ATD Chat Thread XV

[jarek]

Huh.

That was much worse than the infamous McSorley - Brashear incident, actually...

McSorley/Brashear only looked as bad as it did because of how badly Brashear got hurt.

What Nyquist did to Spurgeon appeared to be the sum of all the frustrations of the season and that particular game boiling up to the surface. Unfortunately Spurgeon was the victim. Any higher and his career is over.

This was one of the most vicious, blatant attempts to injure I have ever seen. There is literally no defense for this. He knew what he was doing. It isn't like he just swung his stick wildly due to some contact he didn't agree with. He was looking right into Spurgeon's eyes as he plunged the stick into his face.

 

[seventieslord]

Wow. Just watched it.

Worst thing in the last few years at least.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

When is the NHL releasing all their box scores in history?

 

[VanIslander]

Would anyone on this board really put Crosby on a penalty-kill unit before Gretzky or Lemieux?

 

[Johnny Engine]

Would anyone on this board really put Crosby on a penalty-kill unit before Gretzky or Lemieux?

Gretzky: 149 SH points, career
Lemieux: 71 SH points, career
Crosby: 8 SH points, career

Obviously, we don't measure penalty-killing by points alone, but given that we at least know Crosby has never played more than 38 seconds a game on the PK in any season, the point of using either of these guys would be as a deterrent/counterattack option.

Basically, two guys who were very good at a secondary facet of penalty killing, versus a guy who never did it at all (but at least wins faceoffs, skates and sees the ice well).

Who is advocating this, anyway?

 

[ResilientBeast]

VanI is going off about the 99 v 66 v 87 who is better defensively thread

 

[BenchBrawl]

Would anyone on this board really put Crosby on a penalty-kill unit before Gretzky or Lemieux?

Not sure.Maybe late in the game up by one.

 

[VanIslander]

Basically, two guys who were very good at a secondary facet of penalty killing,...

Huh?... Check out the History board. At least one "respected" ATDer (and not only one) think Crosby better defensively than Gretzky or Lemieux.

It's the height of absurdity from what I've seen. I dunno what crunched stat other than obvious ones that could show how silly it is!

Crosby on a team with a Gretzky or Lemieux in the dressing room would be holding a jock strap. So would a OV (or **** off!).

I must be getting old. My eyes tell me they guys of tday (should but) don't compare! ESPECIALLY without the puck!

Crosby's vision at all compares with Gretzky's?

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting stat:

Leafs in shorthanded situations this season: 5 GF, 30 GA. Pretty standard, right? 1:6 ratio. Better than average but not outside of standard deviations.

Leafs against a pulled goalie this season: 1 GF, 7 GA. A 1:7 ratio. Still very much like a shorthanded situation, but WITHOUT A GOALIE IN THE OTHER NET.

Unreal.

According to morehockeystats.com, who has the numbers going back to 2000, the Leafs are historically bad against an empty net this season. The only team close was the 2007 Oilers. (two teams in the past 18 years were 0-1 on the season but that's hardly a fair sample for them). Most seasons, the entire league is over 50%. Sometimes there's 1-2 teams at ~40% or even ~33 occasionally.

But 12.5%? Can you imagine? If the leafs were even average against the empty net this season they'd be 6-2 or 7-1 and would have as many points as Montreal right now.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Interesting stat:

Leafs in shorthanded situations this season: 5 GF, 30 GA. Pretty standard, right? 1:6 ratio. Better than average but not outside of standard deviations.

Leafs against a pulled goalie this season: 1 GF, 7 GA. A 1:7 ratio. Still very much like a shorthanded situation, but WITHOUT A GOALIE IN THE OTHER NET.

Unreal.

According to morehockeystats.com, who has the numbers going back to 2000, the Leafs are historically bad against an empty net this season. The only team close was the 2007 Oilers. (two teams in the past 18 years were 0-1 on the season but that's hardly a fair sample for them). Most seasons, the entire league is over 50%. Sometimes there's 1-2 teams at ~40% or even ~33 occasionally.

But 12.5%? Can you imagine? If the leafs were even average against the empty net this season they'd be 6-2 or 7-1 and would have as many points as Montreal right now.

Not to mention the 1-6 shootout record...

 

[seventieslord]

Not to mention the 1-6 shootout record...

...yup.

that's more of a coinflip so you can say "aw shucks bad luck" when that happens, but 1-7 against an empty net is not just luck. There's still hockey being played when these things happen!

But yes, those are two examples of things that can change a team from "challenging 1st overall"* to "maybe not a playoff team" if they both go drastically wrong for you over a season, or vice versa if they go extraordinarily well.

*seriously, if the leafs won all their shootouts and always closed the deal on empty nets they'd have 78 points right now

 

[jarek]

...yup.

that's more of a coinflip so you can say "aw shucks bad luck" when that happens, but 1-7 against an empty net is not just luck. There's still hockey being played when these things happen!

But yes, those are two examples of things that can change a team from "challenging 1st overall"* to "maybe not a playoff team" if they both go drastically wrong for you over a season, or vice versa if they go extraordinarily well.

*seriously, if the leafs won all their shootouts and always closed the deal on empty nets they'd have 78 points right now

Not to mention the historic pace of blown 3rd period leads..

The encouraging part is that there have been very few games this year where you could say the Leafs have just been thoroughly and utterly outplayed. I do think however that their current situation in the standings is an accurate reflection of where they are in the development of the players.

