the exact skill set that the last few Stanley Cup winning Defenders have. With three of them having multiple Stanley Cups as their teams No. 1 defender.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Not all D in every draft is created equal. Do you give up a first overall for a better Jake Bean just to say you drafted defense? That's what we are talking about here.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Not all D in every draft is created equal. Do you give up a first overall for a better Jake Bean just to say you drafted defense? That's what we are talking about here.

Except the forwards are just as weak as well. It's not just Liljegren that does not stack up to a top three pick in a lot of recent drafts.

 

[JoemAvs]

This makes me feel a lot better as well.

I'm sorry but we said similar things about MacKinnon over Jones, and MacK was a lot more highly touted than anyone in this draft. Hell there was even talk about Jones not being in quite as good of shape as you would expect. The top D in drafts get scrutinized to the 3rd degree.

I remember when we won the lottery in 2013 and I was 100% sure that Jones would be the pick.


I talked myself into Mac the following weeks (especially when Sakic made his statement) but I was very much on the Jones train.


I am not sure that it is similar at all.

Yes Mac was a better prospect than Hischier/Patrick.

But IMO the difference between Liljegren and Jones is way, way bigger.

Liljegren right now is a huge risk. Especially with the bad season he is having.

Jones was always gonna play D in the NHL the next season and destined to become atleast a top pairing guy. I mean there even was the "generational D" tag thrown around for him. Hype was massive.


Yes the top Ds always get picked apart right before the draft for whatever reason.

But if that happens again, Liljegren has a good shot at falling out of the top5 or maybe even top10 when Jones after unfairly getting scrutinized was still a homerun pick at #4.

And to this day I still don't understand why on earth Yzerman passed on him at #3.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I remember when we won the lottery in 2013 and I was 100% sure that Jones would be the pick.


I talked myself into Mac the following weeks (especially when Sakic made his statement) but I was very much on the Jones train.


I am not sure that it is similar at all.

Yes Mac was a better prospect than Hischier/Patrick.

But IMO the difference between Liljegren and Jones is way, way bigger.

Liljegren right now is a huge risk. Especially with the bad season he is having.

Jones was always gonna play D in the next season and destined to become atleast a top pairing guy.


Yes the top Ds always get picked apart right before the draft for whatever reason.

But if that happens again, Liljegren has a good shot at falling out of the top5 or maybe even top10 when Jones after unfairly getting scrutinized was still a homerun pick at #4.

And to this day I still don't understand why on earth Yzerman passed on him at #3.

Yeah I understood two teams wanting big high potential centers, but Tampa had the perfect partner for Hedman sitting there waiting for them and they drafted a winger.

I'm sorry but hell people are unsure if Patrick is a sure fire #1 center. So I don't see how it's any different... Especially since both of the forwards and D are considered weak at the top compared to other drafts.

McAvoy has the potential to be a #1 now I guess, and he went after Jost... If that's the level we're talking about here do we want McAvoy, or another Jost?

 

[McMetal]

What if we can't get that young defender for Duchene or Landeskog? If Hall Larsson really is the new precedent, then we might not.

That's the million dollar question. Everybody assumes that's a given and it's really not. If we do trade one of them, yes, pick a forward because your team will suddenly be much worse in the top six. But nobody is considering the idea that plan A might not work out. If so, you need plans B and C.