ATLANTA: Thrashing about for answers

[MAROONSRoad]

$150 minimum ticket price? That is delusional.

Why would you need to charge more than double the average NHL ticket price to make up for the fact that arena capacity is 20 percent below average?

Do I need to show my math to demonstrate why the idea of $150 minimum prices is absurd?

Let's put it this way, the Oilers arena has 16.9K capacity and they were tied for 6th spot in NHL ticket revenue with 1.2 million per game in 07-08.

Also, isn't it the case that some form of revenue sharing is available to up to 15 teams. I can't remember the formula. My guess: WPG will be an average NHL team revenue wise -- not top 10 but somewhere in the middle of the pack.

GHOST

 

[danishh]

Calgary and Edmonton received revenue sharing from 1996 to at least 2001 jet.

cool.


in case you havnt noticed, the US economy sucks and canada has oil.
1996 to 2001 are irrelevant.

 

[Free Edler]

Without municipal support in some form to helping keep the Thrashers in Atlanta, the team is as good as gone.

Here's the Mayor, Mohammed Kasim Reed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasim_Reed



It's really not rocket science to figure out that, at a governmental level, the City of Atlanta really could care less about a professional hockey franchise.

I don't get it. What in that profile would lead anyone to believe Reed either would or would not be a supporter of keeping the Thrashers in Atlanta? All I saw there was background on his education, professional life, and bid to get the Georgia state flag changed.

 

[Whileee]

Let's put it this way, the Oilers arena has 16.9K capacity and they were tied for 6th spot in NHL ticket revenue with 1.2 million per game in 07-08.

Also, isn't it the case that some form of revenue sharing is available to up to 15 teams. I can't remember the formula. My guess: WPG will be an average NHL team revenue wise -- not top 10 but somewhere in the middle of the pack.

GHOST

Thanks for these figures. I am often surprised at how often folks post basic financial assertions without even doing some simple math. Windows helpfully provides a calculator, after all.

Based on the above chart, for Winnipeg to match the ticket revenues of Detroit and Philadelphia they would need to average 15,000 per game with an average ticket price of $67. If they averaged $150 per ticket per game with 15,000 fans, they would bring in ticket revenue of $2.25 million per game, which would exceed Toronto and Montreal.

Just to remind folks, the difference in ticket revenue between a 15,000 and 17,500 seat arena is less than many imply. For example, even if you are able to charge an average of $50 for the 2,500 cheapest seats (and this is considerably more than many current teams charge for their "cheap seats"), the additional ticket revenue amounts to about $125,000 per game, or about $5.2 million per year. I expect that the TNSE folks have worked out how they can offset any possible deficits in ticket revenues with ancillary revenues since they own and operate the arena and many businesses and properties affiliated with it.

 

[htpwn]

I don't get it. What in that profile would lead anyone to believe Reed either would or would not be a supporter of keeping the Thrashers in Atlanta? All I saw there was background on his education, professional life, and bid to get the Georgia state flag changed.

I would presume he's alluding to the fact that the mayor is African American and thus while it is not impossible for him to be a hockey fan, statistics say it is pretty unlikely.

"I don't see race … People tell me I'm white, and I believe them, because I own a lot of Jimmy Buffett albums." -- Stephen Colbert

 

[BB79]

Finally, something on this board that makes sense. Wholehearedly agree there, 30 teams is way too many. All it does is water down rivalries and rosters..although I wouldn't mind more like 24 teams, tops.

You're asking the wrong guy - I believe the league should contract to 20 teams.

Plus it's not clear Winnipeg will need revenue sharing.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I don't get it. What in that profile would lead anyone to believe Reed either would or would not be a supporter of keeping the Thrashers in Atlanta? All I saw there was background on his education, professional life, and bid to get the Georgia state flag changed.

Not in the profile, but...

