Post-Game Talk: Avs 4, Pens 2 - Elmo Witnesses Nuclear Destruction

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Jaded-Fan

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Yeah for sure and I was likely / am likely too hard on JR for taking this long. Obviously you can't force another GM to give you a stud young center, but it's obvious that center depth is a need and if it takes overpaying for it, JR might have to do it. As long as the acquisitions are young and signed or under RFA control for several years, I can be okay with an overpayment.


................. until you see the price.

This reminds me of the Fleury debate where many wanted to jettison him with no replacement in sight but just knowing that some unicorn goalie was there for the taking on the cheap who would be better. And it became an all or nothing thing. If you said better to wait until you had a decent replacement that you could count on you were unable to see Fleury's issues.

This unicorn center without a name, let's call him 'Backup QB', is going to be the most popular guy in Pittsburgh as long as he has no name and price.

No one is liking what we are seeing, nor are we blind to what Sheahan is, and is not. He was cheap as dirt and actually surprisingly better than I thought he would be. He actually is quietly good at his job and rarely messes up. Filled a need at FO's which we have needed since last year. And is scoring of late. He ain't the reason that the team is struggling and you would run out of fingers counting on two hands counting other players responsible before getting to him.

In fact I would be fine keeping him going forward depending on the price, he is good to have on the team.
 

PensandCaps

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I'd rather just have Hornqvist there. He should be stapled to Sids RW.

Sprong is not a grinder on the boards or good enough defensively. That line will be hemmed in their zone all day. Guentzel is just okay defensively and Crosby isn't playing good defensively this year either. That line will be a mess imo.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Though to be fair center is the easiest position in hockey to find.

The league is full of not just centers but top end talent at centers. It is why you see the trade deadline full of offerings and no one gets full value for one.
 

Tom Hanks

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If you have the right 4C, that bottom six is what you want.

I still haven't figured out what assets and cap space you're using to add a L1 RW and a L2 LW, but the cap never prevented others from saying the Pens should've resigned Nick Bonino, so I suppose you're entitled too . . . :thumbu:

:laugh: Cap space it’d probably need a Hags flip for L2 LW (Or he becomes good again, doesn’t look like it). They wouldn’t need to be a traditional top 6’er but good in the skills Phil/Geno need.

Sid’s RW we would have to use our 1st, Cole possibly Sprong (if it’s a longer term winger). Haven’t really looked at who would be a good fit there (damn work getting in the way of my hockey research :laugh:).
 

Andy99

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I'd rather just have Hornqvist there. He should be stapled to Sids RW.

Sprong is not a grinder on the boards or good enough defensively. That line will be hemmed in their zone all day. Guentzel is just okay defensively and Crosby isn't playing good defensively this year either. That line will be a mess imo.

Hey, I love Horny there. But that requires a coach and a player who want to put him there. Sid doesn't want to play with him apparently and Sully moves him off that line accordingly. So we're looking for other options
 

canadianguy77

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Crosby needs at least one winger with some speed and jam along the walls. And we need at least one more defencemen who is fast,smart, and confident enough to join in those battles along the half wall in the offensive zone so they can maintain possession. With Schultz out, its pretty much only Letang who will do that on a regular basis.

What I've been seeing this season is that teams who are defending the Crosby line are just clogging up the neutral zone to make his line play a dump and chase game that Crosby seemingly hates to play now, and when his line does have possession deep, the other team gets it to the half wall where his wingers will usually be outnumbered and too weak, and then its an easy out and the puck is gone the other way.
 

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Here's whats frustrating, to me least - last nights game you saw an Avs team all revved up to take on the champs and get the season sweep. They know they aren't going to the playoffs. They know they are not a cup contender. They know they are going to be bad for awhile before they get better. So minor morale boosters like this mean a heck of a lot more to them than us. They wanted that game on a level that we have a tough time getting to right now. Why that is, I have no idea because we are now a borderline playoff team. They had motivation and they outskated us the entire game.

Now, that said, we had the ability to win that game. Easily. We can bitch about the roster and 99% of the time, it's a solid, well founded argument. But all the roster changes in the world wouldn't have won that game last night. Malkin looked like he was out for a nice Sunday skate, Letang looked like he was playing hungover, and it seemed like the last thing Sidney flipping Crosby wanted to do was shoot a puck into their net. The only line that looked like they gave a rat's poo was the 4th line...and that's embarrassing. We aren't winning games if that's the case no matter who our 3C is or who our LWs are.

