Speculation: Avs macro issues thread

JoemAvs

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All that chart shows is that the Avs are not strong in one particular area of the game, according to that metric. It doesn't say the root cause of that problem, and it doesn't say how important that issue is to team success, and it certainly gives no assurances of scientific accuracy to how much worse the Avs are than other teams, or relevance to the discussion at hand, when the two best and two worst teams in the league are right next to each other, smack dab in the middle of the chart. It loses massive amounts of credibility and importance due to that fact.

Okay I have lost interest.
You clearly have no interest in advanced stats and I won't be able to change that.

Those are just numbers. Statistics. Put into a graph. It is on us to interpret them. You can explain why Edmonton, Toronto, Chicago and Washington are next to each other.
Statistics are never wrong (unless someone tampered with the numbers). They are never right as well.
Just the interpretation of them is one of the two.

That graph is not a substitute for common sense or actively watching games and evaluating teams. It is just a tool to help you explain what you can see.

And it just backs up what everyone can see. The Avs are terrible at possession.
That is a huge problem Roy has done nothing to adress over the last 3 years.

Teams way less talented are better at it than the Avs. They are underperforming hard in that regard.

That IMO is a huge problem. I also believe that there is a (not -perfect of course. a few other factors come also into play. But being good at it certainly helps.) correlation between being a good possession team and being a good team in general.

You obviously don't.


Let us just agree to disagree.
 

Foppa2118

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No that's a very telling graph that shows you aren't strong in many areas of the game. It can mean that you aren't strong at holding the puck, you aren't strong at passing it to generate shots, you aren't strong at getting it out of your zone, you aren't strong at finding shooting lanes, you aren't strong at generating and then shooting at rebounds, you aren't strong at freezing the puck when it's in your zone under pressure, etc....maybe not all those problems but multiple ones.

If you mean to say that ignore that chart and use the eye test then the eye test to me personally shows that the 30th placed Leafs are far more organized in their own zone and at getting the puck out than us. They just don't have offensive talent. Plus, charts show trends, all the charts show us on the negative side so yeah one by itself isn't strong but if they're all suggesting that you're **** then you're probably ****.

It CAN mean a lot of things. It CAN mean that Patrick Roy is a robot sent from krypton to teach the Avs how to play bad hockey. You can extrapolate whatever you want out of that stat. That's why it's so dangerous to put much importance into it alone, or draw a conclusion from it.

"You aren't strong at getting it out of your zone." Well that's primarily an issue with the defenseman, likely not having good mobility or puck skills. "It can mean that you aren't strong at holding the puck." Well that's primarily an issue with the forwards down low in the offensive zone. "You aren't strong at freezing the puck when it's in your zone under pressure." Well that's an issue with your goalie and rebounds.

Those are three completely different problems, each with other problems that could influence them. It's nice to look at it on a chart, but what the hell do you do with that information?

You're gonna needs awfully more intricate stats than that to gain any relevant info from. That's why teams use their own incredibly complicated stats that take a whole team focusing on and tracking different metrics, not corsi, or shots against/for, and these other media stats.

Okay I have lost interest.
You clearly have no interest in advanced stats and I won't be able to change that.

Those are just numbers. Statistics. Put into a graph. It is on us to interpret them. You can explain why Edmonton, Toronto, Chicago and Washington are next to each other.
Statistics are never wrong (unless someone tampered with the numbers). They are never right as well.
Just the interpretation of them is one of the two.

That graph is not a substitute for common sense or actively watching games and evaluating teams. It is just a tool to help you explain what you can see.

And it just backs up what everyone can see. The Avs are terrible at possession.
That is a huge problem Roy has done nothing to adress over the last 3 years.

Teams way less talented are better at it than the Avs. They are underperforming hard in that regard.

That IMO is a huge problem. I also believe that there is a (not -perfect of course. a few other factors come also into play. But being good at it certainly helps.) correlation between being a good possession team and being a good team in general.

You obviously don't.


Let us just agree to disagree.

Who even cares about the stat, that's my point. It could be 100% bang on it doesn't make a difference.

What's causing the team's problems? They could add one or two solid two way defenseman, and call up Rantanen next year, and be instantly in the upper half of your chart. Why? Because they're a better team, they play smart hockey, and that leads to having better numbers in your graphs.

Guess what? Roy could also still be a poor coach at the same time. The two aren't necessarily tied to each other.
 
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5280

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Do people have individual corsi's? If they do, It would be interesting to me to see someone like FB or Soda's relative to their career. Tanguay's? Iggy's ? Has it gone down or up for those players since joining the Avs? And Statsny ? or ROR ? Since leaving.