Reese McCranie, spokesman for Reed, said Atlanta has not been approached by the NHL about making a financial deal such as Glendale’s. Even if approached, the city — in the midst of pension reform and possible layoffs in 2012 — would not consider it, McCranie said

Dated May 11...
http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-thrashers/thrashers-future-remains-up-942914.html

 

[Fourier]

FYI Getting accurate information on team finances is almost impossible even for the press which slants things anyways. Most teams pay into it. The Preds have before, but it's only reported how much we receive. Most reports say the Oilers paid in around 800K. Is that Net, because they also qualify and receive from the system? My question is how much do they receive??? They are in Canada so they get a pass on such things. Research what qualifies a market to get RS and Edmonton does. They drew 14K plus, are in a bottom 15 TV market, and did not spend to the cap, they may not have received a full share but should have received something.

The Oilers have never received revenue sharing. You have missed one key component. The team must be in bottom half of the league in revenues. Calgary and Edmonton have not been in this group under this CBA.

 

[C77]

Finally, something on this board that makes sense. Wholehearedly agree there, 30 teams is way too many. All it does is water down rivalries and rosters..although I wouldn't mind more like 24 teams, tops.

24 would be ideal....everyone's chance of winning the Cup goes up

 

[Gnashville]

Let's put it this way, the Oilers arena has 16.9K capacity and they were tied for 6th spot in NHL ticket revenue with 1.2 million per game in 07-08.

Also, isn't it the case that some form of revenue sharing is available to up to 15 teams. I can't remember the formula. My guess: WPG will be an average NHL team revenue wise -- not top 10 but somewhere in the middle of the pack.

GHOST

those numbers are 4 years old!!! So you beleive Chicago is still 28th in gate revenue???? How about Boston?? Washington??

 

[Gnashville]

The Oilers have never received revenue sharing. You have missed one key component. The team must be in bottom half of the league in revenues. Calgary and Edmonton have not been in this group under this CBA.

Have any Proof?? Since Edmonton claims to be losing money it's conceivable they aren't top 15 is it not??? Of Course the media is reporting that no Canadian team has ever received a dime in RS and are footing the bill for the undeserving 24 (repeat a lie long enough)
What's wrong with admitting they possibly received money???
FACT: No ones has any better number than I do and it's all speculation!!!
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Oilers+want+arena+revenue/1987348/story.html

"We lost money last year," LaForge says. "We lost quite a bit of money.

"I've said all along that we can't count on the largesse of the owner's Visa card to keep hockey in Edmonton, or in Calgary, and the building provides the sustainability model that you need through good times and bad."

 

[cbcwpg]

those numbers are 4 years old!!! So you beleive Chicago is still 28th in gate revenue???? How about Boston?? Washington??

Nobody is talking about those teams. If I remember the quote, somebody said a team in Winnipeg would require $150 tickets to survive or not get revenue sharing, and even if this data was 4 years old, it was proven that the $150 ticket claim was bogus.

In regards to the teams you mentioned, its nice to see they have improved. But if you look closely at the bottom you will see the team this thread is based on, and I'm sure 4 years later they are in the same place.

 

[Gnashville]

Nobody is talking about those teams. If I remember the quote, somebody said a team in Winnipeg would require $150 tickets to survive or not get revenue sharing, and even if this data was 4 years old, it was proven that the $150 ticket claim was bogus.

In regards to the teams you mentioned, its nice to see they have improved. But if you look closely at the bottom you will see the team this thread is based on, and I'm sure 4 years later they are in the same place.

No I dont't think Atlanta is top 20 in Revenue and they don't receive full RS either maybe even none since they are in a huge media market. But to instantly say if they were moved to Winnipeg they would become top 15 every year in Revenue is also false is it not. Everyone spouting out these "a Winnipeg team would pay into the system" claims is irresponsible and not true unless the ticket prices are in the range I quoted. Thump your chest be proud to be Canadian but give me facts and not speculation.

 

[Brominator]

No I dont't think Atlanta is top 20 in Revenue and they don't receive full RS either maybe even none since they are in a huge media market. But to instantly say if they were moved to Winnipeg they would become top 15 every year in Revenue is also false is it not. Everyone spouting out these "a Winnipeg team would pay into the system" claims is irresponsible and not true unless the ticket prices are in the range I quoted. Thump your chest be proud to be Canadian but give me facts and not speculation.

