Post-Game Talk: Aves 4 Canucks 2 (Lammikko quest for 0 in 82 is over)

sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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When the details stink as well as the special teams you only have one reason. Coaching.

Also from home on the Couch the game looked even in the numbers because of score effects and Colorado had 3 5on5 chances and a penalty drawn in the first 5 minutes.

They then looked disinterested and cruised until going behind, shifted from 2nd gear to 3rd, drew some PP’s, took the lead then expertly ran off the clock.

What would you say the percentage of seats filled were. Apparently top 5 in attendance but doesn’t come across on tv. Looks like 75% in lower bowl.
Was actually surprised how full it was given the state of the team and the province for that matter. Not sure but yeas maybe 75-80% lower and a fairly full upper bowl though

First game since before Covid for me and the details were astonishingly bad off the puck. Delayed and reactive on defense and as nice as they can look playing the puck around the perimeter the penetration to the house is weak to say the least.

The flaws offensively are perhaps that this team just has too many players that don't attack the middle of the ice instinctively. Boeser Pettersson Hoglander Garland are just not built that way and Dickinson not being good enough at it as a top9 forward. The net drive and presence is on the coaching staff completely that should just be basic stuff. It's really at the point where players need to singled out for not doing it or perhaps in this day and age they have to have a miners helmet for the guy that was willing to dig his way there so no one gets their feelings hurt.:dunno:idk but it's a problem that isn't gonna just go away without some either renewed investment by the players or roster changes. You just dont score goals without either catching goalies off guard with quick strikes or disrupting the space of the goalies. I'm not sure why this is so hard to figure out.

Defensively i dont know what to say this has been evident for so long. And it's just not acceptable to play like that so often. especially when losing so badly....I question the players desires and i question Green and his willingness to fight with them to change how they engage themselves into the game. It's really laziness and a lack of development at this point. It's not just the Canucks who have these issues but it's the frequency that which they concede inside positions and get beat to openings that is defeating.

The players coach thing is not gonna get these guys to where they need to be. This group needs a Tortz like wake up and i dont want Tortz i'm just saying someone with enough cache and respect and enough of a hard ass that they have no internal excuses to not get stuck in. They can't be getting free passes for this stuff and they need that next step in development or this core dies.
 
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Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
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Hiding under WTG's bed...
Was actually surprised how full it was given the state of the team and the province for that matter. Not sure but yeas maybe 75-80% lower and a fairly full upper bowl though
When things are fully 100% opened up (if that every happens :(), that is the time to see how bad (or good) it is attendance-wise imho. Still only so many things one can spend their disposable/entertainment money on.
 

VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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Is realize the Canucks had to move from Juolevi.....but on a good NHL team I just can't see there being a place for a player like Lammikko. And Juulsen has been nothing special in Abbotsford.

Juolevi hasn't played a game for the Panthers (injured again, COVID symptoms or something). But the Panthers still win this trade. They shed themselves of two contracts they apparently didn't even want on their AHL team.
 

sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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When things are fully 100% opened up (if that every happens :(), that is the time to see how bad (or good) it is attendance-wise imho. Still only so many things one can spend their disposable/entertainment money on.
Agree and like @RandV said these are a lot of seats that were given away or pre sold to people that bought into this before Covid thinking they were about to emerge as a competitive team
 
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Iron Mike Sharpe

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Dec 6, 2017
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Team most likely to exceed expectations:
Elliotte Friedman:
I was going to pick New Jersey, but with MacKenzie Blackwood's situation uncertain, I'm going with Winnipeg
Caroline Cameron: Vancouver
David Amber:
Philadelphia
Jeff Marek: Los Angeles
Luke Fox: Winnipeg
Eric Francis: Vancouver
Gene Principe:
Seattle
Gord Stellick: Los Angeles
Ken Wiebe: Vancouver
Sean Reynolds:
Chicago
Dan Murphy: Los Angeles
Justin Bourne: Carolina
Nick Kypreos: Islanders
Eric Engels: Calgary
Christine Simpson: Ottawa
Ryan Dixon: Calgary
Iain MacIntyre: Seattle
Mark Spector: Vancouver

The top 2 experts from our main rivals Calgary and Edmonton thought that the Canucks were going to take a huge step this season....

Yet all of the top analytics sites said the Canucks are going to miss the playoffs this year. Go figure.
 
