ATD Chat Thread XVII

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ResilientBeast

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Agree with you 100%.

In my experience hockey players have been the most approachable and "normal" seeming people on/off the ice. I've never seen a tougher group of individuals (with the exception of maybe rugby players). But that toughness is almost always done with pride and sense of camaraderie you don't see permeate throughout other sports. Hockey is one of the few activities where I feel like the TEAM is (nearly) universally revered more than individual earnings/accolades.

Baseball has been plagued by cheating scandals throughout history. Just in my life time you've seen some of the worst instances in history (MLB literally pushing steroids to make up for the appalling strike in 1994). Then the same MLB hammered those who took roids after the fact. Fast forward to recent times and you saw the sign stealing scandal that involved an entire franchise (Houston). A franchise that won a World Series in part, because they were cheating game in and game out. But hey, Pete Rose is banned for life and the worst perpetrators from the Houston org. got off with a year ban and in the case of the players, nothing. An absolute disgrace.

Basketball is unwatchable IMO. They've been overtaken by political activism which, IMHO, has little place in the sporting world but that's a topic for some other place/time. Not to mention, the NBA has largely become "super-team" dominant. The league is pathetically top heavy and the style of play is not what I remember in the 90's and early 2000's. WAY to individualistic for my taste.

Football shares the same problems as baseball, with far more pronounced situations of beating women, raping them, on the field fiasco's with cowardly acts of violence. How many cheating scandals were the Patriots tied to over the past 20 years? And at every turn they got off with inconsequential fines and a few lost draft picks.

If you have issues with political activism in sports, you must take issue with some of the greatest athletes of all time.

I'm now going to sidestep the first part of the bolded because we blatantly disagree but this isn't a place for politics (even though the issues the NBA players speak about often aren't political). Secondly, I think you're grossly misrepresenting basketball in the 90s compared to now. Sure there is James Harden ISO ball but the biggest change in basketball lately is movement. Starting with 7 seconds or less Suns with Steve Nash. The game currently isn't all that individualistic, it's about movement and passing to create open shots for your teammates (by in large). There are some outliers like the Rockets but by in the large the game is far less selfish than in the 90s.

To the second bolded I'm a recent NFL and Patriots fan specifically. A lot of those "scandals" were BS. Deflategate? PV = nRT, as the temperature of an ideal gas drops, if volume is constant (ie inside a football) the pressure will also drop. A lot of those scandals were total BS and have never been proven to influence the outcome of the 6 Super Bowls we've won.

I appreciate the consistency in your objections at least, that off-field conduct seems to be a disqualifier for you across the other three sports.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
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If you have issues with political activism in sports, you must take issue with some of the greatest athletes of all time.

I'm now going to sidestep the first part of the bolded because we blatantly disagree but this isn't a place for politics (even though the issues the NBA players speak about often aren't political). Secondly, I think you're grossly misrepresenting basketball in the 90s compared to now. Sure there is James Harden ISO ball but the biggest change in basketball lately is movement. Starting with 7 seconds or less Suns with Steve Nash. The game currently isn't all that individualistic, it's about movement and passing to create open shots for your teammates (by in large). There are some outliers like the Rockets but by in the large the game is far less selfish than in the 90s.

To the second bolded I'm a recent NFL and Patriots fan specifically. A lot of those "scandals" were BS. Deflategate? PV = nRT, as the temperature of an ideal gas drops, if volume is constant (ie inside a football) the pressure will also drop. A lot of those scandals were total BS and have never been proven to influence the outcome of the 6 Super Bowls we've won.

I appreciate the consistency in your objections at least, that off-field conduct seems to be a disqualifier for you across the other three sports.

I agree. People like Ali, Bill Russell, Jim Brown were activist who tried to right the wrongs of the past.
 
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ResilientBeast

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Just going to copy and paste this from another mod

MOD NOTE: Reminder, this is NOT a political forum, political discussions will result in post deletion and/or warnings.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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Agree with you 100%.

In my experience hockey players have been the most approachable and "normal" seeming people on/off the ice. I've never seen a tougher group of individuals (with the exception of maybe rugby players). But that toughness is almost always done with pride and sense of camaraderie you don't see permeate throughout other sports. Hockey is one of the few activities where I feel like the TEAM is (nearly) universally revered more than individual earnings/accolades.

Baseball has been plagued by cheating scandals throughout history. Just in my life time you've seen some of the worst instances in history (MLB literally pushing steroids to make up for the appalling strike in 1994). Then the same MLB hammered those who took roids after the fact. Fast forward to recent times and you saw the sign stealing scandal that involved an entire franchise (Houston). A franchise that won a World Series in part, because they were cheating game in and game out. But hey, Pete Rose is banned for life and the worst perpetrators from the Houston org. got off with a year ban and in the case of the players, nothing. An absolute disgrace.

