Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VII

[StayAtHomeAv]

No idea what you're talking about. Really. I've tried ,,, but i failed.

And i'm a HE mate - the 3rd Blues Brother if you will

My bad. Must have been another newish name here.

 

[Raucherhusten]

My bad. Must have been another newish name here.

Yeah, no biggy.

 

[Vaslof]

We still have the same 6 core players that we had 4 years ago. That's not rebuilding, maybe retooling. Exchange old guys for young guys and hope for the best.

Toronto got rid of their core players like NeonDion and Kessel for futures - that's a rebuild. And then they got lucky with Austin 3:16 ...

That is exactly right, Toronto got lucky. So did Edmonton. Shouldn't really be counting on getting lucky.

Who are those old guys? Landeskog who's 24? MacKinnnon who's 22? Duchene is already being traded and he's the oldest core forward at 26. Defensemen? Okay, might be wise to move Erik Johnson, though right now it would absolutely cripple us with our lack of defensive depth. Barrie is only worth moving if he's not gonna sign here, otherwise you keep him cause he's an excellent player. I get it, some of you guys want to tank, but I don't think that's a good idea. It just crushes the team, it hurts all of their development and will probably lead to more than just Duchene wanting to leave his team. Tanking is an antiquated way to build a team. Even if there's a franchise-changing player going at #1, you only have a small chance to get that player even if you finish dead last. The positives don't outweigh the negatives. It's better to try and build a winning culture. Get your players some successes and start building on top of that.

 

[Foppberg]

AQ


Well that is what stopped Pittsburgh and Edmonton's rebuilds.

And Washington's, and Chicago's, and LA's.

More often than not that is how rebuilds finally end.

 

[CB Joe]

Since then there have been no signs of a rebuild either. The lack of win now moves is not a sign of a rebuild.

Going back to 2009 what more were you expecting for the Avs to do?

 

[Raucherhusten]

That is exactly right, Toronto got lucky. So did Edmonton. Shouldn't really be counting on getting lucky.

Who are those old guys? Landeskog who's 24? MacKinnnon who's 22? Duchene is already being traded and he's the oldest core forward at 26. Defensemen? Okay, might be wise to move Erik Johnson, though right now it would absolutely cripple us with our lack of defensive depth. Barrie is only worth moving if he's not gonna sign here, otherwise you keep him cause he's an excellent player. I get it, some of you guys want to tank, but I don't think that's a good idea. It just crushes the team, it hurts all of their development and will probably lead to more than just Duchene wanting to leave his team. Tanking is an antiquated way to build a team. Even if there's a franchise-changing player going at #1, you only have a small chance to get that player even if you finish dead last. The positives don't outweigh the negatives. It's better to try and build a winning culture. Get your players some successes and start building on top of that.

ERM ... the only thing that I (and some others) said was that the moves the AVs made in the past two years are NOT the moves of a rebuilding team. They are retooling a little bit by changing the supporting cast but that's about it.

If they really would rebuild some of our existing core would already be gone - for futures only. That's not the case - so we are NOT rebuilding. Over and out.

 

[Freudian]

At least now they stopped trading picks for types like Berra/Stuart/Boedker and signing fading veterans in free agency, so while it's not really rebuilding they're playing younger players and not wasting assets. It's closer to a rebuild than in the past. If they trade Duchene, it will be interesting how future heavy the return will be.

 

[cgf]

That was 3 seasons ago. It's apparent that after they failed to make the playoffs, they gave up on the idea of contending with the vets we had at the time. We all know Roy wanted to keep it going and ended up walking when we didn't get Radulov or make other moves to improve immediately. Since then there's been no signs that they're trying to win-now.

Sakic wanting a proven player in return for Duchene does not mean he wants to contend right now, it just means he prefers a safe approach (a player who has already proven himself) over the risky approach (prospects who might not even make it). There's also no proof that we were offered Two 1sts, Bellows and two 2nds for Duchene. Just because someone somewhere reported it doesn't mean that was ever on the table. If you have inside sources then I apologize for my ignorance, but I have no way to know personally and I tend to take those reports with a grain of salt because the same reports have also said the trade's been close to done for about a hundred times.