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geebster

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As per usual they looked good 5 on 5 and shat the bed on special teams then tried some late game heroics and fell short. That was the pattern before the road trip too. I dont see how they expect huge positive changes without making any changes. How is Green still the coach right now?
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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For me, the PK is a real problem for Travis Green...if you look at the Carolina Hurricanes, since Rod Brind'Amour took over as coach in 2018 they have the best PK in the league, its because he knows how to coach, he was one of the premiere defensive players and PK'ers in the league when he played. He knows who is best suited to be on his PK units and he knows how to get the most out of them. Travis Green puts out players who have no business being on a PK unit and continually rides them despite the lack of any semblance of success...I'm not sure how anyone can look at Green and see a guy who really knows what he's doing.

the funny thing is, green was a good defensive player. as a rookie, he was assigned to mario and the islanders upset probably the most unstoppable penguins team of that era.

Without Turgeon, who had 13 points in the first round, the Islanders faced a tall task against Pittsburgh, which was led by Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr and coached by the legendary Scotty Bowman. Arbour told rookie Travis Green and journeyman Brad Dalgarno to defend Lemieux's line — no pressure.

"That line did a hell of a job against them in the series," Ferraro said. "Al told them, 'That's your job, do it. Do it the best you can.' Who wouldn't want to play for a guy like that?"

After winning four Stanley Cups, Arbour shined again with 1993 Islanders

green just has no idea how to coach what he did on the ice.

like, i think there's no reason that someone like phil housley, who never played a minute of PK, could coach it. he made his living picking apart other teams' PKs so he knows how they work. (i think the actual phil housley is not a very good coach, but just as an arbitrary example, he could be good...)

it's ironic to me, actually. green is a player who got an almost unfathomable chance as a rookie. freakin' hall of fame and four cups al arbour let him center the islanders' checking line with brad dalgarno and brian mullen in the playoffs. they were assigned to mario lemieux at his absolute peak. (tbh i have no memory of green in that series, but i do remember rookie darius kasparaitis, who worked mario.)

but green as a coach is flat out not able to grow his young players. he even almost seems aware of it. here's an old province article —

Travis Green not only played six seasons with the Islanders, he finally broke into the National Hockey league in 1992-93 after three seasons in the minors. The hotshot junior centre quickly learned that Arbour would break his bad habits and push him far enough to almost break his spirit.

Arbour was as blunt as a stick to the face. He also knew when encouragement was more important than outrage. It’s how the Islanders won four-consecutive Stanley Cup titles from 1980 to 1983.

Arbour presented the opportunity and let players decide their roster fates. Sound like Green? The 46-year-old rookie NHL coach you see in Vancouver today is a product of the environment he endured in Uniondale.

“Sometimes I laugh to myself when I think of some of the things I talk about,” recalled the Castlegar native. “As a coach, I wouldn’t like the young player I was, but I would like the older player. The older player had a better understanding of how to win and the younger one didn’t.

“But I also understand why. I was nervous as hell for a long time. I was a shy kid. And sometimes, I showed it in cockiness, but deep down I was very insecure. It took me a while.

“I remember my fifth game in the league and we were in the old arena in St. Louis. I was playing OK, but not great. Al kicked me in the ass from behind — like hard. He bent down and whispered: ‘You need to decide if you want to play in the NHL. And you need to decide right now.’

“I wasn’t fooling him with my game. I wasn’t playing well, but he double-shifted me the rest of the game. I never went back (to playing poorly) after that. He forced me out of my comfort zone and made me uncomfortable and said sink or swim.”

...

That had such a profound affect on Green that he can remember the exact day of the week that Arbour went from menacing mentor to caring coach.

The Islanders were pushing for a 1993 playoff spot — they snuck in and then dispatched the Washington Capitals and Pittsburgh Penguins before losing to the Montreal Canadiens in five games of Eastern Conference final — and along the way Green saw a lasting side of Arbour.

“It was a Thursday night,” Green vividly recalled of his checking line being outclassed by Adam Oates and Cam Neely of the Boston Bruins. “Our line was minus-3 and I was distraught.

“I was in my stall and it wasn’t even 10 minutes after the game and he (Arbour) was standing right in front of me: He said: ‘Listen, those are Hall of Fame players. They’re going to have nights like that. It’s going to happen again. You need to go home and forget about it, learn from it and not stay up all night and worrying about the game.

‘You’ve got Mario Lemieux coming in Saturday and I’m putting you up against him. I need you to be ready.’

“He knew that (minus-3) could really take away a young player’s confidence and I didn’t realize then how important it was. Years later I did. It was very special.”

Kuzma: Al Arbour's tough love allowed Travis Green to grow as player, potential NHL coach | The Province

i mean, how can you read all that and not think to yourself, what a f***ing dumbass.
 