Basketball is unwatchable IMO. They've been overtaken by political activism which, IMHO, has little place in the sporting world but that's a topic for some other place/time. Not to mention, the NBA has largely become "super-team" dominant. The league is pathetically top heavy and the style of play is not what I remember in the 90's and early 2000's. WAY to individualistic for my taste.

Football shares the same problems as baseball, with far more pronounced situations of beating women, raping them, on the field fiasco's with cowardly acts of violence. How many cheating scandals were the Patriots tied to over the past 20 years? And at every turn they got off with inconsequential fines and a few lost draft picks.

Agree with some of this but I'd add the 2018 Red Sox cheated and won as well. They got off even easier and just re hired the manager in charge of cheating. The same manager who was the main guy in the Houston sign stealing program. Manfred :facepalm:

If you have issues with political activism in sports, you must take issue with some of the greatest athletes of all time.

I'm now going to sidestep the first part of the bolded because we blatantly disagree but this isn't a place for politics (even though the issues the NBA players speak about often aren't political). Secondly, I think you're grossly misrepresenting basketball in the 90s compared to now. Sure there is James Harden ISO ball but the biggest change in basketball lately is movement. Starting with 7 seconds or less Suns with Steve Nash. The game currently isn't all that individualistic, it's about movement and passing to create open shots for your teammates (by in large). There are some outliers like the Rockets but by in the large the game is far less selfish than in the 90s.

To the second bolded I'm a recent NFL and Patriots fan specifically. A lot of those "scandals" were BS. Deflategate? PV = nRT, as the temperature of an ideal gas drops, if volume is constant (ie inside a football) the pressure will also drop. A lot of those scandals were total BS and have never been proven to influence the outcome of the 6 Super Bowls we've won.

I appreciate the consistency in your objections at least, that off-field conduct seems to be a disqualifier for you across the other three sports.

Deflategate was some of the biggest crap I've ever seen in my life. Not a Pats fan, but man I was steadfast in my defence of them & TB12 during those couple years. It was just Irsay (a Goodell pet) moaning and complaining as usual, best part was they lost I think 45-7 that game so its not like they lost by a FG and you might feel bad or reason with them.
 
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ResilientBeast

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Best part about Manfred in the MLB. When asked if he should strip the Astros of their title he called it "just a metal trophy" or something similar.

How out of touch with the sport or even sports in general to say that about your trophy
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Thanks for replying, I decided to went with the free trial though. Too much to research.

Copy that. I've loved it so far. Most used for hockey research but the sheer volume of available info is really cool for basically anything historical from the last 150 odd years. Not terribly pricey but wouldn't call it a bargain either.

Let me know if there is anything I can help you with.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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What is the HHOF going to do with Paul Maurice?

I mean, hes at over 700 victories in his career and could retire with over 900 given how young he is. But say he never makes a finals or wins one.... do you induct him or not? Would be hard to leave out a guy with that many victories.

Best part about Manfred in the MLB. When asked if he should strip the Astros of their title he called it "just a metal trophy" or something similar.

How out of touch with the sport or even sports in general to say that about your trophy

Piece of metal.

Then there was the time where he barely punished the Red Sox, they cheated the exact same way Houston did.
 
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Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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The Leafs look to me about as good as the '17-'19 teams, which is:
- an improvement
- good enough to win a division
- but not a division that has Bergeron and Hedman in it
- this one doesn't
- we'll see if some other team gets hot
 

tinyzombies

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
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The Leafs look to me about as good as the '17-'19 teams, which is:
- an improvement
- good enough to win a division
- but not a division that has Bergeron and Hedman in it
- this one doesn't
- we'll see if some other team gets hot

I don't think Thornton and Vesey in their top 6 is going to cut it, maybe just give Thornton some ozone starts. The Brodie-Reilly pairing is a big improvement. I thought the Habs would be able to cycle more, but it wasn't that kind of game- we'll see down the road when it tightens up and we're at home.

They have enough to put together a good third line and have a nasty top 6. Their fourth line needs some kids to have big years tho because the goats look like goats and it's only the first game. You need to be able to skate in today's NHL..and it doesn't help that two of the guys they brought in for toughness are over the hill or too banged up.

Obviously their powerplay is unstoppable- that's what won them a game I thought Montreal was firmly in control of- tho I guess we got a point. Doesn't feel that way to Habs fans tho, feels like an L.
 
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Johnny Engine

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I don't think Thornton and Vesey in their top 6 is going to cut it, maybe just give Thornton some ozone starts. The Brodie-Reilly pairing is a big improvement. I thought the Habs would be able to cycle more, but it wasn't that kind of game- we'll see down the road when it tightens up and we're at home.

