Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXVII|Crosby+MacK = Tim's Empire

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RoyIsALegend

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A four year deal for Hayes would be fine but I'm guessing that's unlikely in free agency. Someone is probably going to offer something ridiculous like 6 years, $6.5-7M/yr.

I'm down for 6 years of Hayes at $6.5m AAV.

Guys, we all thought Soderberg was slightly overpaid at $4.75m AAV when we signed him. He was supposed to be a 2C at that price and has always been our 3C. Add inflation and maybe $500k and in 2019 we have Hayes. Is $6.5m AAV for a 26 year old ox like that such a bad deal? In 2 or 3 years, he moves to 3C as we hopefully have an ELC as the 2C. His contract will expire when Cozens/Dach/Turcotte need a new deal. If Kevin Hayes is your 3C, you're a Stanley Cup contender.

Man... 6'5", 230 pounds. Good for 50 points. Two-way play. 26 years old. Has had interest in Denver before.

This is a no-brainer for me.

Even if it was just Hayes...

Kerfoot - MacKinnon - Rantanen
Landeskog - Hayes - Compher
Nieto - Soderberg - Calvert
Greer - Jost - UFA/waiver plug

That's a deep team. Size throughout the lineup, a 2nd line that would go up against other teams' top lines, a 3rd line full of chemistry and two-way play, and some youth, speed, size on the 4th line. Probably pickup a veteran for the 4th line anyways.
 
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chet1926

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I agree that we need to add to the second line, but holy **** are people willing to scrape the barrel for it.
I agree some of the names people are infatuated with are just gross.

Hayes, people really want to spend 6.5M plus probably closer to 7M for a younger version of Bozak or Soderberg? No thanks, that sounds quite awful.

Ferland, come on. People are just being size queens on this one. Guy has never had more than 41 pts in a season and is going to ask 5M plus. That's 3rd line quality for a ridiculous pay day.

Johnson? Miller? Kadri? Barf, just no to any of them.

The only person that they should be pressing hard for is Panarin. He makes your to 6 significantly better. Other names mentioned not so much.
 

The Abusement Park

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Meh. He’d be solid but an unspectacular piece to get back for an elite player.

Tyler Johnson. That would be a grand irony too if he ended up heading to the very franchise he politely asked not to draft him because his old man co-owned the team at the time.

I don't it happening though.

I’d love to get Johnson but Barrie isn’t going to Tampa with their cap situation.
 

OwenNolan

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I agree some of the names people are infatuated with are just gross.

Hayes, people really want to spend 6.5M plus probably closer to 7M for a younger version of Bozak or Soderberg? No thanks, that sounds quite awful.

Ferland, come on. People are just being size queens on this one. Guy has never had more than 41 pts in a season and is going to ask 5M plus. That's 3rd line quality for a ridiculous pay day.

Johnson? Miller? Kadri? Barf, just no to any of them.

The only person that they should be pressing hard for is Panarin. He makes your to 6 significantly better. Other names mentioned not so much.

I'm not giving Hayes anything close to 6 or 7 mil a year. No way do we make an average center higher paid than MacKinnon.

As for Ferland and JT Miller. You best go and look at what else they do to the opponent and how having just one of them can change the way teams plays us. Having Ferland at forward would be a Zadorov like prescence in our top 6.

Ask Washington if they regret giving Tom Wilson 5.2 mil a year over 6 years even if he only scored 40 points this year. Tough, physical guys that can enforce the ice and skate on the top 6 are very, VERY hard to find. Ferland will be in high demand this offseason.

You win games with guys like that.
 
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shadow1

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Panarin is target #1, if not I would settle for Hayes as the 2C. Is there really anyone available that the cost to acquire is worth more than signing Hayes? From a pure center standpoint the only people I could see available would be Johnson and Miller if you consider him a center. Are they better than Hayes? I don't think so.

I would like Jeff Skinner, also.

His cold streak at the end of the season is well documented. But 101 goals/826 shots over the last three years would be a welcome addition to Colorado’s second line.
 
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lonelybadger

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I would like Jeff Skinner, also.

His cold streak at the end of the season is well documented. But 101 goals/826 shots over the last three years would be a welcome addition to Colorado’s second line.

Yeah Skinner would be good too.

I am leaning towards Hayes for 2c, draft Turcotte to eventually take over for 2c. I like Panarin or skinner but I think Hayes is a bigger need than Skinner.
 
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Patagonia

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Yeah Skinner would be good too.

I am leaning towards Hayes for 2c, draft Turcotte to eventually take over for 2c. I like Panarin or skinner but I think Hayes is a bigger need than Skinner.

Agree on Hayes, if he earns less than $6.5M.

I really like Turcotte, just believe Cozens is a tad better. Byram would be a future partner to Makar.

