ATD2011 Foster Hewitt Semi: (1) Minnesota Fighting Saints vs. (5) Toronto Maple Leafs

[Leafs Forever]

lindsay is considered by most to be the 2nd or 3rd best left winger of all time and bowie is what top 200?

who is miles ahead of who ?

The point is, LL, saying that Bowie is going to lose/get overpowers in this series (by E. Staal of all people, who has no defensive skills at this level) because he's "a midget" is ridiculous, just as would be saying Lindsay can't out-tough anyone because he's a dwarf. Especially when dealing with guys this old who aren't as short as they appear.

Bowie probably transltes to St. Louis/Fleury level in size in the ATD given his era. (Correct me if wrong someone who isn't LL). Small, but not ridiculously so, and certainly overcomeable, as Bowie was.

yes in many cases yes!

So Dino Ciccerelli is a better player than Doug Gilmour? Using HHOF as the sole reason one player is better as another, especially in different era's, is BS in my mind.

what do you know of beaton many players in the 1930's got paid more money to play in Britain then in the nhl.He was called the top hockey player of the first half of the last century...

Who cares if they got paid more? Doesn't change the fact that the league was far from the NHL at the time.

By who? A British media source? Pretty sure Howie Morenz caught that crown in the NHL, which is what we actually look at.

makarovs point totals were stacked against weaker competition and ellis played on the nhl's all time defensive team.

Makarov played in a completely different league and dominated in it, as he did international play. One of the finest player Russia has produced. Your bias is staggering.

 

[Leaf Lander]

I think that bowie will be over powered by Staal who isn't as bad defensively as you may point out. He is on a bad team that is made better by very tlaneted players like staal skinner and ward. He is also is the main offensive cog on his team and has lead his team to a cup

Anyones + - numbers ill be hurt by an overall poor team.

Lindsay is an all time great in his position while bowie isn't

 

[Leafs Forever]

I think that bowie will be over powered by Staal who isn't as bad defensively as you may point out. He is on a bad team that is made better by very tlaneted players like staal skinner and ward. He is also is the main offensive cog on his team and has lead his team to a cup

Anyones + - numbers ill be hurt by an overall poor team.

Lindsay is an all time great in his position while bowie isn't

He doesn't impact the ATD, with the best of the best of everything, on a defensive level.

Bowie is amongst the best 2nd line centre's in the league. Staal isn't.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Your over rating an amateur player.

I was a great pond hockey player in nova scotia back in the 1980's guess I got a shot at being drafted No one score as many goals as i did so maybe I should drafted or maybe you should since you highly regard amateur player who probably played in an out door rink just like i did

Btw what round did bowie get drafted in?

 

[seventieslord]

come on now beaukaboom shouldn't even be drafted imo
was he ever considered a top 5 player in his position in any year that he had played?

Maybe Beukeboom shouldn't be drafted. I can give you that.

But the second question could be asked about Greschner, Ellett and Coutu, and the answer would be "no" for all three.

I think that crawford and roberts virtually cancel each other out.

No. One was a power forward and one of the best goalscorers of his time. the other was a complementary player.

johnson who is also a left winger...and zubov are both offensive minded .

Wrong... Johnson had very mediocre offensive stats as a defenseman, and was known as a defensive stalwart.

With 40 teams, he is a #1 D-man... but not a very good one IMO.

and bowie was an amateur so he played vs lesser talent no matter what the era. Heck I would pick joe beaton the top player in the british isles for the first 50 yrs from the last century ahead of bowie

You have got to be kidding me.

Crawford had 230 career points 15 playoff points and Roberts had 269 and 10 playoff points not much difference if u ask me.

Let's count top-level hockey only please.

Roberts had 247 points in 171 games (1.44). Crawford had 154 in 228 (0.67) - literally less than half his level of per-game production.

makarov had 424 134 250 384 career nhl games
13 Seasons USSR 519 322 388 = 772 points.

makarov played on a superior team vs weaker teams.

ron ellis 1034 332 308 640 on a very defensive toronto maple leafs team

There really isn't much too choose between them.

