ATD 2011 Draft Thread XI - The Aftermath

[jarek]

Not to belittle the time we have all spent on it, but really?

We're talking about a fantasy draft on a web forum. The only people who care about the integrity and reputation of the draft are the same people who are participating.

If you want to be outraged save it for someone who deserves it like the guys on Wall Street who just finished taking the world to the cleaners.

I just think that, with the amount of time that has been spent over the years by many people on this project, and the progression that that has been made, to some people, the ATD is more than just a "fantasy draft". It is a tangible embodiment of the work that has been put into figuring out the history of hockey. I can see how some people that have been involved in this could be really upset, regardless of how far VI's teams have gone in the draft, and ANY plans to ever make the draft an "official" anything beyond some imaginary fantasy league would have basically been set back a very long time. Moreover, VI violated forum rules, at least as far as I'm aware at least. I know of some other forums where what VI has done would have come with an auto perma ban on his IP address (and, in some really nasty cases, on his entire domain), not just his username. Smurfing can be a very damaging act, you know.

 

[overpass]

As far as I'm concerned, you can't vote for the rest of the draft and we'll decide about the future when it's over.

Sounds good to me.

I know everyone loves the ATD drama, but I'd rather get back to the substance at some point.

 

[Dreakmur]

Was this really, really necessary? Are you out here just to berate and belittle me for everything I say that you don't agree with? So far, everything here has been civilized, but you seem to want to make this confrontational. I believe I have the right to an opinion on this matter, as well as the privilege of voicing that opinion if I choose to, so unless you have a problem with that, kindly make some meaningful comments on here if you are so inclined. Otherwise, just stop.

Don't tell me what to do.

I can do whatever I want!

 

[Dreakmur]

Sounds good to me.

I know everyone loves the ATD drama, but I'd rather get back to the substance at some point.

Agreed. Let this sit untill after this ATD.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Meh, I don't really think what he did was that big of a deal. VanI has contributed a lot to this forum and I don't think anyone genuinely cares about the history of hockey more than him. I don't think he would ever do anything mean-spirited or grossly unethical. As has been pointed out, his teams haven't really ever been all that successful and it's safe to say he wasn't rigging votes. Even if that wasn't the case, I would never believe that VanI would do anything like that. Obviously, he was just trying to make the draft run smoothly when he created Zamboni's team. It was a stop-gap measure, that got out of hand when his passion for the draft took over. If anything, he's guilty of being overly-enthusiastic about the ATD.

Was it poor judgement? Sure. Do the optics look ugly? Yes. Was it malicious? Definitely not.

VanI is a pretty good guy, and his contributions to the ATD are great. I think banning him would be more dramatic than productive.

"Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances" -Herodotus

 

[jarek]

Meh, I don't really think what he did was that big of a deal. VanI has contributed a lot to this forum and I don't think anyone genuinely cares about the history of hockey more than him. I don't think he would ever do anything mean-spirited or grossly unethical. As has been pointed out, his teams haven't really ever been all that successful and it's safe to say he wasn't rigging votes. Even if that wasn't the case, I would never believe that VanI would do anything like that. Obviously, he was just trying to make the draft run smoother when he created Zamboni's team. If anything, he's guilty of being overly-enthusiastic about the ATD.

Poor judgement? Sure. Malicious? Definitely not.

VanI is a pretty good guy, and his contributions to the ATD are great. I think banning him would be more dramatic than productive.

"Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances" -Herodotus

Long as VanI doesn't try to be above the rules in the future, I actually wouldn't mind seeing him come back. This IS a rather unique situation where I agree that his intentions most likely weren't malicious. Still troubling that he knew the rules and still circumvented them anyways. Keep in mind that this guy was a moderator for this board at one point. Kind of sets a bad example. Hopefully it all turns out smoothly.

 

[Leaf Lander]

wow i think this is crazy

 

[vancityluongo]

Am I the only GM who just finds this hilarious?

You guys can kick me out too for this comment, but the bickering in this thread has just made my day after a certain hockey game.

