ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

[markrander87]

So you admit, they do HAVE playoff numbers though.




Your opinion. The problem is you think that each piece has to beat each piece.

I made a team.

1st line overall I would give you an edge offensively but defensively I don't give you much (if anything I'm better) and physically you're possibly overmatched by Gillies and Trottier. Trottier is going to be a big factor.

2nd line we have you coming and going in the playoffs, my line is going to have a heyday.

3rd line, mine is designed to defend and grind down yours which is good because you probably have better playoff performers on your third line than your 2nd.

4th line, our line will generate offense against yours with its overall speed vs. only Meagher and he will be a physical mismatch against Arnott. Vaive could make a difference in this series here.

1st pairing you have a an edge, in that I would call it Robinson - Lapointe - Stanley - Ramsey, but again my pair complements one another very well and since they will be playing primarily with Gillies/Trottier/Middleton they will also have tons of support.

2nd pairing I think you overrate your side vastly. Smith is a physical monster defensively with some two way ability and Desjardins is very cerebral and solid both ways and twice a post season allstar. easy edge for Guelph. Desjardins will be the best player on either pairing, in my opinion, unless you count racking up gold medals against amateurs very highly. Secondly your pairing is very small and could be beaten or worn down along the boards by the kind of grinding team I have.

3rd pairing my Ruotsalainen > Schneider as a puckmoving talent and he doesn't have the poison in the dressing room. And Macoun a few people have said they think could play second pairing as a defensive defenseman in this.. easy edge for Guelph.

Goaltending is an easy edge for us as well. Broda is a legendary playoff performer and, while Parent's peak is impressive, in an ATD sense Broda looms pretty large here. And contrary to your opinion, you can try to prove otherwise if you want to disprove the canon but I'll let it speak for itself.

Coaching - Large advantage for Guelph since I consider Arbour one of the absolute best of all time and the leadership group that I have on this team suits him to a T.

Good luck!

There is so much fail in this I don't know where to start. I'll have to get back to this in the morning but by far the biggest difference in our teams is the ENORMOUS edge my top defensive pairing has over yours. Its really not even close.


Robinson is the best player in the series and Stanley is lightyears ahead of Ramsey.

You are vastly underrating the duo of Davydov-Kuzkin

Davydov was selected as the 3rd best Russian olympic hockey player of all-time and Kuzkin was his real life partner and captain of the solviets for the 72 Summit Series. If he could handle those players your trio of scrubs of a 2nd line is no issue

3rd line provides zero offense, so whats your plan? You obviously intend on being hemned in your own end whenever these lines are out as they can "grind" all they want who will put the puck in the net?

Its pretty obvious my 2nd and 3rd lne will provide a lot more secondary scoring then yours.

 

[markrander87]

This question is for all the other GM's....


Why would you ever build an all defensive 3rd line on a team where you have Trottier as your number one center?

Clearly he plans on matching 1st lines what is the point of building a 3rd line like that? It was a rookie mistake which in the end will extremly cost his team and reduced the amount of secondary scoring his team will get.

Also for 2nd lines he has the worst constructed 2nd line remaining in the playoffs

Clark Gillies is the worst offensive 1st liner in the ATD

Ramsey is the worst top pairing defenseman left in the ATD


How can a team with all of these obvious holes move on to the next round?

Not to mention is far below average special teams.

 

[Leafs Forever]

-I personally wouldn't, but then defensive teams do exist. You clearly want offense from your 3rd lines, but there are many ways to build a team.

-To make a defensive team.

-Would have to look around to be sure of that one.

-That's a stretch on Gilles offense.. Clark Gilles is overrated I fine, but he's not that bad offensively considering some of the top liners that made it to the show; heck, my formerly own Dave Taylor for example.

-Quite possibly on Ramsey.

 

[seventieslord]

After the Leafs came back from a 3-0 deficit in the famous finals series against Detroit, Jack Adams (their coach) said that "Broda hasn't got a nerve in his body. He could tend goal in a tornado and never blink an eye."