You want facts, not speculation, but then make the $150 minimum ticket price claim.

You're right, no one knows whether Winnipeg will truly be in the top 15 in revenue. But that fact doesn't come close to justifying your ridiculous claim of $150 minimum ticket revenue to pay into revenue sharing. $150 minimum ticket prices would kill fan interest in every market, except maybe Toronto and NY. But do the math - @ $150 average ticket prices and just just 10,000 per game attendance, a team would easily be in the top 5 in gate revenue.

You want facts? How about the fact that Atlanta was reported to give away over 2700 FREE tickets on average per game one recent year? Both ATL and PHX bring in around $500,000 revenue per game, based on G&M published figures from a few years ago. And there's no reason to believe either team has improved in gate revenue since that time - their published attendances have actually dropped since then (possibly due to less comps).

For any team to improve on the numbers of either ATL of PHX by 50% - which would be a staggering improvement for those franchises (but not necessarily enough revenue to be sustainable) a team could have average ticket prices of $50 and attendance of 15,000.

I'd like to see you justify your $150 ticket claim. Practice what you preach, man.

Opinion in the media and around the hockey world has changed recently. We're not dumb - we see the massive seas of empty seats at Thrashers and Coyotes games. We don't believe the attendance numbers. And we think that cities like Winnipeg and Quebec could do a whole lot better. I think the NHL believes that too.

 

[Gump Hasek]

No I dont't think Atlanta is top 20 in Revenue and they don't receive full RS either maybe even none since they are in a huge media market. But to instantly say if they were moved to Winnipeg they would become top 15 every year in Revenue is also false is it not. Everyone spouting out these "a Winnipeg team would pay into the system" claims is irresponsible and not true unless the ticket prices are in the range I quoted. Thump your chest be proud to be Canadian but give me facts and not speculation.

Hey Gnashville, I know you are a proud southern expansion booster but prior to bashing Winnipeg's future, why not instead give them a year or two and see the financial results garnered? I personally see Nashville and a potential Winnipeg team as similar small market teams.

Winnipeg has deep pocketed owners, own their own building and have plans to garner revenue from allied businesses in a surrounding entertainment district. I believe that Winnipeg will eventually prove a model for Nashville and other smaller market teams to follow. You should be rooting for Winnipeg because we will prove that a small market can truly thrive.

 

[Duke749]

Hey Gnashville, I know you are a proud southern expansion booster but prior to bashing Winnipeg's future, why not instead give them a year or two and see the financial results garnered? I personally see Nashville and a potential Winnipeg team as similar small market teams.

Winnipeg has deep pocketed owners, own their own building and have plans to garner revenue from allied businesses in a surrounding entertainment district. I believe that Winnipeg will eventually prove a model for Nashville and other smaller market teams to follow. You should be rooting for Winnipeg because we will prove that a small market can truly thrive.

Winnipeg should be fine the first few years regardless of what happens on the ice. It's after those first few years that we will know what kind of market Winnipeg will really be. The only thing that concerns me is that if they go on a perpetual losing streak for years, what the crowds will be like. If they had the kind of teams Florida or Atlanta has had for years. The league doesn't need to go in circles like that when and if they relocate teams. Personally, I don't think it would matter much because the Atlanta team has a bright future regardless of where they are and they will have a committed owner with deep pockets.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

Have any Proof?? Since Edmonton claims to be losing money it's conceivable they aren't top 15 is it not??? Of Course the media is reporting that no Canadian team has ever received a dime in RS and are footing the bill for the undeserving 24 (repeat a lie long enough)
What's wrong with admitting they possibly received money???
FACT: No ones has any better number than I do and it's all speculation!!!
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Oilers+want+arena+revenue/1987348/story.html

I would not take what Oilers management is saying right now at full value as they have their own agenda to push at the moment and that is getting a new arena built.

 

[Ripper]

Ticket revenue drives profit, not attendance

There are some interesting stats that we can all dig up but one truth remains, Canadian teams can and do charge way more for tickets than most of the franchises in the US can fetch for their dockets.

