ATD Chat Thread XV

[seventieslord]

Hold on, where are we getting "Marner can move back in the lineup?"
Nylander has played with Matthews his entire career, and it's been well documented that the Tavares signing was predicated on playing him with Marner. Why would that change now? Or is VanIslander suggesting that Nylander gets Tavares and Kasperi Kapanen stays on Matthews' right wing? Because that would be a weird suggestion.

I think he might be suggesting Marner moves off the first PP unit in favour of Nylander.

And, I don't think that happens. Marner has been lights out on the PP since halfway through last season. He may be its most important member. If you want to load up the first PP with "the big 4" and Rielly, then it's Kadri who moves.

Marner doesn't need the powerplay to get his points though. He's got one even strength point per game this season so far. In his career, he's got ten more ESP than Nylander does in the same number of games, and Matthews has points on four of the same ES goals Marner does. Nylander has shared contributions on goals with Matthews 43 times.

Marner is a year younger, has never had the benefit of a Matthews (yes he has Tavares this year), yet is outscoring Nylander at ES so far in their careers. (I only bring up his age because his "trajectory" is still likely to be pointing further upwards than Nylander's right now, if only slightly)

 

[seventieslord]

I can't decide who Marner reminds me most of - Mark Recchi, MSL or Patrick Kane. The right answer is he's a combination of the three of them in a few different ways. (I think saying Ray Whitney would be an insult, though Whitney was great, too)

 

[Johnny Engine]

I can't decide who Marner reminds me most of - Mark Recchi, MSL or Patrick Kane. The right answer is he's a combination of the three of them in a few different ways. (I think saying Ray Whitney would be an insult, though Whitney was great, too)

I’m not so sure about MSL or Recchi - those guys were little cinder blocks on wheels, and Marner is a lot lighter. Kane makes the most sense, but his lacrosse-like moves where he goes in for contact without getting hit square remind me of Gilmour, but not many wingers really do that.

 

[seventieslord]

I’m not so sure about MSL or Recchi - those guys were little cinder blocks on wheels, and Marner is a lot lighter. Kane makes the most sense, but his lacrosse-like moves where he goes in for contact without getting hit square remind me of Gilmour, but not many wingers really do that.

Recchi sure, but I'm not sure I'd call MSL a cinderblock. I compare Marner's engine to that of Recchi; he's got this determination and second effort on the puck that I like so much. This really helped in the last two playoffs.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Recchi sure, but I'm not sure I'd call MSL a cinderblock. I compare Marner's engine to that of Recchi; he's got this determination and second effort on the puck that I like so much. This really helped in the last two playoffs.

Yeah. All that is in his DNA for sure. The great thing about that level of player is that they all tend to be sui generis to some degree, so this debate could go on forever.

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah. All that is in his DNA for sure. The great thing about that level of player is that they all tend to be sui generis to some degree, so this debate could go on forever.

He's been compared to Kane for years, and it's really encouraging to see that he's ahead of Kane as a point producer for his age - whether you compare him to 3rd season Kane, who was 21, or 4th season Kane, who was in his "draft +4" season.

Although in Kane's 3rd season, he finished 10th in points and it's an awfully long time from now to April... Marner would have to score 54 or fewer points in the final 55 games to miss the top 10 (I estimate), and that is obviously very much in the realm of possibility, so I am by no means guaranteeing he finishes top-10 this season, let alone top-3.

 

[MadArcand]

I can't decide who Marner reminds me most of - Mark Recchi, MSL or Patrick Kane. The right answer is he's a combination of the three of them in a few different ways. (I think saying Ray Whitney would be an insult, though Whitney was great, too)

A more talented Ray Whitney is actually very apt comparison. RHS natural center turned playmaking winger whose skillset is based on great skating (not just speed but also agility), passing skills and hockey sense.

 

[seventieslord]

A more talented Ray Whitney is actually very apt comparison. RHS natural center turned playmaking winger whose skillset is based on great skating (not just speed but also agility), passing skills and hockey sense.

Stylistically yes, I'd agree. I think in terms of the quality of those skills and how much they'll achieve, he's on track to be too much better than Whitney for him to be a perfect comparison.