If it's significant that he won 4 games in a row, than it's almost as significant that he lost 3 in a row. It's a trivia answer, really. Point is that he won a series 4 games to 3, and won the Stanley Cup.

I'm still going to need some selling on Mike Ramsey seeing top pairing minutes in an ATD thats for sure. John Ogrodnick is as big as "bargain basement" as you are going to get for a 2nd line ATD'r. I think he did not fit the line well and a player with more grit or at least some playmaking was inorder to play with the already shoot first dup of Macleish and Robert. Who is the puckwinner for that line?

This is a very legitimate concern.

How is Broda a notch better? Regardless if there were Conn Smythes or not Parent won two of them and you have no proof showing that says Broda would have even won one?

The SIHR/HHOF retro smythe project awarded him one.

Gary Roberts is one of the worst spares in the draft probably, but he is still a spare. He'd be an super-ultimate tiebreaker at the end of the day.

You kidding me?

Of course he wouldn't be a super-ultimate tiebreaker, because if it actually came down to that you would be comparing him to the other team's 25th pick, either an assistant coach or a player likely to get into a couple of games in the series as a fill-in. Roberts won't have that impact. He's thus far had literally no track record in the role for which he was drafted.

What proof do you have that he wasn't? They were both ace in the playoffs, but you'll probably find most historians have Broda listed at least a little ahead of Parent in both playoffs and regular season.

This one doesn't.

Who would put Broda ahead in the regular season? His numbers and his all-star/Hart recognition are not as impressive as Parent's, with era considered. Yes, in the playoffs, the gap shrinks considerably. I would honestly still take Parent in the playoffs but I know opinions will vary on that.

 

[Sturminator]

This is a very legitimate concern.

Which part? Puckwinning on the second line? Rene Robert was a fine puckwinner. Chemistry on the second line with no obvious playmaker? Yeah, that may be an issue.

 

[seventieslord]

Which part? Puckwinning on the second line? Rene Robert was a fine puckwinner. Chemistry on the second line with no obvious playmaker? Yeah, that may be an issue.

Yes, the lack of an obvious playmaker.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Why would you ever build an all defensive 3rd line on a team where you have Trottier as your number one center?

Because some teams, unlike yours, actually have a second scoring line. In this case your third line is more dangerous than your second so they will play against them.

Also for 2nd lines he has the worst constructed 2nd line remaining in the playoffs

I'd put forth that you have the worst 2nd line in the whole ATD as soon as the playoffs started.

As far as my second line playmaking Robert was top 20 in assists 4 times and on pace a couple of others that he missed 10-12 games. MacLeish is also decent.

Clark Gillies is the worst offensive 1st liner in the ATD

He is also strong defensively and unmatched physically by any 1st liner left.

Ramsey is the worst top pairing defenseman left in the ATD

That may be true in an individual sense but he was definitely a very solid defenseman and the type of guy I needed to play with Lapointe.

How can a team with all of these obvious holes move on to the next round?

It may have something to do with the fact that you stacked your top line and first pairing but the drop off from there is quite rapid.

Your second pairing in particular is two midgets that my team is going to exploit physically at every turn.

Not to mention is far below average special teams.

Far below average.. do you ever talk in anything other than unsubstantiated hyperbole?

 

[markrander87]

So far after all of this discussion BC always brings up my second line. That's it!


Accoring to his arguement a guy like Rick Nash would serve no value to a playoff team in the current NHL. This arguement is bs.

My 2nd line is miles ahead of yours inregards to chemistry and offensive production in the regular season. What is your theory, they just stop playing in the playoffs?? I'm not sure where you are going with this.

Your 2nd line playmaking is beyond poor, Ramsey is not ATD 1st unit calibre at all even in a 60 team league and for starters that 3rd line still serves no purpose they are no threat to score at all.

How will Vaive be a factor he'll play what 6 ES minutes a game? Spare me.

Broda and Parent are two of the best playoff goalies of all time, if your trying to find some sort of edge there it's pretty obvious your grasping at straws.