What I'm seeing from Sid and Geno and Letang right now is what I saw from Ovechkin during his slumping years. Ovie got very accustomed to bringing the puck down the left side, entering the zone, cutting to the middle, and ripping off a shot. Over and over and over and over and over again. Finally, dmen figured it out, goalies figured it out, and it became 1000% ineffective. All three of our stars are making the same plays, the same mistakes, and it's getting worn out. How many times has Sid pulled up and gone to the point only to have NOTHING materialize from it? How many times have all three passed up a clean shot for a low percentage cross ice pass that 99.9999% of the time materializes into NOTHING? What made them great was "here are guys that can beat you in several ways so they are tough to play against". Now it's much more of "okay, we know Sid will pull up and defer to a trailing dman. Everyone good with letting Maatta, Rudwedel, or Cole taking a 60ft shot on the net over Sidney Crosby in closer? Good."

All the roster moves in the world aren't gonna change things if this is how our stars are choosing the play.

One extremely pleasant surprise is Sheahan's faceoff percentage. Almost 60 percent the last time that I looked. Something that the Pens had been desperate for, a reliable guy to take key faceoffs.

Rocky start for him here but I think he's become exactly what he needs to be here. Would be nice to get more production sure but he's become a very good 3C for us. Maybe the not the exact 3C we need right now but he's proved his worth. At this point, if you're ragging on Sheahan, you're doing it just to do it or you're still throwing a tantrum about JR not bringing in the guy you wanted. Period.

Do you think Sheahan is better than either Cullen or Bones, let alone both of them? Because that's the downgrade we've had here, and at a time when our superstars could use more help, not less.

Sid and Geno can obviously be better, but I don't think it should be controversial to say that they could probably use more help this year than previous years because of how much hockey they've played the last couple seasons.

I think Sheahan is on par with at least Bonino given Bonino's regular season play. When people think Bonino, they think playoff Bonino who was a warrior. No one wants to admit that outside of two months in early 2016, Bonino was a dud in the regular season. Apples to apples, Sheahan has been no better or no worse at this point. If Sheahan is the 3C come playoff time, we'll see how he does and we can adjust our evaluations. Cullen brought a lot more to the table than just points so, to me, its hard to compare. No, Sheahan does not replace Cullen. Perhaps that's a better way to put it.

But we all know, or at least we should all know, that JR wants(ed) a better 3C. He's out there looking. He knows. We know. That doesn't discount Sheahan's more than acceptable play lately.

Sheary and Hornqvist would work on the 3rd line together. That leaves Sid without a RW that fits. We could trade for a stronger one (like the LW for Phil/Geno) That would put Rust on the 4th line (which isn’t a bad thing). We do need a better 4C too.

Guentzel-Crosby-Trade
Trade-Malkin-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist
Hags(if cap fits)/Archie-Trade-Rust

If we get a 3C and bump Sheahan to the 4C, that would be ideal. Now that HAS to come with a philosophical change in the 4th line. Kuhn-Sheahan-Reaves...and you're just spinning your tires. There will be no difference between Rowney and Sheahan if you're determined to jam square Reaves into the round 4th line wing hole. If that's what they want, they may as well trade Sheahan and get the cap space and get a winger than can add wing depth to the 4th line. Nothing is going to change until they change Reaves to a selective usage player. Sid or no Sid, good guy or no good guy, at some point you have to take an objective look at what's not working.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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It's a strawman argument to point out the simple fact that players get older and slightly past their prime, and that it's important that the rest of the team compensate for that if you want to continue to have a high level of success? You're right though. They just need to simplify their game and defy the aging process. WTF?

This isn't Stevie Y. on a loaded Wings team with no salary cap in sight. You want to talk about strawmen?

This is such a BS argument that I can't stop rolling my eyes...

They are 30 and 31, not 40 and 41.

Being a whopping one year older is not causing them to blindly throw pucks into dangerous spaces and put three pucks directly on Avs sticks as Malkin did yesterday.