Also should be noted that in the Canadian arenas, lunch's or combo food packs aren't included, neither is parking and the restuarants etc..all contribute to further revenue. (MTS or TNSE have plans for all of it plus condos etc...) anyway just focus on tickets for now and forget that at the ACC the average person spends $22.00 for one beer or say 10,000 beers per game sold at $22.00 for an additional $220,000 per game or 41 regular season games is 9 million burp! Playoff revenue is a bonus too and if you aren't making it that really impacts profit...only 16 of 30 do so 14 are cut out of the yearly playoff bonus picture or exit in the first round and can't fully capitalize.

But Phoenix, with only $18.4 in gate revenue, only played three games in Phoenix. Tampa Bay, Carolina, Dallas, the Islanders, Atlanta, Anaheim, and St. Louis, all teams that made less than $30 million in ticket sales during the regular season, missed out on the playoffs. That means a lot of red ink.

Point here is look at the bottom feeders and tell me that attendance means something when we kn ow it doesn't....what you make at the gate is what counts and look where all the Canadian teams are...not hard top figure that Winnipeg would pull in a million per game in ticket revenue and double the yearly gross of the Thrashers or Coyotes...that's an extra 20+ million per year in just ticket sales....

I think it will work and work very well in the Peg!

Check out this site:

http://threehundredeight.blogspot.com/2010/06/nhl-gate-revenues.html


Shows Toronto on top with 92.8 million in ticket revenue
2Montreal 63
3Philly 48.3
4Vancouver 47.9
5Calgary 47.2
6Minnesota 46.3
7NY Rangers 43.4
8Edmonton 41.2
9Chicago 41
10Ottawa 39.5
24Atlanta 27.1
30Phoenix 18.4



Silly move COG!

 

[kdb209]

There are some interesting stats that we can all dig up but one truth remains, Canadian teams can and do charge way more for tickets than most of the franchises in the US can fetch for their dockets.

Also should be noted that in the Canadian arenas, lunch's or combo food packs aren't included, neither is parking and the restuarants etc..all contribute to further revenue. (MTS or TNSE have plans for all of it plus condos etc...) anyway just focus on tickets for now and forget that at the ACC the average person spends $22.00 for one beer or say 10,000 beers per game sold at $22.00 for an additional $220,000 per game or 41 regular season games is 9 million burp! Playoff revenue is a bonus too and if you aren't making it that really impacts profit...only 16 of 30 do so 14 are cut out of the yearly playoff bonus picture or exit in the first round and can't fully capitalize.

But Phoenix, with only $18.4 in gate revenue, only played three games in Phoenix. Tampa Bay, Carolina, Dallas, the Islanders, Atlanta, Anaheim, and St. Louis, all teams that made less than $30 million in ticket sales during the regular season, missed out on the playoffs. That means a lot of red ink.

Point here is look at the bottom feeders and tell me that attendance means something when we kn ow it doesn't....what you make at the gate is what counts and look where all the Canadian teams are...not hard top figure that Winnipeg would pull in a million per game in ticket revenue and double the yearly gross of the Thrashers or Coyotes...that's an extra 20+ million per year in just ticket sales....

I think it will work and work very well in the Peg!

Check out this site:

http://threehundredeight.blogspot.com/2010/06/nhl-gate-revenues.html


Shows Toronto on top with 92.8 million in ticket revenue
2Montreal 63
3Philly 48.3
4Vancouver 47.9
5Calgary 47.2
6Minnesota 46.3
7NY Rangers 43.4
8Edmonton 41.2
9Chicago 41
10Ottawa 39.5
24Atlanta 27.1
30Phoenix 18.4



Silly move COG!

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

Take those numbers with a HUGE grain of salt.

All that blog did was take the discredited Team Markeing Report avg ticket price numbers and multiplied by the official announced attendances (tickets distributed, not tickets sold).

 

[tarheelhockey]

Agreed that is a different plan which has no bearing on todays Revenue Sharing.

True, but there's a lesson to be learned about our point of view.

1970s - The league, in expansion mode, enters the booming Atlanta market for the first time with moderate success.

