ATD Chat Thread XVII

[ResilientBeast]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday Season guys!

For my ATD Christmas wish this year, I’d like you to all allow me to draft Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux and Patrick Roy with my first three picks this year in the ATD. Please take it under consideration.

Seriously, I wish you all good health and happiness in the coming year and beyond. Hopefully 2021 is less of a shit show than 2020 was.

I would like to draft Cyclone Taylor, Cyclone Taylor & Cyclone Taylor with mine

 

[Habsfan18]

I would like to draft Cyclone Taylor, Cyclone Taylor & Cyclone Taylor with mine

That would be a great trio. I’ll try to make it happen for you.

 

[ResilientBeast]

That would be a great trio. I’ll try to make it happen for you.

Not sure where the third one will play but 1C and 1D is sorted

 

[BenchBrawl]

Did an interesting thread recently.

I asked old Boston Bruins fans—who were old enough to have seen both play—who they would pick between Guy Lafleur and Jaromir Jagr at their best.

Question to old time Boston fans : Lafleur or Jagr?

I counted the votes quick, and Lafleur dominated 31-5. Most of these posters are credibly old enough to have seen Lafleur play, based on me knowing their age or just the general vibe of their profile and answer. Actually, most who voted for Jagr gave me the vibe of being too young to qualify for the thread.

Since it's Boston I was expecting Lafleur to win but the answers were really strong in his favor.

 

[VanIslander]

1977-79 I watched Habs games almost every Saturday (no live games on TV midweek back then, except on holidays), and I thought the top three Habs, in order, were:

1. Ken Dryden
2. Larry Robinson
3. Guy Lafleur

But Guy was fast and exciting, a flashy skater who got the lion's share of attention.

That said, I have always thought Lafleur > Jagr. Better skating, better passing, better shot on transition. (That said, Jagr protected the puck more and stickhandled like a demon.)

I bet the same old timers would say Larry Robinson was *gasp* better than Nicklas Lidstrom. I have heard friends my age say so several times over the years.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Merry Christmas guys

 

[Johnny Engine]

Every time I hear hockey announcers acting dumbfounded that most goalies catch left while most people are right handed, I get irrationally annoyed, and wonder if these people have ever seen a baseball glove in their lives.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Every time I hear hockey announcers acting dumbfounded that most goalies catch left while most people are right handed, I get irrationally annoyed, and wonder if these people have ever seen a baseball glove in their lives.

No one cares about baseball up north anymore. Which is a shame. I loved going to watch the Expos in Montreal.

Now all the city parks are transforming baseball fields into soccer fields, which irritates me.

 

[tinyzombies]

No one cares about baseball up north anymore. Which is a shame. I loved going to watch the Expos in Montreal.

Now all the city parks are transforming baseball fields into soccer fields, which irritates me.

I was surprised to walk by and watch the young NDG baseball team, and they were good at such a young age. All of them had good fundamentals that I just had to stop and watch for 15 mins. But ya you rarely see kids playing baseball like when I was younger and the Expos were here. It would return quickly if/when they come back.

Why am I commenting on that? I have no clue.

 

[ImporterExporter]

USA Hockey has grown leaps and bounds the past few decades.

They are now 4-1 all time vs Canada in WJC Gold Medal games.

Spencer Knight impressed the hell out of me. Goalies are the one position in hockey that can completely turn a game on its head.

 

[Dreakmur]

USA Hockey has grown leaps and bounds the past few decades.

They are now 4-1 all time vs Canada in WJC Gold Medal games.

Spencer Knight impressed the hell out of me. Goalies are the one position in hockey that can completely turn a game on its head.

Just like everything else in the states, USA hockey focuses on the elite.

 

[VanIslander]

I recently finished a 32-team fantasy NHL-cap keeper league draft in which i traded out of the first round, picked up Crosby absurdly mid-2nd round, traded him because i loathe the Pens, and ended up surprisingly with NO Canadians (I am Canadian) in the starting 5-skater line-up. I was not expecting to find: I had THREE Americans! Kevin Hayes, Anders Lee and Shayne Gostisbehere (with Evgeni Dadonov & Jonas Brodin)... though to be frank, fellow GMs have admired the depth of my squad, an all-Canadian third line (due to trades) of Neal-Zajac-Toffoli. Heck, Eric Staal is my 4th line center! It's a cap league, which makes it more remarkable.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Just like everything else in the states, USA hockey focuses on the elite.

