ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

[BraveCanadian]

The Gap in first units is huge. Ramsey is way out of element in this and will be an obvious advantage for the Fireworks.

TDMM: I would love to hear thoughts regarding 1st units:

Olmstead-Sittler-Geoffrion
Robinson-Stanley

vs

Gillies-Trottier-Middleton
Lapointe-Ramsey

Yes Trottier has the obvious advatage over Sittler, but in every other position the fireworks have the obvious advantage.

Trottier is the best player in the entire series. And it helps that he was remarkably good and consistent in the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The Gap in first units is huge. Ramsey is way out of element in this and will be an obvious advantage for the Fireworks.

TDMM: I would love to hear thoughts regarding 1st units:

Olmstead-Sittler-Geoffrion
Robinson-Stanley

vs

Gillies-Trottier-Middleton
Lapointe-Ramsey

Yes Trottier has the obvious advatage over Sittler, but in every other position the fireworks have the obvious advantage.

I hate making public conclusions about series I'm not involved in but:

-You obviously have the advantage in 4/5 overall positions that you listed, BUT that's not really the best way to look at it.

-Goaltending should be included as part of a first unit comparison.

-In the two most important positions (#1 center and #1 defenseman), he has a large edge and you have a moderate edge. Then you have a small edge at LW, moderate edge at RW, and moderate+ edge at #2 D. Goaltending had already been discussed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where is a well known/respected list where Parent is rated more highly?

A minority of the posters who actually did the HOH top 100 list had Parent ahead. Yes, the were the minority, but I still find their lists credible.

 

[BraveCanadian]

A minority of the posters who actually did the HOH top 100 list had Parent ahead. Yes, the were the minority, but I still find their lists credible.

Well then, I'd have to say that proves the prevailing wisdom is what it has always been.. Broda is better.

 

[jarek]

What is thee purpose? When you build a team with Trottier as your first pick most likely you plan on using 1st line against first line. What is the benefit of having a pure defensive line when they arent even going to be used to shut down a 1st line?

It would make a lot more sense to build at least a two-way 3rd line who are able to contribute offensively. This 3rd line wont produce offensively at all.

You made the same argument in your last series, where there WAS a need for a defensive third line from your opponent.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You made the same argument in your last series, where there WAS a need for a defensive third line from your opponent.

I don't think mark's argument about the lack of scoring from LF's 3rd line was unfair. I mean, having a pure checking line can work for you, but it's true they won't score much.

My biggest issue with BC's 3rd line honestly is that I have no idea what the Russian brings other than grit.

 

[seventieslord]

Broda is celebrated as one of the best "money" goalies of all time. You'd have to give an AWFUL lot of value to 2 Conn Smythe cup wins to have those 2 wins be TWO POINT FIVE TIMES more valuable than Broda's incredible play, supported by anecdotes, in 5 separate Cup wins.

- Who says Broda was "incredible" in all 5 cup wins?
- Do you think cups in larger, more modern and more competitive leagues are inherently worth just as much as in the past, when assessing a career?

Yeah, hyperbole that Broda is better than Parent in an ATD draft sense when he has been throughout hockey history until this moment.

THN Top 100: Broda 60, Parent 63
HOH Top 100 (2009): Broda 59, Parent 70+?
THN Top Players by position (although I admit that I don't like THN much any longer): Broda 10, Parent 11.

Wow, so conclusive.

Broda was virtually unbeatable when facing elimination or in OT in the playoffs:

No.

A quick look at his record on hockey-reference.com proves otherwise. (he was 0-4 in the 1937 and 1952 playoffs but he was not Toronto's only goalie and the HSP isn't updated for those years for me to see if he was involved in any OT or elimination so I left those years out)

He is 15-9 in OT. that is very good. Not legendary or "unbeatable", but very good.

He was 4-6 in elimination games. And all four of those wins came in the 1943 final against Detroit. Broda never won an elimination game aside from that series.

- Greatest Hockey Legends

You just quoted a blogger. He knows his stuff but his credibility is no better than yours or mine.

- Maurice Richard said after the 1951 series where all 5 games went to OT.

This is a good start. You are about 10% of the way there, as far as outlining the superlatives about Broda's play to the point where the case is as strong as Parent's 1974... and then there is still 1975.

 

[seventieslord]

Mark, you better ******* remember this the next time you think I am biased, flip flopping, or being political.

I just calls it as I sees it, bro.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pelletier is a blogger, but he's a neutral one, so for that reason alone, he's more credible than any one poster here (except for specific instances where he was proven wrong).

As for Broda, I'm most impressed by the fact that his defense was quite unimpressive relative to other dynasties and he still put up the numbers he did.

 

[seventieslord]

Pelletier is a blogger, but he's a neutral one, so for that reason alone, he's more credible than any one poster here (except for specific instances where he was proven wrong).

As for Broda, I'm most impressed by the fact that his defense was quite unimpressive relative to other dynasties and he still put up the numbers he did.

I agree this is true; however, it is also very true for Parent.

