ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

[BraveCanadian]

Uh, what? We're comparing the 70s to the 40s here, bro! The only decade worse than the 70s was the 40s.

Yeah, except for goalies, bro!

And don't pretend you don't agree.

 

[BraveCanadian]

One thing I dont like you saying BC is that Robert was "on pace" for more. Otherwise I can say: Oh, Henrik Sedin has a good resume already, plus he's on pace for a couple more top 5 assists seasons.

Oh my god.

Can we split more hairs while piling on?

Ok, he has 4 (if I remember) top 20 in assists so he isn't absolutely terrible when combined with his puckwinning ability.

Fair enough?

 

[seventieslord]

And how does Parent's retro sv% compare to Broda that made this revelation possible?

Does it not make sense that if a criterion that I value becamse available and it favoured Parent, that I would raise my opinion of Parent slightly? There was not some "Broda Ceiling" that I wasn't allowed to raise him past because Broda didn't have sv% stats.

Yeah, except for goalies, bro!

And don't pretend you don't agree.

I don't agree. Dryden/Parent/Esposito/Vachon/Cheevers and the starts and ends of a few other good careers is not less impressive an era than Broda/Durnan/Brimsek/Rayner and some WW2 scrubs.

In addition, regardless of what we think of the goalies, the competition they played against is important. The league was never weaker than it was in the 1940s. We talk about wanting to know what players did "at the top level". The 1940s are less of a "top level" than the 1970s and yes, what they did in that era means a little less than what others did in the 1970s. We know this about all other players - goalies are not immune just because three of them dominated the all-star spots.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Does it not make sense that if a criterion that I value becamse available and it favoured Parent, that I would raise my opinion of Parent slightly? There was not some "Broda Ceiling" that I wasn't allowed to raise him past because Broda didn't have sv% stats.

How can it favour Parent when you have nothing to compare it to regarding Broda? Wow.

I don't agree. Dryden/Parent/Esposito/Vachon/Cheevers and the starts and ends of a few other good careers is not less impressive an era than Broda/Durnan/Brimsek/Rayner and some WW2 scrubs.

I don't even know what to say. If for no other reason than the availability of voting records like TDMM pointed out.

In addition, regardless of what we think of the goalies, the competition they played against is important. The league was never weaker than it was in the 1940s. We talk about wanting to know what players did "at the top level". The 1940s are less of a "top level" than the 1970s and yes, what they did in that era means a little less than what others did in the 1970s. We know this about all other players - goalies are not immune just because three of them dominated the all-star spots.

That is not true. The league in the 40s was the top level by default.

The league in the 70s was not, because there were Euros who could have played in it, and a competing league in addition.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When searching for info on Charlie Gardiner, I found that it appears the hockey establishment felt very favorably towards the 40s goalies. Basically, Gardiner was widely considered the best goalie ever (yes even better than Benedict, but that is probably unfair as the hockey establishment hated Benedict's style and his drinking problem). But then the 40s came along, and suddenly, you have guys who were "as good as Gardiner" or "may have been even better.". For whatever reason, the 40s appear to be a good decade for goaltending at the top, despite being a poor decade in overall talent.

 

[jarek]

You really are simple arent you. In the last series LF was not matching his first line against mine.

You were complaining that LF's third line, a defensive line, wasn't going to score, and for some reason you were expecting a scoring third line for some reason. You're making the same argument here. Did it ever occur to you that the same standard CANNOT be applied to every line? The line's role matters.. a lot.

 

[markrander87]

Rick Middleton much? 50 goal scoring Trottier? 6 time 30 goal scorer Gillies? Lapointe?

So Trottier will be passing himself the puck?

AGAIN. MacLeish can create and finish his own plays. Robert has 4 top 20s in assists and was on pace for more.

Macleish is not going to be skating around my players like pylons im not sure why you think he capable of this? He is not Mario Lemieux.....on pace?? who cares what he was on pace for its what happened and maybe 4 top 20's in assists is very weak.

He has almost as many playoff goals playing primarily for the Dead Wings than your whole second line. You do the math.

So Scott Gomez who has more career goals then the entire forward core of the Columbus blue Jackets would skate circles around them? For whatever reason your pretending like the regular seasons stats just didnt happen.