Look, Ellis was a great player, but come on. You hurt your team when you say stuff like this.

I was a great pond hockey player in nova scotia back in the 1980's guess I got a shot at being drafted No one score as many goals as i did so maybe I should drafted or maybe you should since you highly regard amateur player who probably played in an out door rink just like i did

Cool story bro. Now answer two questions please:

- How many hockey players in the world were better than you when you were at your pond hockey peak?

- How many hockey players in the world were better than Bowie?

- While we're at it, how many hockey players were better than this Joe Beaton when he was at his best?

 

[MadArcand]

He doesn't impact the ATD, with the best of the best of everything, on a defensive level.

He's basically the same defensively as St.Louis and Elias, except the two have been on the same level for longer.

 

[seventieslord]

He's basically the same defensively as St.Louis and Elias, except the two have been on the same level for longer.

I definitely would not say Staal is at their level defensively.

 

[MadArcand]

I definitely would not say Staal is at their level defensively.

I definitely would say that he is, currently, at their level. Of course, 1-2 years at that level compared to 10+...

 

[seventieslord]

I definitely would say that he is, currently, at their level. Of course, 1-2 years at that level compared to 10+...

I don't know that he's peaked defensively as high as they have. St. Louis, for example, was even a Selke candidate.

But I agree, his defensive resume is 1-2 years long at this point.

 

[Sturminator]

5. Bowie isn't that small in the ATD, so to speak; to use unadjusted sizes from an active player to an old player is highly unfair. Bowie, I think, was about average in size for his era. Staal has good strength to take on Bowie...he does not have good defensive skill to do so.

Bowie was small even for his era, I believe, though he was obviously not the midget relative to his peers that he'd be by modern standards at that size.

6. Makarov is an elite 2nd liner...Ellis is a good third line RW, but "easily" is arrogant. Also, usually, it's RW on LW and LW on RW.

At 40 teams, I actually think Ron Ellis is a good second liner, at least at even strength and on the penalty kill. He was an excellent player, a real gamer. He's not Sergei Makarov, though, and can't realistically check a guy playing on the other wing.

8. I find it amusing you critisize Zubov on a top pairing when you've got Dutton on yours, who is a lot worse.

I think you're underrating Dutton calling him "a lot worse" than Zubov. I would take Zubov over Dutton in a vacuum, but not by all that much. Dutton was big, strong, fast and aggressive, and was considered an excellent player in his day, twice placing in the top-5 in Hart voting. Both are really better suited to being #3s, but if I had to choose one to put on a top pairing, it might well be Dutton simply because he's going to be a lot less vulnerable to getting ragdolled by ATD first unit forwards.

This comparison is a lot closer than you make it sound.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Cool story bro. Now answer two questions please:

- How many hockey players in the world were better than you when you were at your pond hockey peak? not one was better...seriously

- How many hockey players in the world were better than Bowie? on my pond 4

- While we're at it, how many hockey players were better than this Joe Beaton when he was at his best?

go research joe beaton dude

not too brag but i had first line speed... faster then ovechkin I had an accurate heavy shot and i would intimidate even your mother out of the rink back into the woods with the rest of your big foot tribe :lol

 

[Leaf Lander]

I don't know that he's peaked defensively as high as they have. St. Louis, for example, was even a Selke candidate.

But I agree, his defensive resume is 1-2 years long at this point.

funny they talked about his defensive ability in hsi rookie

 

[Leaf Lander]

Bowie was small even for his era, I believe, though he was obviously not the midget relative to his peers that he'd be by modern standards at that size.



At 40 teams, I actually think Ron Ellis is a good second liner, at least at even strength and on the penalty kill. He was an excellent player, a real gamer. He's not Sergei Makarov, though, and can't realistically check a guy playing on the other wing.



I think you're underrating Dutton calling him "a lot worse" than Zubov. I would take Zubov over Dutton in a vacuum, but not by all that much. Dutton was big, strong, fast and aggressive, and was considered an excellent player in his day, twice placing in the top-5 in Hart voting. Both are really better suited to being #3s, but if I had to choose one to put on a top pairing, it might well be Dutton simply because he's going to be a lot less vulnerable to getting ragdolled by ATD first unit forwards.