 

[seventieslord]

Not to mention the historic pace of blown 3rd period leads..

Leafs have led after 2 periods more than any other team except Washington, who is... you guessed it, first overall. It stands to reason that if they could just fix that, they could be 2nd overall. Easier said than done, though.

The encouraging part is that there have been very few games this year where you could say the Leafs have just been thoroughly and utterly outplayed. I do think however that their current situation in the standings is an accurate reflection of where they are in the development of the players.

Yes and no. Their non-shootout non-ENG goal differential is 8th best in the league and that's really where you should expect them to be right now, not 12th. (if you simulated a million game season with everyone running at their current GF/GA ratio, that's where they'd be, but seasons aren't a million games long...)

But coming into this season, if you asked me if I'd take 12th... hell yes I would.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Out of curiosity, were any of those 7 GA with a 2+ goal lead where they still ended up winning in regulation?

Also, any idea of what their OT/SO record was in the those empty-net goal against games?

 

[jarek]

Leafs have led after 2 periods more than any other team except Washington, who is... you guessed it, first overall. It stands to reason that if they could just fix that, they could be 2nd overall. Easier said than done, though.



Yes and no. Their non-shootout non-ENG goal differential is 8th best in the league and that's really where you should expect them to be right now, not 12th. (if you simulated a million game season with everyone running at their current GF/GA ratio, that's where they'd be, but seasons aren't a million games long...)

But coming into this season, if you asked me if I'd take 12th... hell yes I would.

I think the factor that is missing from your calculation is the inexperience of the group, which can lead to inconsistencies.

Provided we don't get hit with a bunch of sophomore slumps, next year should see the team comfortably in the playoffs.

 

[seventieslord]

Out of curiosity, were any of those 7 GA with a 2+ goal lead where they still ended up winning in regulation?

which 7 GA are you referring to?

Also, any idea of what their OT/SO record was in the those empty-net goal against games?

...I don't. that might take more time than I have this afternoon.

But you just reminded me that not every goal against in those situations is a blown point. It's a free point for the opposition at best, a blown point at worst.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

which 7 GA are you referring to?



...I don't. that might take more time than I have this afternoon.

But you just reminded me that not every goal against in those situations is a blown point. It's a free point for the opposition at best, a blown point at worst.

I was referring to the 7 empty net goals against, and yeah that's what I was getting at, how many points did it actually cost them?

 

[seventieslord]

I was referring to the 7 empty net goals against, and yeah that's what I was getting at, how many points did it actually cost them?

you mean the 7 goals when the opponent had their goalie pulled, yes?

The part that threw me off was the 2+ goal lead thing, that's a totally separate thing.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

you mean the 7 goals when the opponent had their goalie pulled, yes?

The part that threw me off was the 2+ goal lead thing, that's a totally separate thing.

Yeah I said that wrong, they weren't empty net goals, they were goals against with an empty net at the other end...was thinking that sometimes with a 2 goal lead players take extra risks to try to get an empty netter, giving up a goal against with an extra one in your back pocket isn't as bad as giving up the tying goal

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah I said that wrong, they weren't empty net goals, they were goals against with an empty net at the other end...was thinking that sometimes with a 2 goal lead players take extra risks to try to get an empty netter, giving up a goal against with an extra one in your back pocket isn't as bad as giving up the tying goal

Oh, gotcha. And now that I read your wording, it makes perfect sense, I was just interpreting it all wrong.

I don't think that has happened this season. I think every one of those was a tying goal.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I wish I had a time machine so I could understand how the **** the Renfrew team played

L. Patrick - Rover
F. Taylor - Cover Point
F. Patrick - Point

All three enjoyed rushing the puck up ice and going through the entire opposing team. How was there enough puck for all three of them

 

[VanIslander]

Yeah, Jagr 1,900 points, yeah little Crosby 1,000 points.

I wish I had a time machine so I could understand how the **** the Renfrew team played

It's amazing how a team with so many HHOFers (Newsy Lalonde, Pitre, Alf Smith, Cyclone Taylor, the Patrick brothers and three significant others) could NOT win the Stanley Cup! They tried, and tried.

 

[MadArcand]

Wow. Just watched it.

Worst thing in the last few years at least.

And the NHL - joke league that it is - rewards it with half the suspension it gives Vermette for tapping ref scum on the leg.

"Yeah it's fine if you try to gouge each other's eyes out, but don't you dare touch one of our corrupt employees!"

 

[jarek]

And the NHL - joke league that it is - rewards it with half the suspension it gives Vermette for tapping ref scum on the leg.

"Yeah it's fine if you try to gouge each other's eyes out, but don't you dare touch one of our corrupt employees!"

That's exactly what I said to my brother. I'm not exactly sure how the NHL bought the story that it wasn't done on purpose.

I don't care if the player never took a minor penalty in his life before doing something like this. He should have got 20 games.. at least.

 

[BenchBrawl]

By the way, scrimming through old newspapers have become a mini hobby of mine even if it's not hockey-related.I've checked some Montreal newspapers and in one article about a psychiatric hospital, some psychiatrists insist that electroshock is still the best method available to treat depression/melancholia.It was a long, elaborated article.I wasn't aware of the year as I was reading it, and then to my surprise I saw that it was from 1959.I was shocked(!) by how recent it was.There was an air of "knowledge" and "wisdom" and/or "consensual reasonableness" to the psychiatrists' quotes too.Just makes you think about how much BS is going on today that have the same patronizing air/tone.