Regarding the 1st line, didnt Trottier always play with Bossy? Would Middleton even be looked upon as a average goal scorer for a first line im not sure, either way who will be scoring the goals to take advantage of Trottiers playmaking.

You already refered to Middleton as being a playmaker for your pp so I guess Gillies will be the shooter on your first line?????


There is no pure goal scorer on the 1st line to benefit from Trottiers obvious playmaking bias

 

[BraveCanadian]

So far after all of this discussion BC always brings up my second line. That's it!

Accoring to his arguement a guy like Rick Nash would serve no value to a playoff team in the current NHL. This arguement is bs.

Rick Nash is a complete unknown / completely underwhelming playoff performer too!

No it isn't a bs argument. See Dionne, Thornton et al. for other examples of players who looked pretty good in the regular season but get maligned for their playoff performances.

Broda and Parent are two of the best playoff goalies of all time, if your trying to find some sort of edge there it's pretty obvious your grasping at straws.

Broda is clearly better in an ATD sense. Any ranking of goaltenders by a remotely credible source will have him higher in overall value.

Regarding the 1st line, didnt Trottier always play with Bossy? Would Middleton even be looked upon as a average goal scorer for a first line im not sure, either way who will be scoring the goals to take advantage of Trottiers playmaking.

Hmmm.. how about Trottier himself.. or Rick Middleton who is depressingly underrated by you because obviously you never saw him play.

You already refered to Middleton as being a playmaker for your pp so I guess Gillies will be the shooter on your first line?????

There is no pure goal scorer on the 1st line to benefit from Trottiers obvious playmaking bias

Do you even read before spouting this blathering nonsense?

Lapointe and Trottier would be the two main playmakers on that powerplay obviously. Middleton off the half boards on his off wing is a great setup for him though because he is quite creative and has deadly accurate shots.

Middleton and Vaive on our first unit are more than capable snipers. Both are multiple 40-50 goal men with crazy shooting percentages.

And that is before you put Lapointe in there with multiple 20 goal seasons and being one of the better quarterbacks available.

And THEN you can add in that Trottier is himself a multiple 40 goal peak 50 goal scorer. Or do you assume that he can only pass and only one person (the pure goalscorer) ever scores on a powerplay?

Fantasy land. If anything my powerplay will benefit from the fact that you can't just take away the shooting lane from the "pure goalscorer" and negate half the threat.

 

[seventieslord]

Broda is clearly better in an ATD sense. Any ranking of goaltenders by a remotely credible source will have him higher in overall value. .

It is FAR from clear! You are criticizing mark for talking in hyperbole but the above is just that.

Parent's regular season resume is better. Aside from his two very dominant 1st ASTs, he was voted in the top-5 five other times. He was also significantly above the league average in save% almost every single season he played despite the massive PK disadvantage playing with the Flyers.

The 70s are not the greatest era in NHL history, but the 40s are the worst, and that's the era in which Broda played. What's better? 1-1-4-4-5-5-5 (with one of the 4 and 5 being just 9 and 6 voting points) in the 1970s, or 1-1-2 in the 1940s?

Parent's Hart voting record of 2nd and 4th in the 1970s is also stronger than Broda's. Broda was 4th in 1947, but he only received 4 votes so it wasn't exactly a dominant performance.

In the playoffs, Broda is much much closer or even ahead. But let's be careful not to just say "it's 5 stanley cups to 2, therefore Broda wins". We don't have sv% to get a better idea statistically of how he performed, but his low playoff GAA is at least a start. With Parent, we do have sv% and we can see these were two of the most dominant post-expansion playoff performances ever. If you check my last bio of him, the praise from teammates and opponents alike was overwhelming, with words like "singlehandedly" thrown around. I realize Broda is credited with being a "money goalie" but I haven't seen the same degree of superlatives in his favour. On the other hand, he did win 5 cups.