This comparison is a lot closer than you make it sound.

finally the non bias voice of reason

 

[Leaf Lander]

I really feel like lindsay was taken dow na peg and bowie has been way overrated


lindsay is top tier top 3 player of all time and bowie is over rated

 

[Leaf Lander]

Maybe Beukeboom shouldn't be drafted. I can give you that.

But the second question could be asked about Greschner, Ellett and Coutu, and the answer would be "no" for all three.

seventieslord

dave ellet was a top pairing d-man on a great leafs squad that went to the final 4 2 tiems and for a fewyears he was considered a top 4 d-man in the nhl

Greschner was an all start offensive dman for many years.

Coutu was one of the top defenceman in his era his play was just overshadowed by his even greater defensive partner.

 

[Leaf Lander]

#4 Dave Ellett

Quote:
Dave Ellett was a very skilled finesse player. Skating was his prime asset. He was an excellent skater, blessed with very good speed and quickness, and fine agility. His mobility allowed him to dictate the play at either blue line. His transition game was great because he could effortlessly turn the play around at the defensive blue line.

His puck ability was also top notch, and that shone through on the power play, which is where Ellett established himself as one of the NHL's top players. He could control the point with great comfort, holding the line and pinching in with great efficiency. He was a key player in establishing the offensive zone. He was an under-rated puck rusher and a good break out playmaker. He also had a very good shot, and the smarts to keep it low and hard to create opportunities for deflections and rebounds.
Joe Pelletier
Seasons:16
Era:Mid 1980's early 2000's
RS 1129 153 415 568 197
PO 116 11 46 57 19
Best Season 1987-88 - 68 13 45 58
All-Star Games 1989 1992
10 seasons 30+ Points
9 Seasons 40+ Points
3 Seasons 50+ Points
Ranked 73rd all time leaf
Role: Offensive defenceman


#8 Ron Ellis, RW
Quote:
With his team-first approach and consistent game in and game out effort and production, Imlach could only hope all his young players could be as good as the stocky right winger.

Ron was one of the fastest breakaway skaters in the league, Ellis had a fine accurate shot. He was also a very sound player positionally. Joe Pelletier
Quote:
He was prolific young scorer who when he joiend the leafs immediately became a vital two-way performer playing on a line with stalwarts Dave Keon and Bob Pulford.


Ellis played on his most cohesive forward unit with Paul Henderson and Norm Ullman. This trio was adept at forechecking and opportunistic scoring. Ellis's role was crucial since he usually stayed back to guard against the counter attack while his linemates pushed forward.
Seasons 16
Era mid 60's early 1980's
RS 1034 332 308 640 207
PO 70 18 8 26 20
Lost 2 seasons due to early retirement
Eleven 20+ Goal Seasons
Two 30 + Goal Seasons
Best Season 1974–75 79 32 29 61 25\
* 1966–67 - Stanley Cup Champion
* 1963–64 - NHL All-Star Game
* 1964–65 - NHL All-Star Game
* 1967–68 - NHL All-Star Game
* 1969–70 - NHL All-Star Game
* [(1972)] Team Canada
runner-up to Roger Crozier as the rookie-of-the-year.
Second All-Star Team (1964)
Role 2 way player /sniper

#4 Ron Greschner, D
Quote:
A member of the Rangers for all 16 of his NHL seasons, defenseman Ron Greschner was the heart and soul of the Blueshirts` blueline corps playing with a combination of skill and toughness that would enthrall a generation of ranger fans through that the late 1970s and the entire 1980s.

Opponents feared ron every time he was on the ice because he was intensively competitive utilizing his speed and his creative natural skill set dazzling all those in the hockey world.

At 6'2 200 pounds gresh could use his reach to a great advantage as well he was a great skater who excelled on the powerplay. He was also a great stickhandler who often played center on broadway.