Yzerman always had talent around him, so another BS argument. I followed his career as a kid from the early 90s on and he made a conscious effort to be more defensively responsible and manage the puck well when Bowman arrived.

It's not an easy thing to do for superstars who want to play a high risk game like Malkin, Letang and Crosby. However, it's not working for them or the team, and they individually have to make their own decisions to simplify their games and get things back on track. No one else can do that for them, despite the silliness being bantered about on here.

So acting as if age is making them play irresponsible hockey is asinine.

I'm not angry at them (or anyone on the team really), nor am I putting all the blame at their feet, but let's use hyperbole and claim that. Again, cool. However, if they don't recover their games, no changes will help this team, I guarantee you that.
 
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Pancakes

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One thing nobody is mentioning in the rush to make moves is this: We're dead last in 5v5 shooting percentage, and dead last in 5v5 save percentage. Dead last! We're shooting 5.5 as a team at 5v5. Does anyone really think that will last? We're getting incredibly bad shooting luck this year on both sides of the puck at 5v5.

We've had some stinkers no doubt but we're also getting exceptionally poor luck, and I don't think that will last.

I still want to make moves because I think the team composition is flawed though.
 

Fatty McLardy

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One thing nobody is mentioning in the rush to make moves is this: We're dead last in 5v5 shooting percentage, and dead last in 5v5 save percentage. Dead last! We're shooting 5.5 as a team at 5v5. Does anyone really think that will last? We're getting incredibly bad shooting luck this year on both sides of the puck at 5v5.

We've had some stinkers no doubt but we're also getting exceptionally poor luck, and I don't think that will last.

I still want to make moves because I think the team composition is flawed though.

What makes you think we'll shoot higher than 5.5, it could happen but 40 games is enough to know its not bad luck. Its more like the Penguins are taking lot of crappy shots and making every goalie look like Brodeur, i can't remember the last time the Pens dominated the opposition but their goalie actually stole the game for them. Not just bunch of perimeter shots from the point with no screens...
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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What makes you think we'll shoot higher than 5.5, it could happen but 40 games is enough to know its not bad luck. Its more like the Penguins are taking lot of crappy shots and making every goalie look like Brodeur, i can't remember the last time the Pens dominated the opposition but their goalie actually stole the game for them. Not just bunch of perimeter shots from the point with no screens...

Rask's forcefield technology has finally caught up, league-wide.
 
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Gurglesons

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One thing nobody is mentioning in the rush to make moves is this: We're dead last in 5v5 shooting percentage, and dead last in 5v5 save percentage. Dead last! We're shooting 5.5 as a team at 5v5. Does anyone really think that will last? We're getting incredibly bad shooting luck this year on both sides of the puck at 5v5.

We've had some stinkers no doubt but we're also getting exceptionally poor luck, and I don't think that will last.

I still want to make moves because I think the team composition is flawed though.

I mean, we are also getting routinely out shot right?
 

WheresRamziAbid

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What makes you think we'll shoot higher than 5.5, it could happen but 40 games is enough to know its not bad luck. Its more like the Penguins are taking lot of crappy shots and making every goalie look like Brodeur, i can't remember the last time the Pens dominated the opposition but their goalie actually stole the game for them. Not just bunch of perimeter shots from the point with no screens...

1. Thats actually not true, at all.

2. Their expected 5v5 goals (which takes that all into account) the last i looked is actually around league average. Considering their percentages are dead last, what does that tell you?
 

Jaded-Fan

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Is this another one of those sarcastic posts?

UFA Brian Boyle got a 2nd and a C- prospect.

I was being completely serious.

obvioussigns.jpg


But just to be safe, be careful of the hot fire next time.
 

Gurglesons

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1. Thats actually not true, at all.

2. Their expected 5v5 goals (which takes that all into account) the last i looked is actually around league average. Considering their percentages are dead last, what does that tell you?

I think you can definitey say our numbers should regress (progress?) to the mean, which is when people say we are a one round and done team they are being over dramatic.

The issue is we may not make the dance if our numbers stay the same.
 

Jaded-Fan

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1. Thats actually not true, at all.

2. Their expected 5v5 goals (which takes that all into account) the last i looked is actually around league average. Considering their percentages are dead last, what does that tell you?