Stay away from Podkolzin.
 
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Foppa2118

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You're nitpicking a tonne to push your narrative.


Barrie let the Forward go in first on purpose to gain better positioning on him and the offensive opportunity happened because the forwards hadn't come all the way back in the defensive zone yet. Barrie also then makes a great subtle play in the corner defensively to get the puck back and find the open Avs forward for what should have been an easy breakout but the Avs forwards cough up the puck before getting it out.


And again on the 3rd one Barrie essentially plays it as a 2 on 1 and takes the pass away from the Flames allowing Grubauer to take the shot. It would have been much worse if Barrie had played it differently and allowed the pass into the slot to happen.



Major nitpicking like I said. Besides the 2nd one where they both got caught puck watching a touch too much. The other two they both handled the play pretty well. If you want to complain about fumbling pucks and forwards making mistakes then fine but like I said it's just nitpicking.

There was no great play involved in letting that centering pass go into the slot or in leaving the zone too early and leaving two Flames forwards behind everyone. It absolutely would not have been worse if Barrie stood in between the two Flames players and swept the puck off Lindholm's stick, instead of backing up and making Grubaer make a big save. These are not nitpicks, and it's not a narrative I'm pushing, despite your projection.
 
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Foppa2118

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Tyson Barrie and Cale Makar have been on the ice together for a grand total of 10 minutes 5v5.

In those 10 minutes they have
- 3 goals. 0 against.
- 16 shot attempts for and 9 against.
- 12 shots on goal for and 6 against.
- 9 scoring chances for and 5 against.
- 6 high danger shot attempts and 2 against.

I don’t care if they’re 6’5 or 5’6. Until this pairing stops working I’m putting them together every shift other than those that begin with a faceoff in our own end. In fact, I’d like to see them start a few in our end. They may even surprise a few people by transitioning the puck from the D zone to the O zone.

For all intents and purposes it's really two goals for. The third, Makar was on the ice for literally 1 second on Mikko's OT winner.

They can definitely contribute good things offensively though, they're good offensive players. My argument is that they can do this without each other. For instance, the other two goals for didn't involve them together.

Barrie's shot that led to Landy's goal is a good example. This is a goal that would have happened without Makar, just like it has for multiple seasons now. MacKinnon grabbed a puck in the neutral zone, gained the O zone, pulled up and dished to Barrie at the point who let a wrister go for Landy to tip.

The other goal was all MacKinnon and Makar for his first goal. This would have happened if he had Nemeth with him. Of course, that's not to say Barrie and Makar can't make great individual plays together to setup goals. I'm sure that will happen at some point.

They could very easily have three goals against too, if not for some luck, and that's just from last game. Big goals against too. If they score on that centering feed, or Backlund takes a better shot after they both exit the zone early, or if there's a dangeous rebound, the Flames go up 1-0. If Gaudreau scores on his breakaway or penalty shot instead of fumbling it, that makes it 1-1. If Grubauer doesn't come up huge at the end of the 2nd period after that dangerous scramble, it's 4-2 going into the third, instead of 4-1.

My question is do you really gain that much offensively if you pair them together that you wouldn't have with them on their own, and is it worth the risk of increasing the chances against? Is it worth reducing the puck mobility on the other pairings to pair the two together? Leaving at least one pair of EJ, Cole, Zadorov, and Nemeth, where they might get in trouble skating or passing the puck out?

Personally I don't think it is. I think they make great plays on their own, give up less dangerous chances with more reliable defensive partners, and with them and G on separate pairs, you can roll three combos with outstanding puck movers. Only pairing them together when you need a big goal, or when you see a good matchup opportunity.
 

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The other goal was all MacKinnon and Makar for his first goal. This would have happened if he had Nemeth with him. Of course, that's not to say Barrie and Makar can't make great individual plays together to setup goals. I'm sure that will happen at some point.

Apologies in advance if I am somehow misunderstanding this. You usually have some pretty cogent arguments, even though I think you paint yourself into a corner at times...but this is just plain erroneous. Nemeth does not have the speed or wherewithal to necessarily tail MacKinnon on that play, let alone call for it, corral the pass, AND fight off a very effective check from Mikael Backlund before shooting it through a screening defender through Smith's five-hole.
 
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Foppa2118

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Apologies in advance if I am somehow misunderstanding this. You usually have some pretty cogent arguments, even though I think you paint yourself into a corner at times...but this is just plain erroneous. Nemeth does not have the speed or wherewithal to necessarily tail MacKinnon on that play, let alone call for it, corral the pass, AND fight off a very effective check from Mikael Backlund before shooting it through a screening defender through Smith's five-hole.