Sorry for being a Corsi moron, I just don't really get the formula. But I don't need it to tell me the Avs are a poor possession team or that we give up way too many shots and let teams spend too much time in our zone. I can definitely see that with my own eyes.

Is it necessarily systemic though? is the question I have.
 
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JoemAvs

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It CAN mean a lot of things. It CAN mean that Patrick Roy is a robot sent from krypton to teach the Avs how to play bad hockey. You can extrapolate whatever you want out of that stat. That's why it's so dangerous to put much importance into it alone, or draw a conclusion from it.



Who even cares about the stat, that's my point. It could be 100% bang on it doesn't make a difference.

What's causing the team's problems? They could add one or two solid two way defenseman, and call up Rantanen next year, and be instantly in the upper half of your chart. Why? Because they're a better team, they play smart hockey, and that leads to having better numbers in your graphs.

Guess what? Roy could also still be a poor coach at the same time. The two aren't necessarily tied to each other.


Yeah but what about Edmonton and Toronto....:sarcasm:


I care about it. Because it expresses nicely what I think is one of our main problems right now. An even bigger one than having Holden or Tanguay play in your top4/top6.

The Avs are massively underperforming when it comes to possession in comparison to their peers.

They do way worse than they should be (even with having Holden/Tangs playing roles they should not) .
That is on Roy who openly admits that he does not really care for possession which IMO is a huge problem.

You keep blaming individual mistakes and brainfarts in our own zone as the reason for our lack of success.

You dismiss it as the players fault and not the coaches fault.

I disagree with that. Individually, yes each and every mistake is made by a player. But in general it is the coaches job to put his players into favorable positions and help minimize those individual lapses.

That can be done by having a solid system and structure that makes decisions easier for the players and does not require them to think for that split second too long because they can just fall back on what they have learned.
The Avs are sorely lacking in that department IMO.

It also helps to explain why those possession numbers are bad. First of all the coach clearly does not give a damn about it but the lack of structure/system also leads to way more bad decisions or atleast does not really help in controlling the play.

Good possession numbers can also help minimize those crucial mistakes. That means that the puck is less often in your own zone so there are not as many difficult decisions to be made by the players and therefore as a result less costly, individual mistakes.


I am going to bed now.
This is nothing personal. I just really think that this section is dismissing those rather alarming stats way too easily in general.

Lets just hope that nobody does anything stupid in the offseason trade wise and that Zads, Rantanen and all those other guys somehow can turn it (possession numbers as well as finally taking the next step as a team) around (maybe together with Roy) next season if they fail to make it this year.
 

AMDZen

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According to that chart, Chicago and Edmonton are basically the same team. Doesn't lend itself a lot to the credibility of what it's supposed to say.
 

Foppa2118

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Yeah but what about Edmonton and Toronto....:sarcasm:

I didn't say they'd become more relevant or accurate, I said they could end up with better numbers on your graph.

The underlying problem being the personnel, not the coach. And potentially right next to both the best and worst teams in the league, causing the same questions if you're just looking at the numbers, not looking for problems.
 

AMDZen

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As a third party looking over the conversation I will just interject my two cents.

I believe both of you are correct on many of your points. Breaking it down to the biggest points addressed in this discussion (argument?) are really two fold. First, many people place way too much emphasis on advanced stats, however many people (Avs fans in no small part) don't place enough emphasis on them. They are important, possession is important. It's a problem too for this team, but it also might not be the fix. No way to really no that and yet people act like we fix that and we fix the team. Which brings me to part two.

Coaching versus roster. A lot of the proponents of advanced stats use that as an argument against Roy. An indictment even. I have heard him reference advanced stats as a whole as not being the most important thing like so many say, but I have not heard him ever say flat out that possession is not important or thrown it out like that. If I am wrong by all means post the links where he has. I think Patrick is getting lots of hate on that front because of a couple comments he made in probably his second year about advanced stats because of a couple people beating it to death in interviews with him. He looked, in my mind in watching those interviews, that he was more tired of hearing about it then he was actually sure that they didn't matter.

I am starting to think personally tha Roy may be part of the problem and it may be the roster even more so, I can't say for sure and it seems that people believe only one will be the solution when it's more than likely both of them as part of it. Same thing with advanced stats, it's not be all end all and many argue it like it is, even if that isn't necessarily the case, many act like it is. The problems with this team are in the middle of your two perspectives, as is most likely the solution. You two really need to come at it from each others side with open minds and I think u would agree.
 

shadow1

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Colorado's problems start and end with the fact that the team isn't talented enough to consistently succeed in the current coaching system.