Seriously, a guy creates a fake account so he can enjoy the ATD without all the drama he had to deal with as commissioner, and now that he's caught, he gets "exiled" from the board? Really? I've always openly been at VanI's side until the end, but I think it's ridiculous to see the Colin Campbell wannabes declaring life time bans...yo, this is the guy that was forced out of this draft, and had a hand in the end in four teams. Good work, ATD police.

My two cents for whatever its worth is that no team with any association to VanI should be allowed to have a vote, and maybe VanI shoudn't comment on any series'. But him single handedly ruining the "integrity of the ATD"? That's ridiculous. As controversial as this will be, the integrity of the ATD was tarnished when every original GM but Leaf Lander (who is a trooper) opted out before this point. It's still a great pass time and learning experience, but IMO some of the comments in this thread are over the top. Probably include this one with it.

edit: I do agree though that it is incredibly ironic, hilarious, and fitting all at the same time that VanI was the biggets advocate of getting this board out of the Fantasy section. Nope.

 

[Dreakmur]

You guys can kick me out too for this comment, but the bickering in this thread has just made my day after a certain hockey game.

Seriously, a guy creates a fake account so he can enjoy the ATD without all the drama he had to deal with as commissioner, and now that he's caught, he gets "exiled" from the board? Really? I've always openly been at VanI's side until the end, but I think it's ridiculous to see the Colin Campbell wannabes declaring life time bans...yo, this is the guy that was forced out of this draft, and had a hand in the end in four teams. Good work, ATD police.

My two cents for whatever its worth is that no team with any association to VanI should be allowed to have a vote, and maybe VanI shoudn't comment on any series'. But him single handedly ruining the "integrity of the ATD"? That's ridiculous. As controversial as this will be, the integrity of the ATD was tarnished when every original GM but Leaf Lander (who is a trooper) opted out before this point. It's still a great pass time and learning experience, but IMO some of the comments in this thread are over the top. Probably include this one with it.

edit: I do agree though that it is incredibly ironic, hilarious, and fitting all at the same time that VanI was the biggets advocate of getting this board out of the Fantasy section. Nope.

Death by Uhgabugha!

 

[seventieslord]

Wow, saying that there is a lot to catch up on, would be an understatement. I'll try to answer what I can, in order, starting with the stuff from the last thread:

Apparently someone wanted to be able to select mediocre modern players, while still being able to chastise others for "homer picks" for taking modern players he didn't like.

Is it possible that ZM was just a "warm body"? Just a "VI not trying and not taking anyone he wanted for his own team"?

I recall VI commenting on ZM's picks before, but I'm too lazy to check how far those conversations went.

Good act, anyway.

As for ZM, "his" only purpose this draft was to **** an overeager rookie via trade (before making a bunch of "homer" picks like Mike Fischer at the end). Luckily, the trade committee did it's job.

Maybe it was to make a point about trading ruining the draft?

Obviously, all three teams must be stripped of the right to vote in this draft.

Yes, absolutely.

Dwight had ZM with him, and Cognition had VI with him for a while too. I assume we are all in agreement that those two teams are clean? I, for one, endorse them.

I'm not really buying that there was some big compromising of integrity here. A minor one, sure, but it didn't really affect voting/results. ZM was a half-assed GM and I'm sure VI designed him that way. He stole a player someone else wanted here and there, but not many.

The big offense was that when we were trying to make this a democratic process, he had three votes:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=865826

all three posts say "VanIslander" now, but that was VanIslander, The Sabre, and Zamboni Mania, all strategically voting 3-4-1-2, for the "trade conference" idea and against the "three trades" idea that was on track to be the popular idea.

MVPeyton is legit though, right? He was "The Sabre"''s co-GM, and he's been in a couple ATDs before.....

definitely legit.

Not to mention the endless paranoia in the future

Let's not get carried away with paranoia. This should not happen again. Who would try it?

I know for a fact that Dwight is legit, he is T-Kabs from the Leafs central board.

Seconded.

He created several accounts, essentially. Normally, this shows up in your "user map" that most forums track. How he managed to slip by that is beyond me.

I'm not sure if you're saying the board should have automatically caught him, or that I should have.

I'm not sure how the board works, maybe there are certain filters and his IP was dynamic enough that it didn't pick anything up.