Yes, you're misunderstanding, I didn't mean Nemeth could have scored Makar's goal. I meant Makar could have scored his goal with Nemeth, because Barrie wasn't involved in the play. That's why I said it was all MacKinnon and Makar on that play.
 
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AvsRobin

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Totally agree. It's not the time to wait and see if jost or kerfoot step up. If we don't add some better help, we could have a situation like this year where our goalies hit a slump and the top line can't carry us. I hope we can add Hayes and a winger for the 2nd line. Leave mikko with 9229
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I just look at it from a different perspective. We have a really good thing going on and we we take a step wrong in FA we could handcuff ourselves this "window". Do not forget we splashed out some quite UFA contract last summer.

If we see a player, who we consider a perfect fit and can get that guy in at a price we are comfortable with, of course we should go for it. But I think it's equally important to not treat this upcoming UFA summer with a mind set of "We MUST get those players in" and run the risk of overpaying or going with a plan B or C that we might end up regretting.

My point was that we need to be smart and careful and keep our heads cool. It's not a "now or never" scenario this summer. I'd feel fully comfortable going into next season with the same team too. Eventually we are gonna have to put our foot on the gas, but it doesn't have to be July 1 st, and it doesn't have to be anything is better than nothing.

For example, last summer, I'm sure there were people here who would have liked to sign the deal the Flames signed with James Neal. We needed a second line winger. I don't want us to be the next team to sign a bad UFA contract.
 
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Pierce Hawthorne

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There was no great play involved in letting that centering pass go into the slot or in leaving the zone too early and leaving two Flames forwards behind everyone. It absolutely would not have been worse if Barrie stood in between the two Flames players and swept the puck off Lindholm's stick, instead of backing up and making Grubaer make a big save. These are not nitpicks, and it's not a narrative I'm pushing, despite your projection.


Man, you really didn't play any sort of competitive hockey did you?
 

RoyIsALegend

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Man, you really didn't play any sort of competitive hockey did you?

giphy.gif
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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:laugh:


Probably shouldn't open up that can of worms... But I struggle to see how someone can look at those two plays from earlier and continue spouting the nonsense like he has all day.

Barrie made a fantastic play to win the board battle, and find the forward down low and get the puck to him quickly on the first play. Maybe they left the zone a touch early but it should have been a pretty routine zone exit for the forward given all the puck support he had around him.


And on the second one same thing. If Barrie doesn't play that conservatively and take away the pass completely like he did, it leaves a pretty good chance that the puck finds its way dead center in the slot and on a Flames forwards stick. He took the lesser of two evils and gave Grubauer ever chance to make a save on the guy in tight knowing he didn't have any other options.



Both were very standard plays to make. So either he's pushing his narrative with weak arguments, or he just doesn't really know hockey that well. I'm assuming the first one but who knows...
 

Foppa2118

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Man, you really didn't play any sort of competitive hockey did you?

You don't know anything about me, and you're dead wrong. Not sure why you're always completely incapable of disagreeing with someone, without making some sort of personal shot either.

Your analysis of these plays is wrong on several levels. Firstly, you don't go into the corner with a forward without tying up their stick, or getting in the passing lane to block a centering feed. He also didn't win any board battles like you suggest. He turned to face the boards with the puck, and Makar grabbed the puck and passed to Landy.

You also don't flee the zone when your D partner is doing the same thing, and the forward with the puck (Landy) has no clear outlets. It left two Flames forwards behind everyone, and Backlund wide open to take the shot.

On the third play, every coach and player knows you don't just back up and give a clear lane to the goaltender in this spot. If this were EJ, Zadorov, Cole, or Nemeth, the most likely way they would have played it is just how I said. Stay in your position between the two players to block the passing lane, and then extend your stick to try and sweep the puck away.

These not the worst plays in the world, but are preventable mistakes in a very limited amount of time together, that likely would not have happened with more reliable defensive partners.
 
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Hornstar

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That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I just look at it from a different perspective. We have a really good thing going on and we we take a step wrong in FA we could handcuff ourselves this "window". Do not forget we splashed out some quite UFA contract last summer.

If we see a player, who we consider a perfect fit and can get that guy in at a price we are comfortable with, of course we should go for it. But I think it's equally important to not treat this upcoming UFA summer with a mind set of "We MUST get those players in" and run the risk of overpaying or going with a plan B or C that we might end up regretting.

My point was that we need to be smart and careful and keep our heads cool. It's not a "now or never" scenario this summer. I'd feel fully comfortable going into next season with the same team too. Eventually we are gonna have to put our foot on the gas, but it doesn't have to be July 1 st, and it doesn't have to be anything is better than nothing.