Aside from Tyson Barrie and probably Chris Bigras, the Avs defense cannot pass. In Roy's system, the forwards do not support down low.

The only way the club will climb out of mediocrity is to either revamp the defense or replace Patrick Roy.
 

dahrougem2

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Colorado's problems start and end with the fact that the team isn't talented enough to consistently succeed in the current coaching system.

Aside from Tyson Barrie and probably Chris Bigras, the Avs defense cannot pass. In Roy's system, the forwards do not support down low.

The only way the club will climb out of mediocrity is to either revamp the defense or replace Patrick Roy.

And this is something that is so easily fixable by Roy on his own. There's no excuse for continuously keeping the forwards so ridiculously far away in the neutral zone. No wonder EJ loves his stretch passes.
 

Balthazar

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It's easy to see if we're going in the right direction...

2013 AVS vs. 2015 AVS.

Who wins?
 

Balthazar

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Colorado's problems start and end with the fact that the team isn't talented enough to consistently succeed in the current coaching system.

Roy is too hard headed to realize that his system wasn't sustainable from the start and that's why the team will never become a real contender.

Proof? Lowest possession in the league and then traded to get the guy with the lowest possession stats in Arizona. I'm not saying getting Boedker is a bad move, I'm saying that he doesn't want to change. He wants to win by playing like this.
 

5280

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Roy is too hard headed to realize that his system wasn't sustainable from the start and that's why the team will never become a real contender.

Proof? Lowest possession in the league and then traded to get the guy with the lowest possession stats in Arizona. I'm not saying getting Boedker is a bad move, I'm saying that he doesn't want to change. He wants to win by playing like this.

He's shown that he doesn't like to change and is slow to change, but inevitably he does change.
 

5280

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You know what makes me mad in reading all of this....It's not that we suck at Corsi, or that Corsi is wrong, or even that people are saying that we suck corsi.....It's that people say just because I still support Roy as a coach that it is because I must be enamored with his holy aura and that I can't differentiate between him as a player and him all as a coach and that I am giving him all this leaway as a coach just because I liked him as a player. C'mon.
 
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McMetal

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Possession stats like Corsi are a game of averages. And like most attempts to average things, they're right a statistically significant amount of times, but also wrong quite a lot. If arbitrary stats like shot attempts were how we actually decided who gets more points at the end of the game, it would be easier for me to put a lot of stock in advanced stats. What matters is pucks put in the net. Averages like Corsi are an attempt to try and make sense of large amounts of data, but they're pretty bad at making individual predictions. They can help illuminate patterns on a large scale, but they don't have a lot of predictive power when it comes to games, because hockey games can sometimes be won on things like lucky bounces, off games by goaltenders, locker room mentality, or just superstars on a tear that day.

That graph looks scary, but it would scare me a lot more if the Avs were actually the worst team in the league in terms of points, and that is very objectively not the case, you don't need fancy stats to tell you that. We could be taking more low-percentage shots in order to pad those numbers, but would that really achieve the actual goal of putting more pucks in the net than the other team? The eye test says something else. If we had lost the game every time we lost Corsi this season, we would literally have less than ten wins.

Roy's system is anti-Corsi as a stat, but when you look at how Corsi is actually notated in a lot of places as "Chances For", then maybe he DOES respect that aspect of it. His system seems to be to limit the team to lots of low-quality shots. Is a shot from the half boards that gets blocked REALLY a "chance for"? Corsi says so, and that's where my major beef with it is and why I get where Roy is coming from on this. What interests me is the admittedly subjective stat of "Scoring Chances", which doesn't really get recorded on a large scale. Those are the high-danger chances where the individual players matter. Did the shooter miss? Did the goalie make a huge save? That's where hockey games are won and lost, IMO. Does your D give up too many of those big chances? That's what sunk us in Minnesota last week. Do your shooters miss critical chances? That's why we lost the last game in Vancouver.

I think that's where Roy's philosophy lies. Generate as many of those big chances off the rush as you can, and limit the other team to bad ones as much as possible. It relies on your forwards to not choke, and your defenders to keep the puck to the outside as much as possible in the D zone, something that the Avs are actually pretty good at. What sinks us is that our weak defenders like Holden, Guenin, and Bodnarchuck don't make good decisions in one-on-one battles defending those high-percentage chances, leaving the goalie out to dry. How many of those massive ****ups this year have led to brutal goals against? Which is why I think once our defensive corps matures, loses the dead weight and maybe switches up the pairings to give the weak defenders better matchups and cover when they screw up, we'll be a much better team even if Corsi says we still suck, because we'll be better able to implement Roy's actual system with better players. How many 2-on-1s has Beauch broken up this year just from solid defense? If we had more of those kinds of players rather than the loser squad we'd be in much better shape once you look at the game this way. I'd also guess that that's why Zadorov has a short leash, because he does a lot of things right but also makes those boneheaded mistakes sometimes that lead to scoring chances against, which is exactly what Roy wants to avoid.