As for me, I admit I saw a lot of similarities between VI and The Sabre for weeks. With the exception that The Sabre treated me pretty poorly (like VI wanted to treat me, I guess?) I never thought to check the IPs.

I obviously had no idea about ZM, and I know no one else did either.

Not exactly sure what you're saying here. Are you saying all his accounts had the same number of posts?

I know VI had 10,000+ posts earlier today and now has 11,000+ posts. So the post count he now has, is just the sum of all three accounts.

What he's saying is all the posts by ZM and The Sabre now show up as VI, as do the VI posts. I, along with him, don't know how this is possible. Unless he's already brought it to the board moderators and they consolidated the accounts, which I'd be surprised if they did. And I'm 99% sure Dwight is legit. He seems nothing like VI anyway.

That's what they do if someone has multiple accounts, like TDMM said.

and yeah... Dwight is definitely legit.

 

[seventieslord]

I find it funny how this went unnoticed for such a long time, I don't know if administrators have access to posters Internet Service Provider addresses. If they do, they must've missed it totally. Or VanI must have used 4 different unsuspicious IP addresses.

Yes, you could say it was missed, except it's not protocol go go clicking on everyone's IP to try to find people who have multiple accounts. Something has to make you wonder first, or you won't bother.

I actually think this is a very, very serious offense. Like I said before, the credibility of the ATD as a whole has been brought into serious question, ESPECIALLY because it was VI who did this. Essentially, every draft prior to this that VI participated in in any capacity is no longer credible. In lawyer terms, anything in this ATD that could be used as evidence in some form of criminal case would be thrown out immediately due to lack of integrity. I absolutely think this should be dealt with in a serious way.

Oh, I absolutely expect that he will never be allowed to participate in any future ATD under any capacity ever again, and I am quite certain that his IP address will be very closely tracked, since he wasn't outright banned. Unfortunately, if he moves somewhere else, his IP address will be different, and he can come back and, as long as he doesn't give himself away, get back into it pretty easily. The ATD community is generally very accepting of new people, and this sometimes may work against us.

Let's not overreact at this time either.

I have no idea if VI wants back in after all this. But if he's not a mod, and if he's not running it, and if he's got just one account, and (most importantly) if his presence isn't causing other GMs to stay away, maybe it would work in the future.

I've always thought VI was the only GM more hardcore about this than me. And, today, I guess you could say that was proven.

I'm not giving an endorsement or indictment when I say all this. But maybe we should all take a few days and think about how we really feel about this before making knee-jerk, far reaching decisions.

From first joining ATD2 in 2005 to being the one to suggest regular season rankings and playoff match-ups based on them, to developing the MLDs as a freestanding entity rather than just a couple of extra rounds at the end, to the AAA, AA and Undrafted threads. I have put thousands of hours into this board and have gotten a lot out of it.

FWIW, don't think we don't appreciate what you did for the drafts in the past.

Perhaps a building ought to have been drafted.

i knew it had to be you that harrassed Reen about that pick.

Has VI always been Zamboni Mania, or did he just take over recently? ZM has been around for a while, so if they've always been the same person, that's a big problem.

ZM came around just before ATD11. So it's been a while, but not really that long.

Didn't The Sabre have quite a few posts when he joined this ATD? That means VI either took over that account or he had been using it for a while.

He couldn't have had very many, because he joined on January 16th.

Not a single GM here can be cleared....

Let me stress again that we should not let paranoia permeate this place just because of this.

So we have two options moving forward: disqualify all 3 of VIs teams from the playoffs or keep then and just ban him from voting.

I'd lean towards keeping them, but then I've always been a bleeding heart liberal. The makeup teams are obviously losing in the preliminary round anyway.

Just disqualify them from voting. They are still teams full of 25 warm bodies so they can go out there and give it their best shot, but I think we know what will happen to them.

Two things stick out at me:

1. The Sabre's bickering and heckling of seventies about his clock makes so much more sense now.

O RLY?

2. The weird thing that I noticed whenever "The Sabre" made his picks was that he always introduced his picks as "The newest Pirate is...", and I always thought that was weird, and it annoyed me for some reason. That's how VI made his selections in some previous drafts. I only remember this because I used to follow his picks and read his bios closely, but I never made the connection. So, he almost gave himself away, but nobody caught it.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=31966228#post31966228

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=18948958&highlight=newest#post18948958

Good catch.