(There no telling how Marner will age, and how he'll perform in his late 30s, but it looks certain that at his best he's going to be much better than Whitney at his best)

I guess what I'm saying is I expect him to put up results more like Recchi or MSL or Kane, despite a style that's closer to Whitney.

 

[ResilientBeast]

You know I've been thinking more about McDavid @ResilientBeast .

I know you're a huge Edmonton fan. How would you feel if he were to walk after his current contract, if the Oilers continue to miss the postseason or just barely make it a few times?

I look at John Tavares and how much **** he got for leaving NY. But that was a pretty good parallel. Great talent (not on McD's level mind you). Best player on the team, continually looking at a franchise that couldn't get their **** together for the better part of a decade. He walked for his boyhood team and I really don't blame him.

I let this go while I gathered my thoughts. When he leaves I'll go with him to whatever team no exceptions

I was onboard with Chia, I thought the Lucic deal was going to help change the team for the better. I even defended the Larson trade, I didn't think Hall had a Hart in him. And if he'd stayed he wouldn't have reached that height.

But this team is horrific, we stuck with a lame duck coach for far too long, at least McDavid gets his points still. I would love him to win his third straight Art Ross on a non playoff team. We're not even that far out, but this season feels lost already.

The only threat he really has for the Ross is if that Avs top line keeps rolling (their shooting percentages are ridiculous)

 

[ImporterExporter]

I let this go while I gathered my thoughts. When he leaves I'll go with him to whatever team no exceptions

I was onboard with Chia, I thought the Lucic deal was going to help change the team for the better. I even defended the Larson trade, I didn't think Hall had a Hart in him. And if he'd stayed he wouldn't have reached that height.

But this team is horrific, we stuck with a lame duck coach for far too long, at least McDavid gets his points still. I would love him to win his third straight Art Ross on a non playoff team. We're not even that far out, but this season feels lost already.

The only threat he really has for the Ross is if that Avs top line keeps rolling (their shooting percentages are ridiculous)

No worries. I didn't mean to put you on the spot or anything. I just know you're a massive McDavid fan and have been an Oilers fan forever as well, I believe.

I didn't like he Lucic trade at all to be honest. I mean I sort of get the idea of bringing in a veteran, physical body who can score a little bit, but it just seemed odd given having a guy like McDavid would, IMO, signal a transition to a speed team, which is where the league has been rapidly going now. Lucic types are going to start disappearing from the league, much like straight goons did.

I completely agree Hall wouldn't have ever won a Hart in Edmonton. Had some injury problems, didn't seem like he was fitting in at all and McD's arrival more or less spelled the end. Larson isn't a bad hockey player, I just wasn't sure about the long term upside. But in that regard the Oilers were sort of stuck having to move Hall.

I can't believe they stuck with McLellan as long as they did. Hitchcock has a great track record of getting teams to the postseason, just not doing much there. His system will probably sap McDavid's scoring just a bit if he's rigid about everyone buying in but I do think it could help cover up for Edmonton's lack of depth overall.

Either way I feel you sir. I think McD is such a treat to watch. Seems like he's got a real good head on his shoulders as well. I don't want his 20's wasted on a team that can't get their shit together and as bad as it would suck for Oilers fans to have to watch him leave, the franchise isn't helping much, although I do think Hitchcock, at least in the short term can help Edmonton get back to the postseason based on his history.

 

[ResilientBeast]

No worries. I didn't mean to put you on the spot or anything. I just know you're a massive McDavid fan and have been an Oilers fan forever as well, I believe.

I didn't like he Lucic trade at all to be honest. I mean I sort of get the idea of bringing in a veteran, physical body who can score a little bit, but it just seemed odd given having a guy like McDavid would, IMO, signal a transition to a speed team, which is where the league has been rapidly going now. Lucic types are going to start disappearing from the league, much like straight goons did.

I completely agree Hall wouldn't have ever won a Hart in Edmonton. Had some injury problems, didn't seem like he was fitting in at all and McD's arrival more or less spelled the end. Larson isn't a bad hockey player, I just wasn't sure about the long term upside. But in that regard the Oilers were sort of stuck having to move Hall.