I'd hazard a guess that Roy's experience as a goalie and his intimate familiarity with scoring chances and how much those matter are informing his philosophy that low-danger shots don't matter as much as high-danger ones. Now, do I have a problem with some of the other technical things that Roy does with his systems? You bet your ass I do. Do I think the Avs would be a better team under a better coach? Probably. But I actually agree with his underlying philosophy that Corsi is a flawed stat that doesn't tell the whole story.
 

El_Loco_Avs

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The problem with these stats is that they're taking as a goal in themselves. You don't need to have the most possession to win.

Most dominant teams to try to keep possession because that's a good way to prevent scoring chances against you.

Now I'm a lot more familiar with soccer, and an example there is Atletico Madrid consistently beating Real Madrid with 'possession stats' that would even make us laugh.

I really think the problem lies in the transition game not working well enough a lot of the time. And whatever the **** happens in 3rd periods that keeps us melting down.
 

Alex Jones

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There actually is a way to measure the quality of scoring chance, there is a high danger chance stat.

The Avs are terrible at that stat. They do not keep shots to the outside.
 

Foppa2118

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There actually is a way to measure the quality of scoring chance, there is a high danger chance stat.

The Avs are terrible at that stat. They do not keep shots to the outside.

Whose job is it to patrol those high danger scoring areas, most of the time?
 

AslanRH

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Whose job is it to patrol those high danger scoring areas, most of the time?

That's a good question, at least for a scheme novice like myself.

Seems one defenseman always patrols right in front of the net and the other chases the puck anytime it is below the line. Would that be the center or the offside winger's responsibility?
 

Foppa2118

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That's a good question, at least for a scheme novice like myself.

Seems one defenseman always patrols right in front of the net and the other chases the puck anytime it is below the line. Would that be the center or the offside winger's responsibility?

Doesn't matter what system you play, the defenseman are the ones primarily responsible for covering forwards in front of the net, tying up sticks for dangerous rebound chances, and blocking passes from down low into the slot.

If a forward is there by himself, he's just temporarily covering for the D man, until they have a chance to get back in position. Hence the poor defensive ability from numerous Avalanche defenseman contributing to dangerous scoring chances.
 

Boulder Avalanche

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Is there a stat that adds shot and scoring chance quality to CORSI? In my opinion that would be a much more valuable metric. The quality of the shot matters. A dump in that happens to be a shot on net is much different than a one timer from the hash marks.
 

PAZ

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Is there a stat that adds shot and scoring chance quality to CORSI? In my opinion that would be a much more valuable metric. The quality of the shot matters. A dump in that happens to be a shot on net is much different than a one timer from the hash marks.

There was a graph that showed the type of shots the Avs gave up, don't remember where I saw it though. There was a high percentage of outside shots, but compared to the rest of the league we also gave up a lot of shots in 'danger areas' as well which is basically between the hash marks and below.
 

Balthazar

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There was a graph that showed the type of shots the Avs gave up, don't remember where I saw it though. There was a high percentage of outside shots, but compared to the rest of the league we also gave up a lot of shots in 'danger areas' as well which is basically between the hash marks and below.

Exactly. There's no strategy behind how many shots we give. Other teams get tons of SOG because they have the puck and control the play while we wait for turnovers.
 

AslanRH

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Doesn't matter what system you play, the defenseman are the ones primarily responsible for covering forwards in front of the net, tying up sticks for dangerous rebound chances, and blocking passes from down low into the slot.

If a forward is there by himself, he's just temporarily covering for the D man, until they have a chance to get back in position. Hence the poor defensive ability from numerous Avalanche defenseman contributing to dangerous scoring chances.

But that would be my question.

I watch the Avs and it seems to me we have at least 1 defenseman away from that danger area much more often than many teams. They are chasing guys to the top of the circles at times rather than handing the coverage off to the FWD on that side. Or caught up along the half wall in a scrum. or chasing a guy from one corner all the way behind the net to the other corner

Is that system or execution related? Or maybe it is just my perception and they really aren't that different from other teams?
 

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