Sedinery

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May 24, 2021
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Why are idiots still paying hard earned cash to Aqua to watch timbits level hockey?

you can go to your local rink and watch rep hockey for free and cheaper concessions

oh, and with real coaches
 

sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
15,990
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the funny thing is, green was a good defensive player. as a rookie, he was assigned to mario and the islanders upset probably the most unstoppable penguins team of that era.

Without Turgeon, who had 13 points in the first round, the Islanders faced a tall task against Pittsburgh, which was led by Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr and coached by the legendary Scotty Bowman. Arbour told rookie Travis Green and journeyman Brad Dalgarno to defend Lemieux's line — no pressure.

"That line did a hell of a job against them in the series," Ferraro said. "Al told them, 'That's your job, do it. Do it the best you can.' Who wouldn't want to play for a guy like that?"

After winning four Stanley Cups, Arbour shined again with 1993 Islanders

green just has no idea how to coach what he did on the ice.

like, i think there's no reason that someone like phil housley, who never played a minute of PK, could coach it. he made his living picking apart other teams' PKs so he knows how they work. (i think the actual phil housley is not a very good coach, but just as an arbitrary example, he could be good...)

it's ironic to me, actually. green is a player who got an almost unfathomable chance as a rookie. freakin' hall of fame and four cups al arbour let him center the islanders' checking line with brad dalgarno and brian mullen in the playoffs. they were assigned to mario lemieux at his absolute peak. (tbh i have no memory of green in that series, but i do remember rookie darius kasparaitis, who worked mario.)

but green as a coach is flat out not able to grow his young players. he even almost seems aware of it. here's an old province article —

Travis Green not only played six seasons with the Islanders, he finally broke into the National Hockey league in 1992-93 after three seasons in the minors. The hotshot junior centre quickly learned that Arbour would break his bad habits and push him far enough to almost break his spirit.

Arbour was as blunt as a stick to the face. He also knew when encouragement was more important than outrage. It’s how the Islanders won four-consecutive Stanley Cup titles from 1980 to 1983.

Arbour presented the opportunity and let players decide their roster fates. Sound like Green? The 46-year-old rookie NHL coach you see in Vancouver today is a product of the environment he endured in Uniondale.

“Sometimes I laugh to myself when I think of some of the things I talk about,” recalled the Castlegar native. “As a coach, I wouldn’t like the young player I was, but I would like the older player. The older player had a better understanding of how to win and the younger one didn’t.

“But I also understand why. I was nervous as hell for a long time. I was a shy kid. And sometimes, I showed it in cockiness, but deep down I was very insecure. It took me a while.

“I remember my fifth game in the league and we were in the old arena in St. Louis. I was playing OK, but not great. Al kicked me in the ass from behind — like hard. He bent down and whispered: ‘You need to decide if you want to play in the NHL. And you need to decide right now.’

“I wasn’t fooling him with my game. I wasn’t playing well, but he double-shifted me the rest of the game. I never went back (to playing poorly) after that. He forced me out of my comfort zone and made me uncomfortable and said sink or swim.”

...

That had such a profound affect on Green that he can remember the exact day of the week that Arbour went from menacing mentor to caring coach.

The Islanders were pushing for a 1993 playoff spot — they snuck in and then dispatched the Washington Capitals and Pittsburgh Penguins before losing to the Montreal Canadiens in five games of Eastern Conference final — and along the way Green saw a lasting side of Arbour.

“It was a Thursday night,” Green vividly recalled of his checking line being outclassed by Adam Oates and Cam Neely of the Boston Bruins. “Our line was minus-3 and I was distraught.

“I was in my stall and it wasn’t even 10 minutes after the game and he (Arbour) was standing right in front of me: He said: ‘Listen, those are Hall of Fame players. They’re going to have nights like that. It’s going to happen again. You need to go home and forget about it, learn from it and not stay up all night and worrying about the game.

‘You’ve got Mario Lemieux coming in Saturday and I’m putting you up against him. I need you to be ready.’

“He knew that (minus-3) could really take away a young player’s confidence and I didn’t realize then how important it was. Years later I did. It was very special.”

Kuzma: Al Arbour's tough love allowed Travis Green to grow as player, potential NHL coach | The Province

i mean, how can you read all that and not think to yourself, what a f***ing dumbass.
Green is no dumb ass. He has fallen victim to being complacent and having a roster of lower level scoring stars who want to cheat the game. I also believe his assistants have let him down and created confusion and mixed messages.

His roster decisions more than his coaching ability IMO has tuned out some of his players. His training camps and willingness to treat this team like successful vets has been a critical flaw. Rather than grinding them making "every player" accountable to the standards of winning hockey he has been complacent. It's evident in pre season, in the starts to games and in the growth of his players. His answer is a line blender vs a benching, a thrown together 3rd line throwing 2/3rds of his top3 lines in flux instead of making Boeser (or whoever) play on a 4th line in a game where they came up lame.