The moves Roy wanted would have been moves that made us better in the long run, not the short run...especially given what we know now about Pickard's shortcoming in the starting role. Sakic's failure to make the moves Roy was pushing for actually showed that he was unwilling to commit to a long term plan.

 

[Vaslof]

ERM ... the only thing that I (and some others) said was that the moves the AVs made in the past two years are NOT the moves of a rebuilding team. They are retooling a little bit by changing the supporting cast but that's about it.

If they really would rebuild some of our existing core would already be gone - for futures only. That's not the case - so we are NOT rebuilding. Over and out.

Rebuilds, retool.. Call it what you want. Either you build for the future or you build for the present. Oh and in case you've missed it, there's been a few rumors about trading Duchene, I think it's safe to say that it's not all smoke and they are actually trading him.

 

[Ivan13]

When they actually do one

Well said.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

That is exactly right, Toronto got lucky. So did Edmonton. Shouldn't really be counting on getting lucky.

Who are those old guys? Landeskog who's 24? MacKinnnon who's 22? Duchene is already being traded and he's the oldest core forward at 26. Defensemen? Okay, might be wise to move Erik Johnson, though right now it would absolutely cripple us with our lack of defensive depth. Barrie is only worth moving if he's not gonna sign here, otherwise you keep him cause he's an excellent player. I get it, some of you guys want to tank, but I don't think that's a good idea. It just crushes the team, it hurts all of their development and will probably lead to more than just Duchene wanting to leave his team. Tanking is an antiquated way to build a team. Even if there's a franchise-changing player going at #1, you only have a small chance to get that player even if you finish dead last. The positives don't outweigh the negatives. It's better to try and build a winning culture. Get your players some successes and start building on top of that.

Now you are just arguing what you think should happen.

Again, he is just showing examples of a rebuild. It's not about age. It's about the core. When your core stays the same you are not rebuilding.

Going back to 2009 what more were you expecting for the Avs to do?

Vaslof brought up Roy and him walking and then said there have been no signs of win now since then. So I responded to that.

Why are you asking me about 2009 when we were talking about since Roy left.

And again, you are missing the point. It's not about what I expect or want or anything like that. It's about wether or not we are actually rebuilding. Just because we have not made win now moves does not mean we are rebuilding. Rebuilding involves moving out most of your core.

 

[Vaslof]

The moves Roy wanted would have been moves that made us better in the long run, not the short run...especially given what we know now about Pickard's shortcoming in the starting role. Sakic's failure to make the moves Roy was pushing for actually showed that he was unwilling to commit to a long term plan.

Only move I know of was that he really wanted Radulov. Though in any case, it's pretty clear they've only made rebuilding moves since then. Right now our top 9 consists of three rookies (Kerfoot 23, Compher 22, Jost 19), two young reclamation projects (Andrighetto 24, Yakupov 24), two young core forwards (MacKinnon 22, Rantanen 20), plus Duchene who we're trying to trade. To me, that does not scream "we want to win right now", it screams "we want to build for our future".

EDIT: Forgot Landy, he's 24 fwiw.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

At least now they stopped trading picks for types like Berra/Stuart/Boedker and signing fading veterans in free agency, so while it's not really rebuilding they're playing younger players and not wasting assets. It's closer to a rebuild than in the past. If they trade Duchene, it will be interesting how future heavy the return will be.

Wilson. Not that I'm against the trade. But it's the same concept.

 

[Raucherhusten]

Rebuilds, retool.. Call it what you want. Either you build for the future or you build for the present. Oh and in case you've missed it, there's been a few rumors about trading Duchene, I think it's safe to say that it's not all smoke and they are actually trading him.

If Dutchy gets traded for a future-only package than that's a rebuild move - or "the best we can get" move. But lets face it; the main reason for a trade is that the relationship is pretty much ruined thanks to Sakic.

But the last time i've checked he's still here. So let's wait and see what comes next.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Only move I know of was that he really wanted Radulov. Though in any case, it's pretty clear they've only made rebuilding moves since then. Right now our top 9 consists of three rookies (Kerfoot 23, Compher 22, Jost 19), two young reclamation projects (Andrighetto 24, Yakupov 24), two young core forwards (MacKinnon 22, Rantanen 20), plus Duchene who we're trying to trade. To me, that does not scream "we want to win right now", it screams "we want to build for our future".