Again, that is fine since they will be shutting down your third line which features a couple of offensive players and leaves my second line to run rampant over yours.



Again, to wear you down and tear you down.

Lebedev is not that menacing whatsoever. Everytime our 3rd line sees the ice it will consist of scoring chances for my line because your line will produce nothing.

Again, he complements his partner well and is being underrated.

And Phil Housley compliments Larry Robinson well, it doesnt mean he deserves to be on a top pairing.

If you want to bring up "Complimenting his partner" Davydov-Kuzkin who were a mainstay together for the USSR must get massive bonus points

 

[vecens24]

TDMM, don't we think the relative talent weakness in the 40s could have contributed to making the goalies looks better than they were? That's total speculation on my part, but I would think it's at least a somewhat sensible guess.

 

[markrander87]

From a pure goal scoring basis im confident Danny Grant has more value then Clark Gillies.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

TDMM, don't we think the relative talent weakness in the 40s could have contributed to making the goalies looks better than they were? That's total speculation on my part, but I would think it's at least a somewhat sensible guess.

Definitely possible (and hey, as the owner of Charlie Gardiner who played in the strong early 30s, I like where this is going... Heh).

Seriously though, the real question becomes how much do we discount them? I don't think anyone ranks a pre-1950 goalie in their top 7 or 8 goalies of all time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

From a pure goal scoring basis im confident Danny Grant has more value then Clark Gillies.

Do you have stats to back that up?

 

[seventieslord]

How can it favour Parent when you have nothing to compare it to regarding Broda? Wow.

The "wow" is you completely missing the point.

I don't even know what to say. If for no other reason than the availability of voting records like TDMM pointed out.

So you're saying Dryden/Parent/Esposito is a lesser "top crust" compared to Durnan/Broda/Brimsek?

Vachon/Cheevers/some of Smith/Giacomin/Worsley is a lesser "next tier" than Rayner/WW2 scrubs?

That is not true. The league in the 40s was the top level by default.

The league in the 70s was not, because there were Euros who could have played in it, and a competing league in addition.

- "top level by default" - that's about all that needs to be said.

I realize the 70s themselves weren't a bad era - there was tons of talent out there, it just wasn't all in the NHL. The NHL was watered down, probably more than it ever was..... except for during the 1940s. Is that an unfair statement?

When searching for info on Charlie Gardiner, I found that it appears the hockey establishment felt very favorably towards the 40s goalies. Basically, Gardiner was widely considered the best goalie ever (yes even better than Benedict, but that is probably unfair as the hockey establishment hated Benedict's style and his drinking problem). But then the 40s came along, and suddenly, you have guys who were "as good as Gardiner" or "may have been even better.". For whatever reason, the 40s appear to be a good decade for goaltending at the top, despite being a poor decade in overall talent.

I don't know that this means much to me.

Right now, we know that today's goalies as a whole are better than the 90s goalies, and that they were better than the 80s goalies, who were better (technically speaking) than 70s goalies. That doesn't mean we don't still attempt to place everyone in terms of "all-time" value, based both on their skill level relative to their era, and the general consensus about the strength of their era.

We really have no idea if these goalies were "as good as Gardiner" simply because a decade of hockey had passed, there had been further development and they were just better in absolute terms, or if they were attempting some sort of a relative view. My guess is that it is the former. (Which doesn't preclude the latter from being true as well)

 

[seventieslord]

Definitely possible (and hey, as the owner of Charlie Gardiner who played in the strong early 30s, I like where this is going... Heh).

Seriously though, the real question becomes how much do we discount them? I don't think anyone ranks a pre-1950 goalie in their top 7 or 8 goalies of all time.

That is a good point by vecens... and yes, I have Benedict in my top-7-8, and I think that's become pretty common lately.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

90s clearly had better goaltending at the top that 00s and it isn't close. Anyway. We should probably butt out now.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So Trottier will be passing himself the puck?

Really?

Macleish is not going to be skating around my players like pylons im not sure why you think he capable of this? He is not Mario Lemieux.....on pace?? who cares what he was on pace for its what happened and maybe 4 top 20's in assists is very weak.