In my mind:

(two Stanley Cups in the 1970s with a team of scrubs, that came with two real conn Smythes, statistically supported as very dominant, and universally applauded by teammates, opponents and observers) = (five Stanley cups in the 1940s with a strong team, one of which was awarded a "retro" smythe, the other four of which he likely played at least very well in, statistically supported by GAA, with a few good quotes as well)

YMMV.

 

[jarek]

I'm still looking for an explanation from mark as to why defensive third lines serve no purpose.

 

[jarek]

Broda is celebrated as one of the best "money" goalies of all time. You'd have to give an AWFUL lot of value to 2 Conn Smythe cup wins to have those 2 wins be TWO POINT FIVE TIMES more valuable than Broda's incredible play, supported by anecdotes, in 5 separate Cup wins.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes, the lack of an obvious playmaker.

I think MacLeish-Robert is perfecftly fine. MacLeish seems like a guy who got goals on individual effort and Robert can certainly battle for the puck and get it to him. Ogrodnick is the guy who looks to be relatively ineffective without a true playmaker.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It is FAR from clear! You are criticizing mark for talking in hyperbole but the above is just that.

Parent's regular season resume is better. Aside from his two very dominant 1st ASTs, he was voted in the top-5 five other times. He was also significantly above the league average in save% almost every single season he played despite the massive PK disadvantage playing with the Flyers.

The 70s are not the greatest era in NHL history, but the 40s are the worst, and that's the era in which Broda played. What's better? 1-1-4-4-5-5-5 (with one of the 4 and 5 being just 9 and 6 voting points) in the 1970s, or 1-1-2 in the 1940s?

Parent's Hart voting record of 2nd and 4th in the 1970s is also stronger than Broda's. Broda was 4th in 1947, but he only received 4 votes so it wasn't exactly a dominant performance.

In the playoffs, Broda is much much closer or even ahead. But let's be careful not to just say "it's 5 stanley cups to 2, therefore Broda wins". We don't have sv% to get a better idea statistically of how he performed, but his low playoff GAA is at least a start. With Parent, we do have sv% and we can see these were two of the most dominant post-expansion playoff performances ever. If you check my last bio of him, the praise from teammates and opponents alike was overwhelming, with words like "singlehandedly" thrown around. I realize Broda is credited with being a "money goalie" but I haven't seen the same degree of superlatives in his favour. On the other hand, he did win 5 cups.

In my mind:

(two Stanley Cups in the 1970s with a team of scrubs, that came with two real conn Smythes, statistically supported as very dominant, and universally applauded by teammates, opponents and observers) = (five Stanley cups in the 1940s with a strong team, one of which was awarded a "retro" smythe, the other four of which he likely played at least very well in, statistically supported by GAA, with a few good quotes as well)

YMMV.

Yeah, hyperbole that Broda is better than Parent in an ATD draft sense when he has been throughout hockey history until this moment.

THN Top 100: Broda 60, Parent 63
HOH Top 100 (2009): Broda 59, Parent 70+?
THN Top Players by position (although I admit that I don't like THN much any longer): Broda 10, Parent 11.

Broda 5 Cups including 3 in dynasty and impeccable resume as a money goalie.

Parent 2 Cups and 2 Conn Smythes, also a big money goalie.

Broda 101GP, 60W, 39L, 13SO in the playoffs.
Parent 71GP, 38W, 31L, 6SO in the playoffs.

Broda was virtually unbeatable when facing elimination or in OT in the playoffs:

Detroit, Jack Adams (their coach) said that "Broda hasn't got a nerve in his body. He could tend goal in a tornado and never blink an eye."

he is without doubt one of if not the greatest money goalie of all time

- Greatest Hockey Legends

I couldn't beat him. Toe Blake couldn't. None of the Canadiens could

- Maurice Richard said after the 1951 series where all 5 games went to OT.

 

[markrander87]

I'm still looking for an explanation from mark as to why defensive third lines serve no purpose.

What is thee purpose? When you build a team with Trottier as your first pick most likely you plan on using 1st line against first line. What is the benefit of having a pure defensive line when they arent even going to be used to shut down a 1st line?