It is now at the point where Green represents losing and that necessitates change. Even if they don't verbalize it you can tell they are not willing to change the way they play with him. He's not gonna be booting anyone in the ass in this day and age

Travis Green is the excuse and the players cannot have excuses.
 
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sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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Why are idiots still paying hard earned cash to Aqua to watch timbits level hockey?

you can go to your local rink and watch rep hockey for free and cheaper concessions

oh, and with real coaches
I would advocate for junior hockey. The success of those programs help pay for schooling, lead to scholarships and increased development with your local grown players.

For 20-30$ it's a no brainer...all good seats and almost always 100% effort and the amount of open ice makes for entertainment from the highly skilled. It's incredibly fun watching Kirby Dach, Dylan Cozens, Bowen Byram etc against their peers before they get to the squeezed ice and massive goalies of the NHL.
 
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MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Eric Francis and Mark Spector both voted that the Canucks would be the most improved team...The only point I'm making is that on paper, they were an improved hockey team over last season..

Except they weren’t.

Schmidt = OEL
Poolman = Benn
Edler : NO REPLACEMENT OF TEAM’S MAIN SHUTDOWN/PK DEFENDER.

Virtanen = Podkolzin
Beagle = Dickinson, or not far off
Bottom 6 junk = Worse but cheaper bottom 6 junk
Garland : ONE GOOD FORWARD ADDED.

Basically we took a bad team, added one skill forward and took away one top high-leverage defender. And gutted the roster of guys who can PK. That is not some sort of big move forward.

People were f***ing dazzled by the volume of additions/changes rather than looking at the guys moving the needle at the top end of the roster.
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
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Hiding under WTG's bed...
Except they weren’t.

Schmidt = OEL
Poolman = Benn
Edler : NO REPLACEMENT OF TEAM’S MAIN SHUTDOWN/PK DEFENDER.


Virtanen = Podkolzin
Beagle = Dickinson, or not far off
Bottom 6 junk = Worse but cheaper bottom 6 junk
Garland : ONE GOOD FORWARD ADDED.

Basically we took a bad team, added one skill forward and took away one top high-leverage defender. And gutted the roster of guys who can PK. That is not some sort of big move forward.

People were f***ing dazzled by the volume of additions/changes rather than looking at the guys moving the needle at the top end of the roster.
As well, Full-time Hamonic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part-time Hamonic.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
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Except they weren’t.

Schmidt = OEL
Poolman = Benn
Edler : NO REPLACEMENT OF TEAM’S MAIN SHUTDOWN/PK DEFENDER.

Virtanen = Podkolzin
Beagle = Dickinson, or not far off
Bottom 6 junk = Worse but cheaper bottom 6 junk
Garland : ONE GOOD FORWARD ADDED.

Basically we took a bad team, added one skill forward and took away one top high-leverage defender. And gutted the roster of guys who can PK. That is not some sort of big move forward.

People were f***ing dazzled by the volume of additions/changes rather than looking at the guys moving the needle at the top end of the roster.
Poolman is better than Benn...OEL is better than Schmidt (my opinion)...and add in your healthy franchise player.
 

Burke's Evil Spirit

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Oct 29, 2002
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Poolman is better than Benn...OEL is better than Schmidt (my opinion)...and add in your healthy franchise player.

You don't think that after watching hyped Benning acquisition after hyped Benning acquisition faceplant spectacularly your "opinions" like OEL > Schmidt might be....wrong?

11 points in 15 games for Schmidt this season, anchoring the top pair on a much better team than the Canucks.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Poolman is better than Benn...OEL is better than Schmidt (my opinion)...and add in your healthy franchise player.

Poolman isn't any better than Benn. They're both low-skill 3rd pairing RHDs who can low-event their way through 15-17 minutes/game. Poolman is a better asset going forward because he's younger, but there is no significant difference there.

Schmidt has out-performed OEL for 5 seasons in a row. Even if you want to argue mitigating circumstances, there is no huge difference there.

On Pettersson : 1) He was there for half of last year and the team still sucked, and 2) THERE WILL ALWAYS BE INJURIES. Looking at your fully healthy roster on a whiteboard and saying 'Oh, it's better!' is the Jim Benning recipe for failure.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
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You don't think that after watching hyped Benning acquisition after hyped Benning acquisition faceplant spectacularly your "opinions" like OEL > Schmidt might be....wrong?