"something" about The Sabre reminded me of VI for weeks, but pinpointing exactly what, has been difficult. That wasn't it.

Are IPs shown when posting from a phone?

Definitely. When I click on my IP list, I get my work and home IPs, and then a whole bunch of dynamic IPs that I've posted from on my phone.

Thanks fugu. Guess VI is a fantasy sports poster afterall

I think you greatly enjoyed posting that.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, obviously, making multiple accounts and heckling people from them is fairly despicable, and in the interests of moving on VanIslander should definitely be banned from any future ATD's despite the work he put into it. Adding the precautionary of a kind of "alibi" for incoming GM's should prevent more fake ones from coming in, and it smart in weeding out people who won't be committed.

Now, the obvious question to the mods is, do we know that all of VanIslander's alternates have now been uprooted, to a 100% or close to it certainty?

I see people are really scared by this, but I am an optimist and don't see it as too bad as far as the core of the draft is concern. If we are dealing with VanIslander making multiple accounts and teams the past couple of drafts, teams that never really went deep into the draft anyway, then I don't think the integrity of the ATD really suffers much if at all. Maybe in the "court of law" that is not the case, but I think we can have piece of mind that the integrity of it is still strong in our hearts.

And let's get back to the fundamentals here, people, before we panic about the state of the ATD: At root level, the ATD is about having fun and learning about hockey history. Has VanIslander making multiple accounts really change or damaged either of those things? Has it stopped our learning of history or reversed the knowledge we have gained? Heck no.

VanIslander, though a great GM before this came to surface, is a person this community can live without. We were under that impression this entire draft. We're strong enough for that.

A black mark and unfortunate event, but there is no reason to press the panic button here.

Well-said. Let's not panic.

I guess I'm just pretty thick-skinned, or laissez-faire, or whatever you want to call it, but the last thing that came to my mind in all this was the heckling from The Sabre.

Make no mistake, VI's actions have damaged the integrity of the ATD. Just the fact that this went on for so long unnoticed in and of itself makes it a mockery. Others will take notice of that before they decide to participate, you can be assured of that.

Again, you're overreacting.

So I am to be permanently exiled from the board?

If so, I have a box of hockey history books I paid seventieslord $500 for last summer. They have no use to me other than research for MLDs. They can be had for simply the coast of shipping. PM me.

But there is more fitting punishment, isn't there?

Don't you mean seventylord?

I'm not currently endorsing future VI participation nor am I ruling it out. I'm also not the boss of this place, and the deciding factor is probably going to be how comfortable other users are going to be with having you back.

I'm still not entirely sure what to make of the whole situation.

I feel you, brother.

lol @ typical jarek

I don't want to look like I am dogpiling jarek here, but...

yeah, pretty much.

just chill, jarek.

I get tears in my eyes when I see a guy I'd profiled in past drafts get picked by someone else much earlier.

Me too. My eyes are rarely dry!

 

[Dreakmur]

Definitely. When I click on my IP list, I get my work and home IPs, and then a whole bunch of dynamic IPs that I've posted from on my phone.

And do those dynamic IPs tell you were the person's phone is?

 

[seventieslord]

As controversial as this will be, the integrity of the ATD was tarnished when every original GM but Leaf Lander (who is a trooper) opted out before this point.

I have absolutely no idea what this comment is supposed to mean.

 

[seventieslord]

And do those dynamic IPs tell you were the person's phone is?

I'm sure they can all be traced to Rogers, my cell phone provider.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

 

[hfboardsuser]

Although I thoroughly revel in the research and competitive side of the ATD, I agree with the argument that it's all in fun.

The dictionary defines "fun" as the following:

something that provides mirth or amusement

What I cannot reconcile is how creating alternate accounts and co-GMing with said alternate accounts is fun by the above definition- for VI or anyone else. Whether he intended to do it or not, VI undoubtedly gained an unfair competitive advantage, ruining any possibility at enjoyment for the other GMs involved. Imagine if this charade had extended into the playoffs.