Greschner came to the Rangers in 1974 as a highly-touted second-round draft pick, who was coming off a 103-point season for New Westminster of the Western Canadian Junior Hockey League. As if to signal how much of an impact he would make, he fittingly scored his first NHL goal against Hall of Famer Ken Dryden and went on to set a then Rangers rookie record of 37 assists in 1974-75.

Greschner was so skilled offensively that the Rangers would occasionally play him at forward as well as defense, and in 1977-78, he registered the first of four 20-goal seasons. His third 20-goal campaign in 1980-81 featured a career-high 27 goals and included time at left win on a line with Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg.

In 1982-83 broke Brad Park`s record for career points by a Rangers defenseman — a record he held until passed by Brian Leetch in the late 1990s.

He was named captain for the 1986-86 season after filling in for Barry Beck the previous year.

Greschner retired in 1990 at age 35. Although all of his major team records were later broken by Leetch, Greschner retired from the NHL as the Rangers` all-time leader in points, goals and assists by a defensemen.

Greschner deserves to has his number retired up their in the rafters next to Leetch and Messier- Tom Laidlaw.
http://rangers.nhl.com/club/atrplayer.htm?id=8447409
THE TOP 100 RANGERS OF ALL TIME BookRuss Cohen
RANGERS CAPTAIN
Oct. 9, 1986 to Dec. 3, 1987
MAJOR NHL AWARDS/ACHIEVEMENTS WITH RANGERS
NHL All-Star Game — 1980
RANGERS TEAM AWARDS
Players` Player Award — 1977-78 (co-winner)
Rangers Good Guy Award — 1985-86
"Crumb Bum" Award (Community Service) — 1984-85
INTERNATIONAL TOURNAMENTS WHILE WITH RANGERS
1979 Challenge Cup — NHL All-Stars vs. USSR (reserve, did not play)
RANGERS TEAM LEADER
Most assists — 1977-78, 1980-81
Most playoff assists — 1980
Seasons 16
Era Mid-1970's -early 1990's
RS 982 179 431 610 80 1,226
PO 84 17 32 49
Best Season 1977-78 NYR 78 24 48 72
20 Goal Seasons -4
Stanley Cup Appearances 1
Role: Franchise Defenceman

 

[Leaf Lander]

#10 Billy Coutu,D
Height: 5'11''
Weight: 190 lbs
Position: Defense
Shoots: Left
Date of Birth: March 01, 1892
Place of Birth: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Date of Death: February 25, 1977 (Age: 84)
Stanley Cup Champion (1924)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1917, 1919*, 1925)
Team Captain (1925-1926)
Top-10 Penalty Minutes (3rd, 7th, 8th, 8th)
Top-10 Scoring Among defenseman (7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring among defenseman (6th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Assist among defenseman (5th, 6th, 8th, 8th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Penalty Minutes among defenseman (2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (8th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (9th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty Minutes (1st, 8th)
Top-10 Playoff Scoring Among defenseman (3rd, 6th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring among defenseman (1st)
Top-10 Playoff Assist among defenseman (1st)
Top-10 Playoff Pim among defenseman (1st, 4th, 5th)[/b]


- In 1916, Coutu won the U.S.A. Senior championship with the Michigan Soo Indians
- On November 24th, 1916, Coutu signed as a free agent by Montreal Canadiens in the National Hockey Association
- In 1919, Coutu alongside Joe Hall, Edouard Lalonde, Jack McDonald and manager George Kennedy contracted influenza and were hospitalized. Teammate Joe Hall died during Game 5 and the Stanley Cup finals was cancelled.
- On November 27th, 1920, Coutu was loaned to the Hamilton Tigers by the Montreal Canadiens as part of trade of Jack McDonald, Harry Mummery and Dave Ritchie for Jack Coughlin, Goldie Prodgers and Joe Matte
- On January 12nd 1924,Coutu missed seven games due to a broken wrist suffered in a game against the Toronto St. Patricks
- On January 19th 1926, he was suspended one game and fined 100$ by theNHL for tripping referee Jerry Laflamme against the Ottawa Senators
- At the end of Game 4 of the 1927 Stanley Cup, Coutu started a bench-clearing brawl, apparently at the request of coach Art Ross, by assaulting referee Jerry Laflamme and tackling referee Billy Bell. As a result, he was expelled from the NHL for life. On October 8th, 1929, the suspension was lifted so that Coutu could play in the minor leagues. He never played in the NHL again, although he was reinstated in 1932–33 at the insistence of Leo Dandurand
- During the 1933-34 season, Coutu played one game in goal for the Providence Reds in the Canadian American Hockey League, allowing 12 goals
- Coutu was a longtime Minor Pro Coach and referee after his playing days