11 points in 15 games for Schmidt this season, anchoring the top pair on a much better team than the Canucks.
Schmidt was used in a shutdown role with Edler when he was here last season (did a good job too..imo)..He's been given the green light to play a more offensive role with the Jets...
 

MS

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Schmidt was used in a shutdown role with Edler when he was here last season (did a good job too..imo)..He's been given the green light to play a more offensive role with the Jets...

He has?

Morrisey-Schmidt is their main shutdown/matchup pairing. Pionk-Dillon are getting 60% 0-zone starts and the Stanley-Demelo pairing is only playing 13-14 minutes/game.

Now, playing shutdown minutes for a good team means you don't get buried quite as badly as for a terrible possession team like Vancouver, but he isn't playing some sheltered skill role. At all. And was Vegas' main matchup defender for 3 years as well.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
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He has?

Morrisey-Schmidt is their main shutdown/matchup pairing. Pionk-Dillon are getting 60% 0-zone starts and the Stanley-Demelo pairing is only playing 13-14 minutes/game.

Now, playing shutdown minutes for a good team means you don't get buried quite as badly as for a terrible possession team like Vancouver, but he isn't playing some sheltered skill role. At all. And was Vegas' main matchup defender for 3 years as well.
Schmidt had 30% offensive zone starts for the Canucks last season with Edler.(they were our shutdown D pair)...Playing now with 55% offensive zone starts with the Jets..Playing PP, and all situations in a more offensive role...Its no surprise his points are higher, and he had a strong start.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
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Vancouver, BC
Schmidt had 30% offensive zone starts for the Canucks last season with Edler.(they were our shutdown D pair)...Playing now with 55% offensive zone starts with the Jets..Playing PP, and all situations in a more offensive role...Its no surprise his points are higher, and he had a strong start.

Because Winnipeg is good and dominates possession, basically nobody on their team gets below 50% zone starts. Yes he's getting more PP minutes but at ES he's playing the same role there that he was here, it just looks different statistically.

Stanley-Demelo are right at about 50% but again they're playing low minutes and getting the defensive starts against other teams' 3rd/4th lines.
 

geebaan

7th round busted
Oct 27, 2012
10,325
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Schmidt had 30% offensive zone starts for the Canucks last season with Edler.(they were our shutdown D pair)...Playing now with 55% offensive zone starts with the Jets..Playing PP, and all situations in a more offensive role...Its no surprise his points are higher, and he had a strong start.

can you hear yourself? What has OEL got here? Zero PP time? He’s been given a ton of minutes and PP and is on pace for 20 points, making a million more dollars. That you are arguing OEL has been better is utterly laughable, and shows your clear bias. My god.
 

TraderJim

Um.. like.. you know
Apr 18, 2006
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Because Winnipeg is good and dominates possession, basically nobody on their team gets below 50% zone starts. Yes he's getting more PP minutes but at ES he's playing the same role there that he was here, it just looks different statistically.

Stanley-Demelo are right at about 50% but again they're playing low minutes and getting the defensive starts against other teams' 3rd/4th lines.
I honestly don't know how you have the patience.
 

dman34

Registered User
May 6, 2011
613
379
Good performance last night. Canucks were dominant at evens and were only scored on while they either had no goalie or had only 3 players with sticks on the ice. The Canucks need to sort out their PK woes, but 5v3 and 4v3 PKs are far more determined by the offensive team executing and by goal-tending than what the penalty-killing skaters do. Once again, the Canucks just need Demko to make some saves on the PK. First goal against was a good screen by Landeskog, but goals 2 and 3 were soft.

Kadri goal 2: He completely loses his net on the Rantanen shot, pumps the rebound into the slot and then loses the net again trying to dive to make the save on the rebound.
Makar goal 3: Wide open shot, but one with little pre-shot movement. No screen, Demko is set, but gets beaten short-side.


Canucks dominant?
:huh:

The Avs coasted all game and turned it up just enough when they had to to win.

8 years into Benning's tenure and top teams just toy with us. It's pathetic.
 
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M2Beezy

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Except they weren’t.

Schmidt = OEL
Poolman = Benn
Edler : NO REPLACEMENT OF TEAM’S MAIN SHUTDOWN/PK DEFENDER.

Virtanen = Podkolzin
Beagle = Dickinson, or not far off
Bottom 6 junk = Worse but cheaper bottom 6 junk
Garland : ONE GOOD FORWARD ADDED.

Basically we took a bad team, added one skill forward and took away one top high-leverage defender. And gutted the roster of guys who can PK. That is not some sort of big move forward.

People were f***ing dazzled by the volume of additions/changes rather than looking at the guys moving the needle at the top end of the roster.
Yeah but hindsight
 

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