Speculation: Avs macro issues thread

[InjuredChoker]

At what point did Babcock have a defense comparable to the Avs?

When he got there his D core consisted of Lidstrom, Schneider, Chelios, Lilja, and a young Kronwall and Fischer.

That crushes the Avs D core. He always had either Lidstrom or Kronwall eating up minutes for him.

post-lidström. probably was even slightly worse.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Lemaire is one of the best coaches in the history of the league. He's turned teams full of holes into consistent playoff teams. He changed the way the league played hockey in the 1990s.

In 2011, after John MacLean had the Devils start the season 9-22-2 he did Lamoriello a favor and took over the team despite having retired. The team had a 29-17-3 record during his 49 games with the team.

Yeah, Lemaire couldn't possible teach Avs a thing or two about structure. Hell, structure doesn't even exist. It's all on the players.

But his half season with the leafs somehow proves otherwise. Never mind he's not even the coach.

 

[Foppa2118]

You're using Lemair's one season with the leafs as evidence to get your point across and Im telling he's been covering defensive deficiencies for decades.

The supporting cast part was due to the fact that you and some others defend the likes of Mcloed/Holden as if they are solid NHL players but if they are not part of the problem and Roy isn't to blame at all, where does the problem lie?

Firstly I think Holden and the fact he plays so many minutes because the Avs have a crap D core might be THE biggest problem with the team.

Secondly McLeod as a 4th liner, who plays just fine in his role as a 4th liner I might add, is so far down the list of problems this team has it's not even funny. In fact it might be dead last on that list because there's very few players that have consistently performed their role as well as he has.

Third, I'm still failing to see how Lemaire can fix this teams crappy D core, when in his ONE SEASON he can't get the Leafs out of 30th place, but Roy is a "system" neophyte because he hasn't managed to keep his own crap D core from being a playoff bubble team for the last TWO YEARS.

You guys think coaching and structure can work miracles. It can't. It hasn't for Toronto, and it won't for the Avs. Not when there are holes that big on your roster. Coaching and structure can cover up for small holes, but not gaping grand canyon sized holes on the blueline.

 

[Foppa2118]

Lemaire is one of the best coaches in the history of the league. He's turned teams full of holes into consistent playoff teams. He changed the way the league played hockey in the 1990s.

In 2011, after John MacLean had the Devils start the season 9-22-2 he did Lamoriello a favor and took over the team despite having retired. The team had a 29-17-3 record during his 49 games with the team.

Yeah, Lemaire couldn't possible teach Avs a thing or two about structure. Hell, structure doesn't even exist. It's all on the players.

I think you should exaggerate this further and say "oh but sure Lemaire isn't even a hockey coach. He doesn't even know what hockey is. He isn't even a human being. He doesn't even exist."

 

[dahrougem2]

Firstly I think Holden and the fact he plays so many minutes because the Avs have a crap D core might be THE biggest problem with the team.

Secondly McLeod as a 4th liner, who plays just fine in his role as a 4th liner I might add, is so far down the list of problems this team has it's not even funny. In fact it might be dead last on that list because there's very few players that have consistently performed their role as well as he has.

Third, I'm still failing to see how Lemaire can fix this teams crappy D core, when in his ONE SEASON he can't get the Leafs out of 30th place, but Roy is a "system" neophyte because he hasn't managed to keep his own crap D core from being a playoff bubble team for the last TWO YEARS.

You guys think coaching and structure can work miracles. It can't. It hasn't for Toronto, and it won't for the Avs. Not when there are holes that big on your roster. Coaching and structure can cover up for small holes, but not gaping grand canyon sized holes on the blueline.

You're greatly underestimating the power of a good coach with a good structured defensive system. The Leafs are where they are because that's where the higher-ups want them to be. But the Leafs defensive structure is better than the Avs' there's no question about that.

 

[CB Joe]

Clearly the biggest hole on the team is the bottom pair defender playing the #4 defenseman. I'm sure fixing that well turn this team around...

 

[Foppa2118]

You're greatly underestimating the power of a good coach with a good structured defensive system. The Leafs are where they are because that's where the higher-ups want them to be. But the Leafs defensive structure is better than the Avs' there's no question about that.

Coaching and a great structure can make you a better team. Even with crap players. They can't magically turn you into a good team.

Lemaire's one of the greatest coaches and teachers ever. He would help this team. He wouldn't magically fix this teams problems, and they shouldn't have to rely on the coaching of one of the greatest coaches ever to be a good team, the same way they shouldn't have to rely on having Ray Bourque and Adam Foote on their blueline either.

 

[Foppa2118]

Clearly the biggest hole on the team is the bottom pair defender playing the #4 defenseman. I'm sure fixing that well turn this team around...

Clearly you have a hard time differentiating words like biggest and only.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

In 2003 he took the Wild WCF with the likes of Mitchell,Kuba and Zuzin(sp)

In 2011 as Fred mention, he took a team down in the dumps and made them look like a legit NHL team. His star players were White and Tallinder.