As for the deeper all-star results, I am aware we can't substantiate Broda's greatness in seasons in which he was not a postseason all-star due to the lack of info.

But Knowing that Parent was regarded that highly in different years is a plus, one that we can't really give to Broda. It's unfair in a way, but a lot of things are.

Those five times 4th/5th in the 1970s are about as valuable as five 3rds in the six-goalie era... maybe more.

 

[seventieslord]

Oh yeah, and I am neutral too. I don't give a crap who wins this series and I don't even have a favourite in the series, to be honest. If you think I am pro-Parent because I just had him last draft, you are mistaken.

 

[markrander87]

You made the same argument in your last series, where there WAS a need for a defensive third line from your opponent.

You really are simple arent you. In the last series LF was not matching his first line against mine.

 

[markrander87]

Mark, you better ******* remember this the next time you think I am biased, flip flopping, or being political.

I just calls it as I sees it, bro.

I appreciate it seventies it feels nice to have some posters agrre with me.

 

[vecens24]

I don't understand the bickering back and forth over these two to be honest. The difference between the two of them is so small I can't see it tipping this series one way or another. Parent or Broda, no matter which one you have you're going to be getting great goaltending that's damn close to being equal.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Mark, you better ******* remember this the next time you think I am biased, flip flopping, or being political.

I just calls it as I sees it, bro.

List 20

Rank | Player | Pos
65| Turk Broda |G
69| Bernie Parent |G

Voting By Round

Round | Rank 1 | Rank 2 | Rank 3 | Rank 4 | Rank 5 | Rank 6 | Rank 7
1|Wayne Gretzky|Gordie Howe|Bobby Orr|Mario Lemieux
2|Eddie Shore|Bobby Hull|Doug Harvey|Maurice Richard|Patrick Roy|Jean Believeau
3|Patrick Roy|Dominik Hasek|Ray Bourque|Stan Mikita|Denis Potvin
4|Patrick Roy|Denis Potvin|Glenn Hall|Phil Esposito|Terry Sawchuk
5|Glenn Hall|Bryan Trottier|Bobby Clarke|Jaromir Jagr|Mark Messier
6|Bryan Trottier|Mike Bossy|Nicklas Lidstrom|Larry Robinson|Newsy Lalonde
7|Chris Chelios|Joe Sakic|Ken Dryden|Larry Robinson|Bernie Geoffrion
8|Syl Apps, Sr.|Chris Chelios|Steve Yzerman|Charlie Conacher|Ken Dryden
9|Chris Chelios|Cyclone Taylor|Charlie Conacher|Bill Cook|Frank Mahovlich
10|Max Bentley|Pierre Pilote|Dit Clapper|Paul Coffey|Marcel Dionne
11|Pierre Pilote|King Clancy|Dit Clapper| Turk Broda |Dickie Moore
12|Henri Richard|Tim Horton|Brett Hull|Jari Kurri|Turk Broda
13|Clint Benedict|Cy Denneny|Brett Hull|Jari Kurri|Earl Seibert|Peter Stastny|Nels Stewart
14|Frank Brimsek|Johnny Bower|Peter Stastny|Aurel Joliat|Johnny Bucyk|Elmer Lach|Ted Kennedy
15|Johnny Bower|Johnny Bucyk|Dave Keon| Bernie Parent |Elmer Lach|Toe Blake|Bill Cowley
16|Borje Salming|Johnny Bucyk|Anatoli Firsov|Bill Gadsby|Gilbert Perreault|Dave Keon
17|Busher Jackson|Scott Stevens|Sid Abel|Doug Bentley|Billy Smith|Ron Francis
18|Frank Nighbor|Billy Smith|Alex Delvecchio|Serge Savard|Norm Ullman|Valeri Vasiliev

So apparently it changes once you have a guy in the ATD?

I guess Parent did a lot in the last couple years besides be drafted by you?

Listen, if you guys want to piss in the wind of prevailing wisdom, be my guest.

It isn't up to me to prove prevailing wisdom is incorrect, it is yours.

 

[markrander87]

To recap:

Negatives against Guelph:

No Goal scorer to take advantage of Trottiers playmaking
No playmaker on the 2nd line
What purpose does Ogrodnick serve?
The 3rd line gives zero secondary scoring
What is Lebedevs purpose on this line?
Ramsey is the worst to defenseman in the ATD
Very underwhelming PP units

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree this is true; however, it is also very true for Parent.

As for the deeper all-star results, I am aware we can't substantiate Broda's greatness in seasons in which he was not a postseason all-star due to the lack of info.

But Knowing that Parent was regarded that highly in different years is a plus, one that we can't really give to Broda. It's unfair in a way, but a lot of things are.

Those five times 4th/5th in the 1970s are about as valuable as five 3rds in the six-goalie era... maybe more.

I completely disagree. You're basically saying that goalies who played after we have full voting records are better because we have full voting record for them. Parent's record does a great job of beefing up his resume past those two great years, buy really isn't directly comparable across eras.