1980s - Calgary, in the middle on an oil boom, inherits the Flames franchise.

1990s - Calgary on life support from the league, Atlanta booms and gets a second team. Winnipeg and Quebec lose their teams.

2010s - Atlanta on life support, Winnipeg and Quebec jockeying to get a new team.

2020s - ????

I don't disagree with Winnipeg as a destination, but I'm not convinced that the wheels of history are just going to stop moving and this cycle won't repeat itself.

 

[Jet]

True, but there's a lesson to be learned about our point of view.

1970s - The league, in expansion mode, enters the booming Atlanta market for the first time with moderate success.

1980s - Calgary, in the middle on an oil boom, inherits the Flames franchise.

1990s - Calgary on life support from the league, Atlanta booms and gets a second team. Winnipeg and Quebec lose their teams.

2010s - Atlanta on life support, Winnipeg and Quebec jockeying to get a new team.

2020s - ????

I don't disagree with Winnipeg as a destination, but I'm not convinced that the wheels of history are just going to stop moving and this cycle won't repeat itself.

There are a couple of differences this time:

A> in 10 years MTS Centre will still be serviceable, and not outdated. The established SHED will be generating revenue for the team and ownership. The ownership (barring a miraculous collapse) will still be filthy rich, and will have the incentive of keeping the NHL team to drive SHED revenues.

You have to analyze all the factors to see if history will likely repeat itself. This time, Winnipeg is on much more solid ground.

 

[New User Name]

No I dont't think Atlanta is top 20 in Revenue and they don't receive full RS either maybe even none since they are in a huge media market. But to instantly say if they were moved to Winnipeg they would become top 15 every year in Revenue is also false is it not. Everyone spouting out these "a Winnipeg team would pay into the system" claims is irresponsible and not true unless the ticket prices are in the range I quoted. Thump your chest be proud to be Canadian but give me facts and not speculation.

The league was so quick to announce the pittance (compared to today's RS) some Canadian teams received under the Canadian assistance plan; now the shoes on the other foot and Gary issues a gag order.

I can still hear Caps owner Leonis saying "I'm paying welfare to Canadian teams" Yet, now, seeing he has received RS, he's strangely quiet.

 

[William Satterwhite]

In regards to the teams you mentioned, its nice to see they have improved. But if you look closely at the bottom you will see the team this thread is based on, and I'm sure 4 years later they are in the same place.

This is true but looking closely at the numbers, I think it also clearly shows the strong potential for growth for a team in Atlanta with a well run organization. 07-08 shows a 10% increase from the previous season and had the Thrashers at the exact same level as Washington, this was the season after the Thrashers lone playoff appearance and shows if the team had been able to build off of that success in any way, revenues would have most likely continued on an upward track as revenues actually increased in that disastrous 07-08 season despite attendance going down.

 

[Fourier]

Have any Proof?? Since Edmonton claims to be losing money it's conceivable they aren't top 15 is it not??? Of Course the media is reporting that no Canadian team has ever received a dime in RS and are footing the bill for the undeserving 24 (repeat a lie long enough)
What's wrong with admitting they possibly received money???
FACT: No ones has any better number than I do and it's all speculation!!!
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Oilers+want+arena+revenue/1987348/story.html

If I thought there was any chance that the Oilers were getting revenue sharing I would have no problem admitting it. The NHL CBA gives revenue sharing money to the bottom half of the league. A franchise can be stable, well run and still receive revenue sharing. (See your own Preds as an example.)

And I actually believe that the Oilers did lose money when Laforge made those comments. (though very unlikley that they are losing money now given their payroll and the level of the dollar.) But we're not just pulling this out of the air. We have a lot of data on the revenue side of the equation. In particular, actual leaked gate receipts from which we can still extrapolate a fair bit. And we have played around with these numbers more than a little.

Take a look here:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=817928

 

[saillias]

I would not take what Oilers management is saying right now at full value as they have their own agenda to push at the moment and that is getting a new arena built.

I don't know why their President is bringing up Calgary, trying to shove the Flames into the issue... Speak for yourselves, We're more than fine, thanks.