Babcock in 03 took the ducks to the finals, with Havelid,carney and Rusty as defenders.

If you don't think coaches/systems can actually hide flaws in teams, look at the devils roster a year after the Mclaren catastrophe, that made it all the way to the final. It had superstars like Fayne and Salvador. Hell the latter was captain.

 

[dahrougem2]

Coaching and a great structure can make you a better team. Even with crap players. They can't magically turn you into a good team.

Lemaire's one of the greatest coaches and teachers ever. He would help this team. He wouldn't magically fix this teams problems, and they shouldn't have to rely on the coaching of one of the greatest coaches ever to be a good team, the same way they shouldn't have to rely on having Ray Bourque and Adam Foote on their blueline either.

Coaching and a great structure can take a mediocre/average team and turn it into a good team. Not that I don't think Roy isn't a good coach, but I do believe he struggles with X's and O's defensively.

 

[Foppa2118]

Coaching and a great structure can take a mediocre/average team and turn it into a good team. Not that I don't think Roy isn't a good coach, but I do believe he struggles with X's and O's defensively.

I agree with the bolded. It can only be a short term solution though. That's why you never see those kind of teams duplicate their success from their lightning in a bottle season.

In 2003 he took the Wild WCF with the likes of Mitchell,Kuba and Zuzin(sp)

In 2011 as Fred mention, he took a team down in the dumps and made them look like a legit NHL team. His star players were White and Tallinder.

Babcock in 03 took the ducks to the finals, with Havelid,carney and Rusty as defenders.

If you don't think coaches/systems can actually hide flaws in teams, look at the devils roster a year after the Mclaren catastrophe, that made it all the way to the final. It had superstars like Fayne and Salvador. Hell the latter was captain.

All you're doing is proving Lemaire is a good defensive coach, and can turn a non flashy, built to be defensive team into one that can catch lightning in a bottle but never turn into a consistently good or top team. Not until they fix the problems they're trying to cover up.

Same with Babcock. This isn't about whether Lemaire and Babcock are good coaches or better than Roy. Of course they are. You don't see me talking about Shea Weber or Drew Doughty do you?

Would Lemaire or Babcock help make Bodnarchuk, Redmond, Holden, Wilson, Guenin, and an aging Hejda and Stuart better? Absolutely. Would that fix the team's problems, or are those defenseman comparable to what Lemaire and Babcock had to work with? Absolutely not.

 

[CB Joe]

Clearly you have a hard time differentiating words like biggest and only.

The irony in this post. Where did I say only.

 

[Foppa2118]

The irony in this post. Where did I say only.

Here.

Clearly the biggest hole on the team is the bottom pair defender playing the #4 defenseman. I'm sure fixing that well turn this team around...

 

[InjuredChoker]

In 2003 he took the Wild WCF with the likes of Mitchell,Kuba and Zuzin(sp)

In 2011 as Fred mention, he took a team down in the dumps and made them look like a legit NHL team. His star players were White and Tallinder.

Babcock in 03 took the ducks to the finals, with Havelid,carney and Rusty as defenders.

If you don't think coaches/systems can actually hide flaws in teams, look at the devils roster a year after the Mclaren catastrophe, that made it all the way to the final. It had superstars like Fayne and Salvador. Hell the latter was captain.

i think you're downplaying the devils D of 11 and 12. andy greene is a very solid player and for the cup run they got a nice addition in zidlicky. terrible defender but solid offensive defenseman at the time.

not that it still was a D that one would expect to make the finals, it wasn't.

 

[CB Joe]

Here.

Are you serious? I have fathom how you got that from what you quoted.

If the Avs manage to fix their 'biggest problem' I think a jump in the standings is a reasonable expectation.

I don't think Holden playing in the top 4 is the reason the Avs have terrible defensive coverage(even when Holden is not the ice), have a terrible break out, can't cycle the puck, are almost constantly out shot, struggle to maintain possession of the puck, and don't have a high compete level.

I know Holden is the whipping boy but come on...

 

[Foppa2118]

Are you serious? I have fathom how you got that from what you quoted.

If the Avs manage to fix their 'biggest problem' I think a jump in the standings is a reasonable expectation.

I don't think Holden playing in the top 4 is the reason the Avs have terrible defensive coverage(even when Holden is not the ice), have a terrible break out, can't cycle the puck, are almost constantly out shot, struggle to maintain possession of the puck, and don't have a high compete level.

I know Holden is the whipping boy but come on...

You literally just did it again.

 

[AvalancheFan19]

You're greatly underestimating the power of a good coach with a good structured defensive system. The Leafs are where they are because that's where the higher-ups want them to be. But the Leafs defensive structure is better than the Avs' there's no question about that.

This and so much this. I want our team to play the right way. No, we don't have certain players that have to play a particular style. We have professional hockey players who have to play like professionals. That's what the Babcocks and Quennevilles preach. I agree this is a deeply rooted problem in the organization but some stuff that Roy says does bother me.