-Several hockey history books, including The Hockey News "Habs Heroes" by Ken Campbell incorrectly attribute his name to a photograph of teammate Louis Berlinguette. He and his family pronounced their name "Koochee", which was sometimes confused with "Couture".

-Ms. Aird Stuart, the sister of Coutu's wife, Gertrude Aird, was the mother of Mary Morenz and grandmother of Marlene Geoffrion, daughter of Howie Morenz and widow of Bernie Geoffrion.

-Howie Morenz played with Coutu on the Canadiens.-wikipedia



Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Heroes Somewhere along the line, Billy Couture became Billy Coutu, but one thing that remained the same was the man's temper and penchant for taking it out on his opponents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurHistory.Canadiens
THE MERE PRESENCE OF BILLY COUTURE DETERRED OPPONENTS FROM TAKING LIBERTIES WITH THE TEAM’S STARS.

In his heyday, Billy Couture was one of the most feared men who laced up the skates in the rough and tumble world of professional hockey. Born in North Bay, Ontario in 1892, the 5-foot-11, 190-pound defenseman spent a decade defending his territory against his opponents using any means necessary.

The NHL set up shop the next fall. With Couture on defense and his well-developed mean streak often coming to the forefront.

With Joe Hall’s death, Couture became the Canadiens’ undisputed enforcer, a most effective deterrent to those who might choose to take liberties with the team’s marquee players. Loaned to the Hamilton Tigers for the 1920-21 season, Couture played against his former Montreal mates with the same ferocity he had shown while wearing their colors.

Returning to Montreal at the beginning of 1921-22, Couture once again began making life miserable for Habs’ opponents. Not allowing himself to be limited by the rules of play, no tactic was too underhanded or brutal as Couture made sure that his opponents worried about more than simply preventing the likes of Morenz, Joliat, and Boucher from scoring.
In the spring of 1924, the Canadiens made their way back into contention for the Stanley Cup. With Georges Vézina in nets and Couture creating mayhem on the blue line, Montreal was almost unimpeded in their efforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail of the Stanley Cup, vol.1 One of the roughest defence men in hockey, particularly when paired with Sprague Cleghorn on the Canadiens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Hockey
In Montreal, Cleghorn was paired with fellow archfiend Billy Coutu to form what was arguably the most frightening defensive duo ever seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatique.ca
(Corbeau) will have the distinction to have form the first version of the ''Big Three'' with the Montreal Canadiens with all-star defenseman Sprague Cleghorn and Billy Coutu. Moreover than all three had lightning-like shots, all three of them measured at least 5'10'' et weight more than 190 pounds each.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; November 20th 1924 Patrick Offers to Trade Frank Boucher for Coutu
Vancouver, B.C Nov 19- Frank Patrick, owner of he Vancouver Maroons hockey team, has wired Leo Dandurand, offering to trade Frank Boucher for one year only for Billy Coutu, Canadiens defence man. Patrick, it is understood, make the offer owing to Boucher's desire to play hockey in the East.
If Dandurand does not approve, then Boucher will play here or remain out of hockey this season, it is stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; December 29th 1936 Coutu, a native of Sault Ste. Marie was a turbulant figure in hockey wars for years, and suspensions and fines made no visible impression on him. He was not a great defenseman, but he was better than average, and his reputation was such that attackers were always on the alert when he hove into sight. For several seasons he and Sprague Cleghorn were Canadiens' regular defensemen, and they certainly made the road to George Vezina's net the rockiest one to travel in all the history of hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; October 18th 1937 Coutu, for many years a shining in NHL is making his debut as a manager.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; December 13th 1938Billy Coutu, one-time firebrand of major league hockey.- ''He might get overlooked because he played with Cleghorn in term of how dirty and nasty of a player he was.''
- Bob Duff, historian