To make matters worse, he managed to rope in a (so far) innocent rookie GM as part of his manipulation. That this occurred after his diva-ish behavior drove other potential GMs away at the very beginning is just unfathomable to me.

As was said, how can we be sure VI hasn't done this before? We can't. I cannot look back on previous ATDs with the same sort of enjoyment, nor can I look forward to others, unsure that VI or someone else has more skillfully perpetrated the same trick.

I'm not going to participate in this again. Clearly, VI wants the ATD done on his terms, and damn everyone else. I say give it to him, and let him invent 39 accounts to fill out the balance of the teams next time. Only then will he be truly happy.

 

[seventieslord]

Although I thoroughly revel in the research and competitive side of the ATD, I agree with the argument that it's all in fun.

The dictionary defines "fun" as the following:



What I cannot reconcile is how creating alternate accounts and co-GMing with said alternate accounts is fun by the above definition- for VI or anyone else. Whether he intended to do it or not, VI undoubtedly gained an unfair competitive advantage, ruining any possibility at enjoyment for the other GMs involved. Imagine if this charade had extended into the playoffs.

To make matters worse, he managed to rope in a (so far) innocent rookie GM as part of his manipulation. That this occurred after his diva-ish behavior drove other potential GMs away at the very beginning is just unfathomable to me.

As was said, how can we be sure VI hasn't done this before? We can't. I cannot look back on previous ATDs with the same sort of enjoyment, nor can I look forward to others, unsure that VI or someone else has more skillfully perpetrated the same trick.

I'm not going to participate in this again. Clearly, VI wants the ATD done on his terms, and damn everyone else. I say give it to him, and let him invent 39 accounts to fill out the balance of the teams next time. Only then will he be truly happy.

We'll miss you, but I'm sure your mind is made up.

Just to clarify a few things:

1. He didn't drag in an innocent rookie. Innocent, yes. Rookie, no. MVPeyton = BobbyRyanGetzlaf = Leopold Stotch

2. The potential GMs that were driven away that had to be asked back in due to the drama, were Zamboni Mania and The Sabre. Who were, of course, VI.

Not sure if this was because VI was attempting to disconnect himself from the whole draft (which means all 3 incarnations are out) or if that was his way of emphasizing "look at what you're doing, driving other GMs away thanks to all the drama you're creating!"

edit: whoops, you must be thinking of Cognition, not MVP/BRG/LS. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First off, Dwight and Cognition are clean. No need for them to be implicated in this garbage.

Good catch with VI voting 3 times for the terrible trade/no trade conference idea. IIRC, Zambon mania, who was never vocal about anything else was really vocal about it. Also, i actually do remember wondering why a rookie like Sabre cared enough to vote...

Shows what a terrible idea it was that VI voted for it 3 times and it still lost

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bugg, I hope you reconsider at some point. The ATD is really fun and educational and all that jazz and is bigger than one person. Think of it this way: we have 38 distinct teams all participating in something like this.

In five years, we really will have accumulated enough knowledge for someone to write a really worthwhile book IMO.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm sure they can all be traced to Rogers, my cell phone provider.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Unless you can pinpoint every IP of each GM, how can you be sure they aren't another puppet account?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Unless you can pinpoint every IP of each GM, how can you be sure they aren't another puppet account?

You can't be 100% about anything in life.

Believe me, as one who has run half the draft on my phone, it would be impossible to actually do research like this.

 

[seventieslord]

Unless you can pinpoint every IP of each GM, how can you be sure they aren't another puppet account?

When you click on someone's IP, it shows you everyone who has used that IP.

 

[seventieslord]

You can't be 100% about anything in life.

Believe me, as one who has run half the draft on my phone, it would be impossible to actually do research like this.

But what if they did all their research from their PC, and then picked and commented from their phone?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

But what if they did all their research from their PC, and then picked and commented from their phone?

They still wouldn't be able to post the research. Believe me, I can't wait until I have more time with a PC to actually post info about Pratt and possibly Bilya.

 

[Dreakmur]

But what if they did all their research from their PC, and then picked and commented from their phone?

What if I'm Dreakmur at home, Cognition at work, and Billy_Shoes at the public library?