Not going to repeat myself about this any longer, you can go ahead and keep trying. MacLeish led two cup winners in scoring.. what did your second line do in the playoffs?? Lets have an answer.

So Scott Gomez who has more career goals then the entire forward core of the Columbus blue Jackets would skate circles around them? For whatever reason your pretending like the regular seasons stats just didnt happen.

The difference is that for some players regular season stats don't translate into post season stats. My players have post season production and/or outstanding post seasons. A proven track record.

Yours do not. And that means I have proven capability on my second line and you don't.

Lebedev is not that menacing whatsoever. Everytime our 3rd line sees the ice it will consist of scoring chances for my line because your line will produce nothing.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that my gritty Selke winning center is going to shut down the playmaking on your line, my grinding wingers are going to beat on you and wear you down, you'll spend a lot of time going back into your zone to retrieve the puck from the boards with your tiny defensemen against Mike McPhee, and you are generally not going to like playing against them

And Phil Housley compliments Larry Robinson well, it doesnt mean he deserves to be on a top pairing.

Nice exaggeration.

If you want to bring up "Complimenting his partner" Davydov-Kuzkin who were a mainstay together for the USSR must get massive bonus points

They definitely have built in chemistry but what did they do against pros?

Desjardins is the best player on either 2nd pairing.

 

[markrander87]

Do you have stats to back that up?

6 29+ goal seasons a top 4 and top 9 compared to 6 30+ goal seasons and Zero top 10's in goals.

 

[markrander87]

Really?

Yes really, who will capitalize on Trottiers Goal scoring. Geoffrion is by far the best goal scorer in this series playoffs/regular season/pre season it doesnt matter how you slice it. Your top unit goal scoring is weak

Not going to repeat myself about this any longer, you can go ahead and keep trying. MacLeish led two cup winners in scoring.. what did your second line do in the playoffs?? Lets have an answer.

How can you not understand the principle that two of them played on bad teams and did not have an opportunity to produce during there primes in the playoffs? So what we completely ignore Ronty and Litz prime seasons? Is that where you are going with this?

The difference is that for some players regular season stats don't translate into post season stats. My players have post season production and/or outstanding post seasons. A proven track record.

Yours do not. And that means I have proven capability on my second line and you don't.

Exactly and unfortunatly for you Ronty and Litzenberger did not play in the playoffs during their primes so you cant make that claim. Again what do we do completely ignore their prime seasons in the regular season against the exact same players they would have faced in the playoffs

That is your opinion. My opinion is that my Selke winning center is going to shut down the playmaking on your line, my grinding wingers are going to beat on you and wear you down, you'll spend a lot of time going back into your zone to retrieve the puck from the boards with your tiny defensemen against Mike McPhee, and you are generally not going to like playing against them

I have a selke winner on my 4th line big deal. Haha so your offense consists of me "gspending a lot of time going back into my zone to retrieve the puck" WOW

Paul Shmyr was 4th all-time in the WHA in Penalty Minutes...I dont think he will be intimidated by Mike Mcphee..

Nice exaggeration.

Do you have any valid arguement to prove Ramsey belongs on a top pairing?

They definitely have built in chemistry but what did they do against pros?

Desjardins is the best player on either 2nd pairing.

For starters Kuzkin captained team Russia in the 72 summit Series against one of the best Canada teams of all time.

Davydov is miles ahead of Desjardins. You cant penalize Davydov because of Era and Where he played. Again he was ranked as the 3rd best Russian of all-time during the Olympics and has one several first team all-star selections in the Russian league.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yes really, who will capitalize on Trottiers Goal scoring. Geoffrion is by far the best goal scorer in this series playoffs/regular season/pre season it doesnt matter how you slice it. Your top unit goal scoring is weak

I feel pretty comfortable with it actually, considering their defensive and physical game that gets added to the mix.

How can you not understand the principle that two of them played on bad teams and did not have an opportunity to produce during there primes in the playoffs? So what we completely ignore Ronty and Litz prime seasons? Is that where you are going with this?