The bottom half goalies in the 70s were an unimpressive lot. Two of the top 5 goalies in the world were playing in Europe. I think it's unclear whether Parent or Broda faced more competition for their spots at the top. Obviously Parent had more goalies in the league who theoretically had a greater chance of being a flash in the pan, bit did that actually happen?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Those five times 4th/5th in the 1970s are about as valuable as five 3rds in the six-goalie era... maybe more.

If the competition is equal, which we know especially in the 70s, it wasn't.

 

[markrander87]

I don't understand the bickering back and forth over these two to be honest. The difference between the two of them is so small I can't see it tipping this series one way or another. Parent or Broda, no matter which one you have you're going to be getting great goaltending that's damn close to being equal.

Agreed

I've said from the start they are a wash. They are way too close to try and give an advantage either way.

I think BC is keeping it going to negate the attention of other things like the purpose of his 3rd line.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So apparently it changes once you have a guy in the ATD?

I guess Parent did a lot in the last couple years besides be drafted by you?

Listen, if you guys want to piss in the wind of prevailing wisdom, be my guest.

It isn't up to me to prove prevailing wisdom is incorrect, it is yours.

Retroactive save percentage wasn't available for the 1970s in 2008 when 70s made that list. And we all know how much he (over?)values the stat. I don't agree with 70s here, but there is zero hypocrisy in the change of his mind.

Anyway, I agree with vecens that this is becoming a distraction.

 

[vecens24]

Agreed

I've said from the start they are a wash. They are way too close to try and give an advantage either way.

I think BC is keeping it going to negate the attention of other things like the purpose of his 3rd line.

Yeah honestly to me there are quite a few other factors in my mind besides the goaltending that are tipping this series in one direction for me at the moment (not going to say which). Who cares which goalie is better when you're talking about the difference between the 10th and 11th best goalie of all time (or somewhere around there).

 

[BraveCanadian]

To recap:

Negatives against Guelph:

No Goal scorer to take advantage of Trottiers playmaking

Rick Middleton much? 50 goal scoring Trottier? 6 time 30 goal scorer Gillies? Lapointe?

No playmaker on the 2nd line

AGAIN. MacLeish can create and finish his own plays. Robert has 4 top 20s in assists and was on pace for more.

What purpose does Ogrodnick serve?

He has almost as many playoff goals playing primarily for the Dead Wings than your whole second line. You do the math.

The 3rd line gives zero secondary scoring

Again, that is fine since they will be shutting down your third line which features a couple of offensive players and leaves my second line to run rampant over yours.

What is Lebedevs purpose on this line?

Again, to wear you down and tear you down.

Ramsey is the worst to defenseman in the ATD

Again, he complements his partner well and is being underrated.

Very underwhelming PP units

I don't believe so.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't understand the bickering back and forth over these two to be honest. The difference between the two of them is so small I can't see it tipping this series one way or another. Parent or Broda, no matter which one you have you're going to be getting great goaltending that's damn close to being equal.

I agree they are very close. I think it's ridiculous that one GM is trying to claim some huge edge in goaltending. That's what I am really taking exception to.

So apparently it changes once you have a guy in the ATD?

I guess Parent did a lot in the last couple years besides be drafted by you?
.

The operative words, of course, being "couple years"... actually, I'm pretty sure it's been almost 3 and a half years since I sent that list... and the round by round voting records are meaningless because I could only vote for players who were up for voting. nice one.

TDMM also covered it pretty well. Besides the sv% being huge for Parent, I was sold over a year ago on the fact that it's even more impressive considering the overabundance of powerplays he faced.

I completely disagree. You're basically saying that goalies who played after we have full voting records are better because we have full voting record for them. Parent's record does a great job of beefing up his resume past those two great years, buy really isn't directly comparable across eras.

So what do you propose? It's something, unless we're comparing to an older goalie where records don't exist?

The bottom half goalies in the 70s were an unimpressive lot. Two of the top 5 goalies in the world were playing in Europe. I think it's unclear whether Parent or Broda faced more competition for their spots at the top. Obviously Parent had more goalies in the league who theoretically had a greater chance of being a flash in the pan, bit did that actually happen?

Even if it didn't, the likelihood was still there just by virtue of there being more goalies. So it is a credit to Parent that he transcended the larger league size and was still individually recognized more.

If the competition is equal, which we know especially in the 70s, it wasn't.

Uh, what? We're comparing the 70s to the 40s here, bro! The only decade worse than the 70s was the 40s.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Retroactive save percentage wasn't available for the 1970s in 2008 when 70s made that list. And we all know how much he (over?)values the stat. I don't agree with 70s here, but there is zero hypocrisy in the change of his mind.

Anyway, I agree with vecens that this is becoming a distraction.

And how does Parent's retro sv% compare to Broda that made this revelation possible?

 

[vecens24]

One thing I dont like you saying BC is that Robert was "on pace" for more. Otherwise I can say: Oh, Henrik Sedin has a good resume already, plus he's on pace for a couple more top 5 assists seasons.