EDIT: Forgot Landy, he's 24 fwiw.

That's just building. Look up what "re" means as a prefix.

 

[Balthazar]

Can anyone show me a successful rebuilt in the last 20 years that didn't require a Matthews/McDavid/Crosby/Kane please?

 

[Foppberg]

Can anyone show me a successful rebuilt in the last 20 years that didn't require a Matthews/McDavid/Crosby/Kane please?

Only ones that come close I'd say are Boston, Calgary, Columbus or St.Louis.

 

[cgf]

Only move I know of was that he really wanted Radulov. Though in any case, it's pretty clear they've only made rebuilding moves since then. Right now our top 9 consists of three rookies (Kerfoot 23, Compher 22, Jost 19), two young reclamation projects (Andrighetto 24, Yakupov 24), two young core forwards (MacKinnon 22, Rantanen 20), plus Duchene who we're trying to trade. To me, that does not scream "we want to win right now", it screams "we want to build for our future".

EDIT: Forgot Landy, he's 24 fwiw.

The Duchene for Chabot+Zibanejad trade was supposed to be one of two moves that preceded signing Rads, as was drafting one of the dmen at our pick instead of Jost. The other move would've also meant a step back in the short run to load us up in the longrun. Roy wanted to finally address our hole on the left side of the D for good, without handicapping our forward core, but Sakic failed to pull the trigger.

They haven't made any major moves, just shuffled around some chairs, and just like the lack of "win now" moves isn't proof a rebuild, neither does them trying out some younger supporting pieces around the same core. That's not rebuilding when someone like Duchene needs to be traded and Barrie should be on the move soon thereafter, not when we're looking at a draft that is just stacked in what we need most...high end dmen & dynamic wingers.

 

[Vaslof]

If Dutchy gets traded for a future-only package than that's a rebuild move - or "the best we can get" move. But lets face it; the main reason for a trade is that the relationship is pretty much ruined thanks to Sakic.

But the last time i've checked he's still here. So let's wait and see what comes next.

What if he's traded for a young defender? I think that should count too.

I agree with the reason for him being on the block though. Originally he was there because we were lacking on defense. I think Sakic would have wanted to keep Duchene when he couldn't get the defender he wanted in return. But that's obviously not an option anymore.

That's just building. Look up what "re" means as a prefix.

5 of those guys weren't here before. You don't need to literally change every single player, especially if those players who stay are still young. Unless we're arguing about semantics of course, in that case I'll just bow out of the discussion.

 

[agentblack]

For me its not a true start of a rebuild unless you start from the top. I mean what does it matter if we trade everyone and Sakic and his buddies are still here. Still the same philosophy.
GM, Coach, staff, pro and amateur scouting , AHL coach..all have to be redone ..for a rebuild to start imo
Once you have a new group with a vision and plan in place then you mold the roster, draft, trade to fit that plan. And hope for the best.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

What if he's traded for a young defender? I think that should count too.

I agree with the reason for him being on the block though. Originally he was there because we were lacking on defense. I think Sakic would have wanted to keep Duchene when he couldn't get the defender he wanted in return. But that's obviously not an option anymore.



5 of those guys weren't here before. You don't need to literally change every single player, especially if those players who stay are still young. Unless we're arguing about semantics of course, in that case I'll just bow out of the discussion.

You keep ignoring the important part. The core is the same. And no, it's not every single player, but the core has hardly changed since Roy took over as coach.

It's been a semantics argument the entire time.

 

[CB Joe]

They haven't made any major moves, just shuffled around some chairs, and just like the lack of "win now" moves isn't proof a rebuild, neither does them trying out some younger supporting pieces around the same core. That's not rebuilding when someone like Duchene needs to be traded and Barrie should be on the move soon thereafter, not when we're looking at a draft that is just stacked in what we need most...high end dmen & dynamic wingers.

Endlessly trading away young talent for picks isn't rebuilding either. To rebuild you actually have to build something. You're talking about trading away a young forward and a young defenseman who are playing at a ppg pace for a chance at drafting a forward and defenseman that hopefully go on to do the same. But I guess Duchene has to go any way since that bridge has been burnt to a crisp.