I hate to break it to you, this is true in every 1st world nation.

The people in power only care about themselves. You can sift through whatever societal structure you want. Focusing on elites isn't

People get shafted while the elites laugh their asses off at the ineptitude of their subjects (voting isn't a freedom, it's a cell). We're all pawns in their grand scheme my friend. Ask the people of Hong Kong how they feel about slowly losing their autonomy. Just one of many examples you can identify.

It's a sad state of affairs my friend.

 

[Dreakmur]

I hate to break it to you, this is true in every 1st world nation.

The people in power only care about themselves. You can sift through whatever societal structure you want. Focusing on elites isn't

People get shafted while the elites laugh their asses off at the ineptitude of their subjects (voting isn't a freedom, it's a cell). We're all pawns in their grand scheme my friend. Ask the people of Hong Kong how they feel about slowly losing their autonomy. Just one of many examples you can identify.

It's a sad state of affairs my friend.

I’ve been coaching in Canada for over twenty years. It’s becoming more anti-elite every year.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I’ve been coaching in Canada for over twenty years. It’s becoming more anti-elite every year.

In your experience, has the average socioeconomic background of hockey players changed over the years?

 

[Dreakmur]

In your experience, has the average socioeconomic background of hockey players changed over the years?

Not particularly. It’s always been expensive. The specialty skills coaches have added unnecessary costs, but they aren’t necessary to succeed.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I’ve been coaching in Canada for over twenty years. It’s becoming more anti-elite every year.

A ton of non elites play hockey in the US. When I was a kid the closest place to skate indoors was almost an hour away in south central PA. The only places you could find actual organized/competitive hockey were in/around major urban areas. You often had to travel insane distances and belong to a travel squad. That's absolutely not the case anymore.

Almost all non elites will never progress to the highest ranks. In rare instances those kids from weaker economic backgrounds will simply be absorbed into the elite programs when the talent presents itself and the kid is actually discovered. But even budget hockey is still far more expensive to organize and outfit than say soccer or basketball.

Hockey is simply one of the more expensive sports to play, regardless of level.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not particularly. It’s always been expensive. The specialty skills coaches have added unnecessary costs, but they aren’t necessary to succeed.

I assume you're coaching at a high level, and that has always been expensive. I wonder if the landscape changed among the lower levels though, which is a point of entry for hockey to be "cultural" among the youth grassroot style, and for an healthy ecosystem to exist.

 

[BenchBrawl]

When I was young in the 1980's there were a lot of poor kids who had their equipment covered for by Montreal youth hockey organizations, except skates and sticks (and perhaps helmets). Maybe this is the case today too, I have no idea. All I know is very few kids are playing hockey outside anymore, and I wonder if that's a symptom of a dying or drying ecosystem.

 

[Dreakmur]

A ton of non elites play hockey in the US. When I was a kid the closest place to skate indoors was almost an hour away in south central PA. The only places you could find actual organized/competitive hockey were in/around major urban areas. You often had to travel insane distances and belong to a travel squad. That's absolutely not the case anymore.

Almost all non elites will never progress to the highest ranks. In rare instances those kids from weaker economic backgrounds will simply be absorbed into the elite programs when the talent presents itself and the kid is actually discovered. But even budget hockey is still far more expensive to organize and outfit than say soccer or basketball.

Hockey is simply one of the more expensive sports to play, regardless of level.

Yes, hockey is expensive. It has gotten worse, but so have most sports, mostly due to a huge increase in administrative costs.

Cost, however, was not what I was referring to when I mentioned elitism. The American program identifies the potential elite athletes early and spends money to nurture them. That’s something the Canadian program doesn’t do - in fact, it often does the opposite, which is why so many private hockey schools have emerged over the last few decades.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yes, hockey is expensive. It has gotten worse, but so have most sports, mostly due to a huge increase in administrative costs.