Exactly and unfortunatly for you Ronty and Litzenberger did not play in the playoffs during their primes so you cant make that claim. Again what do we do completely ignore their prime seasons in the regular season against the exact same players they would have faced in the playoffs

How can you not understand that coulda shoulda woulda isn't as good as been there done that?

For all we know you have a line of Marleaus here.

I have a selke winner on my 4th line big deal. Haha so your offense consists of me "gspending a lot of time going back into my zone to retrieve the puck" WOW

Do you not understand what a checking line actually does in hockey?

Paul Shmyr was 4th all-time in the WHA in Penalty Minutes...I dont think he will be intimidated by Mike Mcphee..

Your bottom four are all very small. He may not be intimidated but he isn't going to push a guy like McPhee off the puck. And if he takes penalties trying to contain my checking lines cycle, then great for us.

Do you have any valid arguement to prove Ramsey belongs on a top pairing?

Sure, have a look: Mike Ramsey

For starters Kuzkin captained team Russia in the 72 summit Series against one of the best Canada teams of all time.

Davydov is miles ahead of Desjardins. You cant penalize Davydov because of Era and Where he played. Again he was ranked as the 3rd best Russian of all-time during the Olympics and has one several first team all-star selections in the Russian league.

So they beat up on amateurs, lost to an out of shape Canadian team (admittedly they were much better than anyone expected), and now he is miles ahead of a two time post season allstar. I mean I like Kuzkin's leadership reputation and all but..

I'm pretty confident I'm happy with Smith and Desjardins on my second pairing over your little guys.

 

[markrander87]

I feel pretty comfortable with it actually, considering their defensive and physical game that gets added to the mix.



How can you not understand that coulda shoulda woulda isn't as good as been there done that?

For all we know you have a line of Marleaus here.



Do you not understand what a checking line actually does in hockey?




Your bottom four are all very small. He may not be intimidated but he isn't going to push a guy like McPhee off the puck. And if he takes penalties trying to contain my checking lines cycle, then great for us.



Sure, have a look: Mike Ramsey



So they beat up on amateurs, lost to an out of shape Canadian team (admittedly they were much better than anyone expected), and now he is miles ahead of a two time post season allstar. I mean I like Kuzkin's leadership reputation and all but..

I'm pretty confident I'm happy with Smith and Desjardins on my second pairing over your little guys.

So you have already admitted your first line is weak offensively and your 3rd line is non-existant offensively....


Also what is Ramseys Norris Record....

 

[markrander87]

I honestly feel like this team is way weaker then LF's team. There are just too many question marks and they are way too dependent on the 2nd line to score goals.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So you have already admitted your first line is weak offensively and your 3rd line is non-existant offensively....

Please don't put words in my mouth. My front line is not weak offensively. Yours is better but mine should more than make that up by being much better all around, particularly at center where you'll be starting without the puck most of the time off the draw.

Also what is Ramseys Norris Record....

Outside of Langway, when was the last time a defensive defenseman won a Norris?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I honestly feel like this team is way weaker then LF's team. There are just too many question marks and they are way too dependent on the 2nd line to score goals.

Honestly, I don't know how you got past them in the first place.

I think you just keep blabbing to try and cover up the fact that you have a strong front line and pairing and a precipitous drop off after that, particularly in playoff performance.

 

[markrander87]

Ramsey has a 7th place finish in Norris Voting. That's it. Heck Schneider has a 6th and 7th.

Desjardins has a 4th and a 5th (Which were his two All-star team years) Outside of that he has nothing.


Davydov has 6 FIRST team All-stars and a second in the Russian League. What else could he have done? You say he played against a bunch of "amateurs" What else could he have possible done to prove himself? We are now punishing players because they were not able by law to play in North America?

 

[overpass]

In a 1984 NHL coaches poll, Ramsey was runner up for best defensive defenceman.

 

[markrander87]

I'm still not sure why you think your team has the massive advantage in terms of toughness either? Who are these big mean physical players?

Your team is poorly constructed, Ogrodnick was a terrible pick and added nothing to your team, Lebedev is completely out of place, Dont even get me started on Gary Roberts (I guess we dont have injuries in the ATD)

Clark Gillies in the 4th round was one of the biggest reaches in the draft. BC already admitted it as being a mistake during the draft thread.