 

[Vaslof]

The Duchene for Chabot+Zibanejad trade was supposed to be one of two moves that preceded signing Rads, as was drafting one of the dmen at our pick instead of Jost. The other move would've also meant a step back in the short run to load us up in the longrun. Roy wanted to finally address our hole on the left side of the D for good, without handicapping our forward core, but Sakic failed to pull the trigger.

They haven't made any major moves, just shuffled around some chairs, and just like the lack of "win now" moves isn't proof a rebuild, neither does them trying out some younger supporting pieces around the same core. That's not rebuilding when someone like Duchene needs to be traded and Barrie should be on the move soon thereafter, not when we're looking at a draft that is just stacked in what we need most...high end dmen & dynamic wingers.

Would love to have Chabot and Zibanejad right now, but I'm a little skeptical when looking at old offers in hindsight.. There have been so many rumored offers on Duchene in the recent year as well, few years from now some of them will look like absolute steals and others will look really bad. Good on Roy for wanting to get things done though. I can definitely see Sakic being the cautious one. A trait that can sometimes be useful to have, but not in the case here.

I'm not against the idea of trading more than just Duchene. Landeskog in particular I would love to see exchanged for futures, as I've never been a big fan of his and thought he was the one who should be traded out of Duchene or Landeskog if one had to go. But guys like MacKinnon and Rantanen are players who absolutely aren't the problem and we'd have a hard time getting a better player back in return. They're also more likely to trend upwards than downwards. So realistically it should just be Duchene and Landy who'd be moved, and according to all the rumors last year those were the two that our GM was trying to move.

As for defense, very hard to say right now. Depends on some things: The Duchene return, whether the Makar gamble pays off, and where and who we draft next. I have a feeling that EJ will probably be an Av till the end of his career whether we like it or not. Barrie should get us a good return though. He was being shopped around before, and while they might not want to trade their only offensive defenseman right now, I think they will before his current contract is over. Those two are my predictions btw, not my wishes.

 

[Raucherhusten]

Endlessly trading away young talent for picks isn't rebuilding either. To rebuild you actually have to build something. You're talking about trading away a young forward and a young defenseman who are playing at a ppg pace for a chance at drafting a forward and defenseman that hopefully go on to do the same. But I guess Duchene has to go any way since that bridge has been burnt to a crisp.

I think you need to ask yourself one question: Do you really think that the core that we have is good enough to make us a contender or not? If you answer this question with a clearcut YES you must be Joe Sakic. If your answer is NO than you feel like 90% of us and that changes need to be made. What changes exactly is a discussion for another day ...

 

[cgf]

Would love to have Chabot and Zibanejad right now, but I'm a little skeptical when looking at old offers in hindsight.. There have been so many rumored offers on Duchene in the recent year as well, few years from now some of them will look like absolute steals and others will look really bad. Good on Roy for wanting to get things done though. I can definitely see Sakic being the cautious one. A trait that can sometimes be useful to have, but not in the case here.

I'm not against the idea of trading more than just Duchene. Landeskog in particular I would love to see exchanged for futures, as I've never been a big fan of his and thought he was the one who should be traded out of Duchene or Landeskog if one had to go. But guys like MacKinnon and Rantanen are players who absolutely aren't the problem and we'd have a hard time getting a better player back in return. They're also more likely to trend upwards than downwards. So realistically it should just be Duchene and Landy who'd be moved, and according to all the rumors last year those were the two that our GM was trying to move.

As for defense, very hard to say right now. Depends on some things: The Duchene return, whether the Makar gamble pays off, and where and who we draft next. I have a feeling that EJ will probably be an Av till the end of his career whether we like it or not. Barrie should get us a good return though. He was being shopped around before, and while they might not want to trade their only offensive defenseman right now, I think they will before his current contract is over. Those two are my predictions btw, not my wishes.

I get that skepticism with most rumors but I really trust that Ottawa offer and the role it played in the collapse of the Roykic relationship. So to me looking back at that and the other core player trade is different than rumors we've heard from NY or Columbus. And though it was infuriating at the time, to the point that it played a big part in Roy's departure, it has become an absolutely scathing indictment of Sakic's willingness to commit to a long term rebuild that actually addressed this team's weaknesses. We stumbled into a youth movement, we didn't commit to & execute a rebuild.