It would make a lot more sense to build at least a two-way 3rd line who are able to contribute offensively. This 3rd line wont produce offensively at all.

 

[BraveCanadian]

What is thee purpose? When you build a team with Trottier as your first pick most likely you plan on using 1st line against first line. What is the benefit of having a pure defensive line when they arent even going to be used to shut down a 1st line?

It would make a lot more sense to build at least a two-way 3rd line who are able to contribute offensively. This 3rd line wont produce offensively at all.

That is fine with me as long as they make sure yours doesn't either.

My second line will do just fine in the playoffs against yours and my fourth will generate more chances than yours too in my opinion.

If I contain your front unit with my two way unit first unit and negate your third line, I'll come out in front.

 

[markrander87]

I think MacLeish-Robert is perfecftly fine. MacLeish seems like a guy who got goals on individual effort and Robert can certainly battle for the puck and get it to him. Ogrodnick is the guy who looks to be relatively ineffective without a true playmaker.

Thats my main concern with this line. As soon as BC made the pick I questioned Ogrodnicks purpose.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Thats my main concern with this line. As soon as BC made the pick I questioned Ogrodnicks purpose.

Your main concern seems to be changing.

A little while ago MacLeish wasn't capable of creating his own plays and Robert couldn't do anything, I thought.

 

[markrander87]

That is fine with me as long as they make sure yours doesn't either.

My second line will do just fine in the playoffs against yours and my fourth will generate more chances than yours too in my opinion.

If I contain your front unit with my two way unit first unit and negate your third line, I'll come out in front.

So for roughly 18 minutes a game my 3rd line will be on the offensive and your 3rd line will try and "make sure" they don't score.

Wouldnt you want a line that has some threat to score?

 

[markrander87]

Your main concern seems to be changing.

A little while ago MacLeish wasn't capable of creating his own plays and Robert couldn't do anything, I thought.

No I said main concern. There is also the concern of playmaking as Robert has very poor Playmaking totals for a 2nd line playmaking purpose.

Again we arent talking about Mario Lemieux, this is Rick Macleish....how much of "his own" plays does one expect out of him.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So for roughly 18 minutes a game my 3rd line will be on the offensive and your 3rd line will try and "make sure" they don't score.

Wouldnt you want a line that has some threat to score?

Do you think Al Arbour is that stupid?

If you're giving your 3rd line second line minutes they are going to go up against Trottier or MacLeish at some point and get beat.

 

[markrander87]

My second line will do just fine in the playoffs against yours and my fourth will generate more chances than yours too in my opinion.

If I contain your front unit with my two way unit first unit and negate your third line, I'll come out in front.

That's a pretty big "IF"

your 4th line will see what 6 es minutes a game?

Dean Prentice who is known for his puck winning abilities will win more than his fair share of puck battles with Robert as they will be lined up against eachother.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would lean towards Broda in both regular season and playoffs, but it's awfully close. Goaltending competition in the 40s was awfully strong (minus 44 and 45), with Broda, Brimsek, and Durnan all peaking at the same time. Ken Dryden wasn't fully at his regular season peak for the first half of the 70s, correct?

I also don't think it's fair to Broda to compare full all star records, since we don't have anything below second place for the 40s, correct?

That said, the statement that "any credible list has Broda over Parent" is not only conclusory but is obviously false, even if most lists do have Broda a bit ahead.

 

[markrander87]

The Gap in first units is huge. Ramsey is way out of element in this and will be an obvious advantage for the Fireworks.

TDMM: I would love to hear thoughts regarding 1st units:

Olmstead-Sittler-Geoffrion
Robinson-Stanley

vs

Gillies-Trottier-Middleton
Lapointe-Ramsey

Yes Trottier has the obvious advatage over Sittler, but in every other position the fireworks have the obvious advantage.

 

[BraveCanadian]

That said, the statement that "any credible list has Broda over Parent" is not only conclusory but is obviously false, even of most lists do have Broda a bit ahead.

Where is a well known/respected list where Parent is rated more highly?