 

[agentblack]

I do wonder at times if Joe and Patrick had their choice of a dream team of players it would still be built a certain way. Kind of similar to the ones that worked for them while they were playing. Fantastic fwds, a subpar defensive scheme, and an all world goalie.

Problem is i dont think that can work in this NHL anymore. Hell it barely worked for them we they played.

 

[CB Joe]

You literally just did it again.

You literally just quoted me saying I don't think Holden is the biggest problem. How you got 'Holden is the only problem with this team' out of that I just can't comprehend.

 

[Foppa2118]

You literally just quoted me saying I don't think Holden is the biggest problem. How you got 'Holden is the only problem with this team' out of that I just can't comprehend.

You're trying to argue that the sky doesn't look blue right now. It's ridiculously obvious what you were trying to imply by sarcastically saying fixing Holden would turn this team around. Why even say that? Who thinks Holden is the cause of the entire team's problems, and fixing him would fix all the problems you listed? Literally no one thinks that. Why even bring it up?

 

[dahrougem2]

I agree with the bolded. It can only be a short term solution though. That's why you never see those kind of teams duplicate their success from their lightning in a bottle season.

Not entirely true. It can be a short-term fix for a poor roster. This roster, while not an amazing one, isn't a poor one either. There are pieces up front and pieces on the back-end. It's been 2.5 years under Roy and the players look as lost as ever defensively. Maybe Farrish/Army have things to do with that as well, who knows. The players also share their part of the blame. Most players on this team are, as I said, hockey dummies. EJ, Duchene, MacKinnon, Holden, they're hockey dummies with great physical abilities (Holden excluded from that). Not that they're brain dead players, but they don't really seem to take initiative and understand how to think the game at a higher level. A good coach knows how to mask these problems with good defensive structure and systems, and how to work with these players.

Roy is a phenomenal players' coach, but when it comes X's and O's he struggles.

 

[CB Joe]

You're trying to argue that the sky doesn't look blue right now. It's ridiculously obvious what you were trying to imply by sarcastically saying fixing Holden would turn this team around. Why even say that? Who thinks Holden is the cause of the entire team's problems, and fixing him would fix all the problems you listed? Literally no one thinks that.

You just finished saying you thought Holden was the biggest problem. To which I responded why I thought he wasn't the biggest problem as he doesn't fix many of the main issues the Avs have.

How you got to me implying that you think "Holden is the cause of the entire team's problems, and fixing him would fix all the problems you listed?" I just don't understand. You're trying to put a twist on my words that isn' there.

I'm going to try and say this clearly. I don't think you're saying that Holden is the only problem with the Avs. I'm saying he's not even close to the biggest problem. Those two things are not the same.

 

[Foppa2118]

Not entirely true. It can be a short-term fix for a poor roster. This roster, while not an amazing one, isn't a poor one either. There are pieces up front and pieces on the back-end. It's been 2.5 years under Roy and the players look as lost as ever defensively. Maybe Farrish/Army have things to do with that as well, who knows. The players also share their part of the blame. Most players on this team are, as I said, hockey dummies. EJ, Duchene, MacKinnon, Holden, they're hockey dummies with great physical abilities (Holden excluded from that). Not that they're brain dead players, but they don't really seem to take initiative and understand how to think the game at a higher level. A good coach knows how to mask these problems with good defensive structure and systems, and how to work with these players.

Roy is a phenomenal players' coach, but when it comes X's and O's he struggles.

The D core is too poor IMO, that's what I'm referring to. You can partially cover up for a huge hole and problem on you roster, but you can't fix it enough to be competitive long term. It needs to be fixed.

It's like a car that has been run into the ground and has glaring problem with it. A good mechanic can get it running and cover up a lot of it's problems, but it's never gonna compete long term with the other well tuned machines on the road.

I honestly think all this talk about systems, and structure, and x's and o's is just a simple answer for some. It just gets said over and over and over again, but how on earth would anyone here who's saying that know what kind of x's and o's he's drawing up? It's just being said without any knowledge.

Then we see them lose games after game off avoidable mistakes by defenseman. Nothing to do with x's and o's, but poor plays and mistakes.

 

[Foppa2118]

You just finished saying you thought Holden was the biggest problem. To which I responded why I thought he wasn't the biggest problem as he doesn't fix many of the main issues the Avs have.

How you got to me implying that you think "Holden is the cause of the entire team's problems, and fixing him would fix all the problems you listed?" I just don't understand. You're trying to put a twist on my words that isn' there.

I'm going to try and say this clearly. I don't think you're saying that Holden is the only problem with the Avs. I'm saying he's not even close to the biggest problem. Those two things are not the same.

That's not what you were saying then, that's what you're saying now, but that's fine. I don't agree, but to each their own. We do agree there are other problems that need fixing.

 

[CB Joe]

That's not what you were saying then, that's what you're saying now, but that's fine. I don't agree, but to each their own. We do agree there are other problems that need fixing.

That's exactly what I was saying and exactly what you quoted. But yes we agree there are other problems, we just disagree on what the main problem is.