They have enough to put together a good third line and have a nasty top 6. Their fourth line needs some kids to have big years tho because the goats look like goats and it's only the first game. You need to be able to skate in today's NHL..and it doesn't help that two of the guys they brought in for toughness are over the hill or too banged up.

Obviously their powerplay is unstoppable- that's what won them a game I thought Montreal was firmly in control of- tho I guess we got a point. Doesn't feel that way to Habs fans tho, feels like an L.
Oh, Thornton on the first line is some galaxy-brained nonsense and the sooner they move on from it the better. Vesey is...whatever. Someone has to be the 6th best player in that top six (assuming Hyman is one of the 5 and not Thornton) and if it's Vesey, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, Robertston, whoever...other teams have bigger holes than that. It's like an ATD team plugging Bill Guerin in for their last 2nd line pick - if that's your biggest problem it's OK.
I assume you're talking about Simmonds and Bogosian for the bit about goats? Simmonds played 10 minutes and seems like he can do that ok. Bogosian looks like a worse version of Polak at this point and it's going to drive me nuts all year, but having a at least one-and-a-half of a real defense pair instead of none makes such a difference. Last year's defense was a house of cards that only sort of worked one way in theory but never in practice and definitely not if a single player was injured. This year, even if I have to suffer through 14 minutes of Bogosian a night, there shouldn't be a reason to play him much more than that.
No idea whether the power play will be quite as functional as it should be, but there are certainly a few murderers in that row. Really pulling for Manny though - who doesn't like that guy?
 

tinyzombies

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Oh, Thornton on the first line is some galaxy-brained nonsense and the sooner they move on from it the better. Vesey is...whatever. Someone has to be the 6th best player in that top six (assuming Hyman is one of the 5 and not Thornton) and if it's Vesey, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, Robertston, whoever...other teams have bigger holes than that. It's like an ATD team plugging Bill Guerin in for their last 2nd line pick - if that's your biggest problem it's OK.
I assume you're talking about Simmonds and Bogosian for the bit about goats? Simmonds played 10 minutes and seems like he can do that ok. Bogosian looks like a worse version of Polak at this point and it's going to drive me nuts all year, but having a at least one-and-a-half of a real defense pair instead of none makes such a difference. Last year's defense was a house of cards that only sort of worked one way in theory but never in practice and definitely not if a single player was injured. This year, even if I have to suffer through 14 minutes of Bogosian a night, there shouldn't be a reason to play him much more than that.
No idea whether the power play will be quite as functional as it should be, but there are certainly a few murderers in that row. Really pulling for Manny though - who doesn't like that guy?

Tavares-Nylander is scary defensively (but they outscore... that doesn't help in a close game necessarily). Vesey helps a bit with that I guess. Mikheyev is a very good defensvie player. I thought the problem in the past was overplaying the top 6. Not even sure Thornton is passable as a 3L- we shall see. If you keep Vesey up, Kerfoot-Mikheyev guarantees you'll have a good 3rd line. Just have to find someone else who can keep up. You can move Mikheyev up instead but that makes you soft.

That fourth line is awful though. Robertson or Barabanov or both are going to have to take huge steps forward, which is possible I guess.

I thought Lehtonen was going to take that RD job. You can't play Bogosian there, that's not gonna to work. Sandin is still raw. It's another really good jigsaw puzzle but if you lost a few of the pieces- will be difficult trading at the deadline this year I think. Cupwise anyway. I can see them taking first or second easy. Habs have an outside shot at first I think.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
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This just in: McDavid doing McDavid things.

f*** he’s a special talent. Just needs to prove he can lead a winner.
 

VanIslander

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This just in: McDavid doing McDavid things.

f*** he’s a special talent. Just needs to prove he can lead a winner.
An ATD 2nd line of

Vic Hadfield - Connor McDavid - Yvan Cournoyer

vs.

Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Blair Russell

Which do you take?
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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I thought the problem in the past was overplaying the top 6.
Naw, not really. Either the big guys are going to come through or they won't. We're not going to have the bottom 6 depth Montreal has no matter how you arrange it, and haven't since JVR was in town, but you run with what you've got. I'd like it to not be a total trashfire, though.

I thought Lehtonen was going to take that RD job. You can't play Bogosian there, that's not gonna to work.
Lehtonen won't play RD. They want Travis Dermott to play on that side going forward but seem to have decided that having Bogosian as a penalty taking, er, killing specialist is worth trying. Assuming that experiment ends soon, it'll be Lehtonen on the left and then Dermott on the right or maybe even Holl if he struggles on the second pair. Sandin and Liljegren are on hand and could/should be competent NHL defensemen at some point (even soon?), though they haven't been yet.
 
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tinyzombies

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An ATD 2nd line of

Vic Hadfield - Connor McDavid - Yvan Cournoyer

vs.

Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Blair Russell

Which do you take?

The way a player is used doesn't necessarily mean he isn't capable of doing something "more". It's a matter of styles. Gretzky didn't play defense in a non-systems era because that made no sense. Would they have won more Cups if they played a different style? Who knows, it's a can of worms (if that can exists). Defense becomes an abstraction when you have the greatest offensive mind on earth. Why put a shovel in his hand?

Architecte-Hockey uses data sets and then boils it down to player styles. Styles tend to change year-to-year for some players as a team changes focus, gets a new coach, etc. One year a player will be told to forecheck (a component of defense), another year a player will defend entries better or be better in their own zone.

I find the ATD doesn't give leeway for the different ways the game was played. We concretize the style a player had and transpose it to this era and then say that just because he didn't play a certain way that he's incapable of it. ATD wants to capture exactly what a player did as it is essentially a history project, but also allow a participant to make a persuasive argument so he can create his own world. The same way we adjust for height/weight of proto-players, because the standard heights of humans has increased. Why not allow for a hypothesis that says Yvan Cournoyer could play a different style? It's actually thought that he did become a competent defensive player as his career progressed, but the Canadiens were also in the midst of another dynasty in the late-60s when he was a rookie, so they were very strict in their defensive approach. If Cournoyer had started in the late 70's would he have had free reign like Lafleur? Maybe. And maybe you have Connor and Roadrunner just go flat out- who in history would be able to handle that? Or maybe is that too many apples in the same basket? That's part of the analysis. If you are going to play an aggressive offensive style in the ATD, does your team not need to measure up to a higher standard?

Back to styles. Some eras preferred two-way play, some wanted their skill guys to run loose and score. Was Bowman right about Lafleur or was Lafleur right to want more flow in his game and leave the checking to others since he had Lemaire and Savard on the ice? When he was a rookie he was meant to complement the Mahovliches, not the other way around. Bowman did an interview in the 90s saying Lafleur had been right and that he had held Guy back for several years - suggesting that he might have broken out earlier in his career. There is an advanced stat chart that shows Bowman was swayed as he used that line strictly for offensive zone starts and often double-shifted Lafleur on lower lines and used those lines in an offensive way as well (at least allowing Lafleur to roam). Why play two-way hockey when you can cut loose and blow teams away (and in their case still put up excellent "defensive" numbers for their top unit)? But then was Lemaire right later on in the 80's when he thought a diminished Canadiens needed to play more conservatively when he put a leash on Lafleur, who rejected it and opted to retire? Probably, since they didn't have the talent to keep up with the Islanders and Oilers. But then they had to get bigger players, which dragged them down to the trenches.

The same logic applies to Connor right now, but in a very strict systems era. Does he not want to play defense? Is he bad at it? Or has he just been deployed that way? His faceoff numbers have also been criticized, but I saw some stat that showed he was good on the draw in his own end- which would boost his defensive rating. And just LOOK at Connor play. No other player in history is able to do that, just as no goalie outside this era is able to do what Price does - and he has been the best at it if you adjust for setting (there are articles on this as advanced goalie metrics are not perfect). blah blah blah
 
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VanIslander

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I live in a foreign country and have NFL pundits on daily as background when showering, dressing, cleaning, cooking, etc. (Hockey in the off season just doesn't have as entertaining banter).

From September, it seemed obvious to me that this is New Orleans vs. Kansas City Superbowl year, yet both of those teams are constantly NOT mentioned. Are they the elephants in the room? Or is it a purpose attempt to make it all look competitive.

I love Cleveland and like Tampa, but the media is being silly on their takes imo.

It's like several years when the Patriots were obviously the best but you wouldn't know it from sports talk radio.

Bills mafia? You have won jack squat!

I am sooo glad the NHL season has finally started!
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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This new song ROCKS!



In fact, it is the heart of rock 'n roll.
Like AC/DC or Chuck Berry or the Rolling Stones.
 
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Professor What

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Sep 16, 2020
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I'm thinking about making a post in the bio with undrafted player's names censored out, like I've seen in other bio threads, but I'd prefer not to leave it like that if I can help it. Is it feasible to go back and edit it, adding names as players are drafted, or is there a time limit on editing posts on the board? Or, is it ever done that someone just waits until it's over and then makes the biography posts?
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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I'm thinking about making a post in the bio with undrafted player's names censored out, like I've seen in other bio threads, but I'd prefer not to leave it like that if I can help it. Is it feasible to go back and edit it, adding names as players are drafted, or is there a time limit on editing posts on the board? Or, is it ever done that someone just waits until it's over and then makes the biography posts?

Don't censor names in the Bio thread. You can write them in full. Bios are useful in subsequent years, no need to vandalize them with censorship.
 
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