Cost, however, was not what I was referring to when I mentioned elitism. The American program identifies the potential elite athletes early and spends money to nurture them. That’s something the Canadian program doesn’t do - in fact, it often does the opposite, which is why so many private hockey schools have emerged over the last few decades.

Popularity has a lot to do with that. Supply and demand.

I'd imagine hockey programs in Canada absolutely dwarf the US, at least on a per capita basis. Private schools, organized leagues, etc.

USA Hockey is sort of limited in the way they can operate on an international scale. While more kids are playing hockey today in the US, you're still drawing from a very small pool of kids who are actually interested in playing/have the means to do so. So when a Jack Hughes is identified early on, he gets pulled in one direction if he wants to ascend the ranks.

Most parents won't even entertain hockey around here for matters of convenience, beyond even the price point argument. There are too many other sports available to dump their children in, for a significantly (in some cases) reduced cost.

Sucks, because I do think hockey is a tremendous sport for kids to participate in. It's a technical game as much as it's about skill. A lot of discipline to be had there.

 

[Dreakmur]

Popularity has a lot to do with that. Supply and demand.

I'd imagine hockey programs in Canada absolutely dwarf the US, at least on a per capita basis. Private schools, organized leagues, etc.

USA Hockey is sort of limited in the way they can operate on an international scale. While more kids are playing hockey today in the US, you're still drawing from a very small pool of kids who are actually interested in playing/have the means to do so. So when a Jack Hughes is identified early on, he gets pulled in one direction if he wants to ascend the ranks.

Most parents won't even entertain hockey around here for matters of convenience, beyond even the price point argument. There are too many other sports available to dump their children in, for a significantly (in some cases) reduced cost.

Sucks, because I do think hockey is a tremendous sport for kids to participate in. It's a technical game as much as it's about skill. A lot of discipline to be had there.

The culture around hockey far exceeds that of any other sport. The emphasis on the principles of respect, sportsmanship, and the values of teamwork are very unique to hockey.

I wish it was more accessible.

 

[VanIslander]

Respect? Sportsmanship? Have you played hockey?
Dirty, cheap, nasty moves. Tribalism at its base.

Baseball and football have a much stronger culture of respect and sportsmanship.

At least on the teams I have played on.

Hockey is full of jerks. Guys like Gretzky are the exception not the rule.

 

[Dreakmur]

Respect? Sportsmanship? Have you played hockey?
Dirty, cheap, nasty moves. Tribalism at its base.

Baseball and football have a much stronger culture of respect and sportsmanship.

At least on the teams I have played on.

Hockey is full of jerks. Guys like Gretzky are the exception not the rule.

I think you played on the wrong hockey teams.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I think you played on the wrong hockey teams.

Agree with you 100%.

In my experience hockey players have been the most approachable and "normal" seeming people on/off the ice. I've never seen a tougher group of individuals (with the exception of maybe rugby players). But that toughness is almost always done with pride and sense of camaraderie you don't see permeate throughout other sports. Hockey is one of the few activities where I feel like the TEAM is (nearly) universally revered more than individual earnings/accolades.

Baseball has been plagued by cheating scandals throughout history. Just in my life time you've seen some of the worst instances in history (MLB literally pushing steroids to make up for the appalling strike in 1994). Then the same MLB hammered those who took roids after the fact. Fast forward to recent times and you saw the sign stealing scandal that involved an entire franchise (Houston). A franchise that won a World Series in part, because they were cheating game in and game out. But hey, Pete Rose is banned for life and the worst perpetrators from the Houston org. got off with a year ban and in the case of the players, nothing. An absolute disgrace.

Basketball is unwatchable IMO. They've been overtaken by political activism which, IMHO, has little place in the sporting world but that's a topic for some other place/time. Not to mention, the NBA has largely become "super-team" dominant. The league is pathetically top heavy and the style of play is not what I remember in the 90's and early 2000's. WAY to individualistic for my taste.

Football shares the same problems as baseball, with far more pronounced situations of beating women, raping them, on the field fiasco's with cowardly acts of violence. How many cheating scandals were the Patriots tied to over the past 20 years? And at every turn they got off with inconsequential fines and a few lost draft picks.