I can't believe they stuck with McLellan as long as they did. Hitchcock has a great track record of getting teams to the postseason, just not doing much there. His system will probably sap McDavid's scoring just a bit if he's rigid about everyone buying in but I do think it could help cover up for Edmonton's lack of depth overall.

Either way I feel you sir. I think McD is such a treat to watch. Seems like he's got a real good head on his shoulders as well. I don't want his 20's wasted on a team that can't get their **** together and as bad as it would suck for Oilers fans to have to watch him leave, the franchise isn't helping much, although I do think Hitchcock, at least in the short term can help Edmonton get back to the postseason based on his history.

If we had Hall he wouldn't play with McDavid anyway. The skeleton that was working before Hall was traded (when Hall and McDavid got injured at different times) would've hopefully been

XXX - McDavid - Eberle
Hall - Drasaitl - XXX

That looks like a discount version of Crosby/Malkin/Kessel.

If Eberle actually cared in Edmonton we would've been set then slide Maroon (at the time) and whoever on the LW and we're off and rolling. Play Nuge at either LW, 3C or pump and dump him for the best D we could've got

 

[ImporterExporter]

Kucherov says hold my beer while I track those Avs boys down.

Hitchcock's Oilers are averaging barely over 2 goals a game since he took over (13 goals in 6 games). But they are 4-2 not including tonight's unfinished game.

That's the one thing I'd be worried about if you're hoping McD gets another Ross. I wouldn't be surprised to see Edmonton get into the postseason but offense is going to be less than what we're used to.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Kucherov says hold my beer while I track those Avs boys down.

Hitchcock's Oilers are averaging barely over 2 goals a game since he took over (13 goals in 6 games). But they are 4-2 not including tonight's unfinished game.

That's the one thing I'd be worried about if you're hoping McD gets another Ross. I wouldn't be surprised to see Edmonton get into the postseason but offense is going to be less than what we're used to.

 

[seventieslord]

Lack of blind optimism looks good on you, but is the idea really all that funny? They're two points out and just made a big coaching upgrade. They've won two thirds of their games with Hitchcock. If that continues, they're a 101 point team.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Well the Pacific Division is very bad, is it not?

If they do get themselves an ugly division spot berth and make it it interesting in the playoffs, it'll be a fascinating part of McDavid's team-success legacy to debate down the road.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I can't believe Hitchock is even around anymore.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Lack of blind optimism looks good on you, but is the idea really all that funny? They're two points out and just made a big coaching upgrade. They've won two thirds of their games with Hitchcock. If that continues, they're a 101 point team.

I doubt it'll continue, this is not a good team. They riding a strong goalie and hoping 1-2 goals is enough to win.

We have 3 maybe 4 top 6 forwards and 3 top 4 defencemen

 

[seventieslord]

I can't believe Hitchock is even around anymore.

Ken Hitchcock retires like Dominik Hasek retires.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

They riding a strong goalie and hoping 1-2 goals is enough to win.

Sounds like a typical Hitchcock team...

Only partially joking

 

[ImporterExporter]

I mean Hitchcock isn't dumb. He sees the roster like we see it and knows that trying to outgun teams (McDavid or not) is not going to work. They simply don't have the scoring depth.

So, you sacrifice offense for team defensive play and hope you get a hot goalie to help you out. Ain't fun but the alternative is likely worse in the W-L ledger.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mean Hitchcock isn't dumb. He sees the roster like we see it and knows that trying to outgun teams (McDavid or not) is not going to work. They simply don't have the scoring depth.

So, you sacrifice offense for team defensive play and hope you get a hot goalie to help you out. Ain't fun but the alternative is likely worse in the W-L ledger.

I'm pretty sure Hitchcock would have them play that way regardless of their roster.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Trivia 101:

Pat Hornqvist now owns the fastest hatty in Penguins history.

With the offensive stars they've had over the past 3 decades, a pretty cool deal for one hellova workhorse player.

 

[seventieslord]

Oh wow... Wish I saw that live.

That's gotta be one of the the or four fastest hat tricks ever!

 

[Dreakmur]

I can't believe Hitchock is even around anymore.

I really like Hitchcock's ideas on coaching. He seems like a guy who is continuously trying to learn and improve.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

The Seattle Metropolitans