-
Quote:
''He was a rough, rough dude and I think a lot of people steered clear of him. He was one of those guys people thought 'Gee, you'd better not bother him because there's no telling what's going to happen.' He was a pretty good player, but while the others were doing the rushing, he was staying back and doing the dirty work.''
- Ernie Fitzsimmons, historian


Sites:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=12352
http://www.sihrhockey.org/member_pla..._id=796&mode=2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Coutu
http://theryancokeexperience.wordpre...p-100-habs-48/
http://www.habsinsideout.com/main/2068
http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Billy-Couture
http://www.fanatique.ca/lnh/bert-cor...blie+3457.html

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If Dave Ellett was considered a "top 4 defenseman in the league," he would have been a second team All-Star.

 

[Leaf Lander]

If Dave Ellett was considered a "top 4 defenseman in the league," he would have been a second team All-Star.

don't forget the era..which makes that impossible.

coffey macinnis stevens neidermyer leetch bourque chelios

he isn't at there level and I am not suggesting that.

I am just saying in a 40 team draft he is atd worthy in the late rounds and he is in my last pairing

 

[seventieslord]

go research joe beaton dude

not too brag but i had first line speed... faster then ovechkin I had an accurate heavy shot and i would intimidate even your mother out of the rink back into the woods with the rest of your big foot tribe :lol

I really am having a hard time determining if you are serious now.....

seventieslord

dave ellet was a top pairing d-man on a great leafs squad that went to the final 4 2 tiems and for a fewyears he was considered a top 4 d-man in the nhl

Greschner was an all start offensive dman for many years.

Coutu was one of the top defenceman in his era his play was just overshadowed by his even greater defensive partner.

None of them were ever top-4 d-men in the world. Coutu may have, for a brief time, been considered top-10, in a pretty small talent pool. I'm confident that Greschner and Ellett never were.

Does that mean they suck? No, but it's worth pointing out when you said the same thing about Beukeboom as evidence he shouldn't be drafted.

 

[Dreakmur]

don't forget the era..which makes that impossible.

coffey macinnis stevens neidermyer leetch bourque chelios

he isn't at there level and I am not suggesting that.

So that means he was never considered a top-4 defenseman..... not even close.

 

[Leaf Lander]

So that means he was never considered a top-4 defenseman..... not even close.

so what did u think of beaukaboom as the 6th pairing for ur buddy nyld ............talk about closed minded


don cherry thought he was

and he is miles ahead of beaukaboom

if your going by your memories of him you prob recall him after his peak yrs

 

[BraveCanadian]

seventieslord

dave ellet was a top pairing d-man on a great leafs squad that went to the final 4 2 tiems and for a fewyears he was considered a top 4 d-man in the nhl

Greschner was an all start offensive dman for many years.

Coutu was one of the top defenceman in his era his play was just overshadowed by his even greater defensive partner.

I'm a big Dave Ellett fan and those Leaf teams are my favourite of all time because of their work ethic and tenacity.

If you mean Dave Ellett was a legitimate top 4 defenseman I would easily agree with you. Particularly when he was playing in Toronto with Pat Burns he was very reliable defensively and still had some good offensive pop.

If you mean Dave Ellett was a top 4 defenseman - as in one of the top 4 individuals in the league - he wasn't.

I don't know where Beukeboom came from in this but Ellett was a far superior hockey player all around.

He was a good solid defenseman in his best years with a good ability to main the point on the powerplay and he had a great point shot. Not overpowering like MacIinnis but hard, low and accurate.

 

[Leaf Lander]

thanks for the good response bravecanadian obviously you do not have more then one user name but others here are suspicious!

 

[BraveCanadian]

thanks for the good response bravecanadian obviously you do not have more then one user name but others here are suspicious!

I think they took your comment to mean that he was one of the top 4 defensemen in the whole league.

Not that he was capable of challenging for the top 4 on the majority of teams at the time - which he was..