For example, last summer, I'm sure there were people here who would have liked to sign the deal the Flames signed with James Neal. We needed a second line winger. I don't want us to be the next team to sign a bad UFA contract.
I agree with you about jumping into bad contracts but I'm just not that hep on kerfoot playing top line at all. Soda needs to be on the 3rd. If we go into another season with this same offense we could actually step backwards. God forbid Mack goes down with injury for two months. Who do you want driving out offense then? I don't like option B, sitting on our hands and hoping for a hot goalie and no injuries.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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You don't know anything about me, and you're dead wrong. Not sure why you're always completely incapable of disagreeing with someone, without making some sort of personal shot either.

Your analysis of these plays is wrong on several levels. Firstly, you don't go into the corner with a forward without tying up their stick, or getting in the passing lane to block a centering feed. He also didn't win any board battles like you suggest. He turned to face the boards with the puck, and Makar grabbed the puck and passed to Landy.

You also don't flee the zone when your D partner is doing the same thing, and the forward with the puck (Landy) has no clear outlets. It left two Flames forwards behind everyone, and Backlund wide open to take the shot.

On the third play, every coach and player knows you don't just back up and give a clear lane to the goaltender in this spot. If this were EJ, Zadorov, Cole, or Nemeth, the most likely way they would have played it is just how I said. Stay in your position between the two players to block the passing lane, and then extend your stick to try and sweep the puck away.

These not the worst plays in the world, but are preventable mistakes in a very limited amount of time together, that likely would not have happened with more reliable defensive partners.


I can disagree with someone when they have a reasonable opinion. This just isn't one of those times and is very clearly just you pushing your narratives about small Dmen not being able to play together and that Makar is going to make Barrie expendable. It's impossible to take you seriously on the subject quite frankly. Just like whenever you get into any discussions about Jost, you act completely oblivious to his poor skating because you refuse to believe he wont work as a Top 6 Center in the NHL.


You start posting ridiculous arguments like you have here trying to support your narrative when it's just not true at all. I mean if anything I generally give you the doubt that you're a smarter poster then what you try to argue and just chalk it up to those weird little things you refuse to let go(Like the Jost stuff and now the Small Defense stuff)... But I dunno.
 

Foppa2118

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I can disagree with someone when they have a reasonable opinion. This just isn't one of those times and is very clearly just you pushing your narratives about small Dmen not being able to play together and that Makar is going to make Barrie expendable. It's impossible to take you seriously on the subject quite frankly. Just like whenever you get into any discussions about Jost, you act completely oblivious to his poor skating because you refuse to believe he wont work as a Top 6 Center in the NHL.

I don't have a narrative about small defenseman, you're making that up. Remember you and I were on the opposite side of a conversation about Girard. You suggested he was one of the worst defensively on the team because he ranked high in 5 on 5 HDCA. I pointed out that practically every team is ranked in HDCA based on time on ice. Girard led the team in ice time, and played on the top pair all year against the best players in the world. This is why he ranked high in HDCA, not because he's poor defensively.

I'm a big fan of Girard, and think he's very good defensively. I'm a big fan of Makar as well, and think he'll be at least solid defensively in the NHL. Maybe even as soon as next year. I'm a fan of Barrie as well, I've always said that he is elite offensively, and a couple years ago became a really good PP QB as well. I think he deserves a massive raise because of his skillset, even if it doesn't come from the Avs. Which it might with his play down the stretch.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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I don't have a narrative about small defenseman. Remember you and I were on the opposite side of a conversation about Girard. You suggested he was one of the worst defensively on the team because he ranked high in 5 on 5 HDCA. I pointed out that practically every team is ranked in HDCA based on time on ice. Girard led the team in ice time, and played on the top pair all year against the best players in the world. This is why he ranked high in HDCA.

I'm a big fan of Girard, and think he's very good defensively. I'm a big fan Makar as well, and think he'll be at least solid defensively in the NHL. Maybe even as soon as next year. I'm a fan of Barrie as well, I've always said that he is elite offensively, and a couple years ago became a really good PP QB as well. I think he deserves a massive raise because of his skillset, even if it doesn't come from the Avs. Which it might with his play down the stretch.


I'm well aware. We wont rehash that one but that's certainly not how the conversation went aside from the fact that yeah Girard gave up a very high number of HDCA.


You might be a fan of them individually(And lets not kid ourselves you're not a big fan of Barrie by any means), but you have always maintained that two smaller guys cant work well together. Despite Cousin Eddie very convincingly laying out every possible stat you could look for to suggest they have gotten off to a great start in the very brief time spent on a pairing together. You brushed those off completely and instead picked out three very weak "mistakes" to try and suggest they dont work well together.

Either you completely disregard advanced stats entirely(Which is another major issue in and of itself), or you are just trying to push that angle of yours about two small puck moving guys not being able to play together. Since I dont believe it is the first one its gotta be the second one.
 
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