That they are taking crappy shots because they do not want to work, either in front of the net or to get a turnover, to get into position to take high quality shots?
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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This is such a BS argument that I can't stop rolling my eyes...

They are 30 and 31, not 40 and 41.

Being a whopping one year older is not causing them to blindly throw pucks into dangerous spaces and put three pucks directly on Avs stick as Malkin did yesterday.

Yzerman always had talent around him, so another BS argument. I followed his career as a kid from the early 90s on and he made a conscious effort to be more defensively responsible and manage the puck well when Bowman arrived.

It's not an easy thing to do for superstars who want to play a high risk game like Malkin, Letang and Crosby. However, it's not working for them or the team, and they individually have to make their own decisions to simplify their games and get things back on track. No one else can do that for them, despite the silliness being bantered about on here.

So acting as if age is making them play irresponsible hockey is asinine.

I'm not angry at them (or anyone on the team really), nor am I putting all the blame at their feet, but let's use hyperbole and claim that. Again, cool. However, if they don't recover their games, no changes will help this team, I guarantee you that.

No one's blaming them over here either. It's not BS when the human body aging is a thing and we've played around 50 games more than anyone else the last two years, and the toughest 50 games of that stretch no less. So what year do they become not quite the traditional powerhouses they've been? Does it just never happen? For the third or fourth time in the last like 10 hours I will say this: no one's saying they're done or a shell of their former selves. The fact of the matter is that it looks extremely likely they may not be quite what they once were. If you can't handle that then you might want to start trying, because it's coming sooner or later.

As we all know, they're the engine that runs this team. So they simplify their games. All right. Does that result in more consistent offensive dominance by them, and the byproduct of other players being more useful game in, game out? If it does then great. That's the only way this team is talking playoffs, let alone Cup though. Even if they go back to basics and play a better 200 foot game, I see the team improving in other ways but not in the category that really determines their success, noted above. It's still not enough even with some patchwork trades, because those two need to be dominant as opposed to really good.

There's going to be a year where Sid and Geno aren't quite enough to gloss over any deficiencies we have. If you don't think it's this year that's fine, but from what I see I'm of the opinion that it's time to play the "you can only ask so much of people" card, and it's in no way a knock on either of them. They've played 35 games. I've waited this long to make any proclamations whatsoever. I've seen enough to feel strongly that their dominance has reached the beginning of the end. That's all.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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That they are taking crappy shots because they do not want to work, either in front of the net or to get a turnover, to get into position to take high quality shots?

xGF takes where shots come from into account so that is neutralized. Its basically saying while our PDO is awful the process is league average and should be expected to get league average results going forward.
 

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
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I think you can definitey say our numbers should regress (progress?) to the mean, which is when people say we are a one round and done team they are being over dramatic.

The issue is we may not make the dance if our numbers stay the same.

Bingo... we have a winner
 

Fatty McLardy

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Oct 6, 2017
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1. Thats actually not true, at all.

2. Their expected 5v5 goals (which takes that all into account) the last i looked is actually around league average. Considering their percentages are dead last, what does that tell you?

Either way, i see every shift our players deferring to the point for a shot by our d-men who can't shoot for shit. I don't see them try to work the puck toward the middle on a consistent basis, they're too spread out in the o-zone. Too many wrong things happening to just blame it on bad luck or shooting percentage..
 

The Old Master

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Sep 27, 2004
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If we get a 3C and bump Sheahan to the 4C, that would be ideal. [/QUOTE]
yes, sheahan replaces bones....what we need is a center that can fill in as a top two center.....that's not bones or sheahan...that was done by Cullen, so he is what we need to replace and/or improve on. don't be confused by what line they mostly played on, Cullen only played on the fourth line be cause he needed limited ice time (age). imo
 

EightyOne

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Here's whats frustrating, to me least - last nights game you saw an Avs team all revved up to take on the champs and get the season sweep. They know they aren't going to the playoffs. They know they are not a cup contender. They know they are going to be bad for awhile before they get better. So minor morale boosters like this mean a heck of a lot more to them than us. They wanted that game on a level that we have a tough time getting to right now. Why that is, I have no idea because we are now a borderline playoff team. They had motivation and they outskated us the entire game. .




The Pens just don carrre. Dey say dey do. But dey donnn.
 
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