ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[nik jr]

Quickly scanning through my old biography of Schmidt:

- Named the best all-around player of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey

- It's also widely know that the ''Krauts'' were the line who was assign defensive duty against the other team best line in the playoffs. You can catch that in the Trail of the Stanley Cup (I didn't owned the book when I did this bio)

I think you could very well make a claim that Nighbor as an edge defensively on Nighbor. My memory is fuzzy a bit on Schmidt though, since I've research him years ago. I think you would find more quotes on his defensive abilities as a unit, praising the 'Krauts'.

i have read much, much more about nighbor, but nighbor's defensive excellence was mentioned constantly by papers from various cities, even many years after he retired.

in his "pioneers" episode, schmidt said that the krauts always played against top lines, and that one of the other krauts was the best defensive player in the world. possibly that was modesty, though.

i will read some more about this.

 

[seventieslord]

Hey guys, I just want to tell everyone to feel free to usurp the biographies I've made in previous draft. My only condition is that you add at least ONE thing to it. A quote, a stats, anything

Is that proper use of the word "usurp"? Anyway, I get your point and I agree. Same thing with my bios. That's why they are there... use them! Just add something else.

I was contemplating taking Apps at #41 to have a ridiculous 1-2 punch of Morenz/Apps but he went 1 spot ahead of me. It is all good though getting a #1 defenceman is at a premium around here.

If people want to keep taking defensemen this early, I say let them. We'll get better value later, while also getting better forwards now.

The Peterborough Petes will select: C/LW: Frank Nighbor

Very pleased to add him to my team and to my second line!

I'll make sure to PM the next guy. Bio will come later.

superb.

I'm trying to figure out why he has broke the top 50 for two years in a row now, personally.

You do realize that his career didn't start in 1918 when the NHL did, right?

Well, I was not at all expecting to select this player, but he's out there, and to me he's clearly the BPA, so...here goes:

The Gwinnett Gladiators select defenseman Paul Coffey.

I have had Coffey three times now in the past six drafts I've been in (here and at leafscentral) - I don't "like" selecting him but it keeps getting to the point where he's the clear BPA and I don't really have a choice.

You keep proving that you are good at putting aside emotion or perceived negatives and just getting the best players early on.

Maybe, although I feel he's better defensively than Messier. Can't say the same about Clarke and Trottier, cause they are excellent in their own ends.

Messier and Trottier, definitely. With Clarke, it could go either way.

For my money, Clarke and Nighbor are the two best defensive forwards of all-time. The wealth of quotes supporting Nighbor's defensive excellence is overwhelming. Clarke's defensive stats, on the other hand, are so good that you read them and think there must be a mistake.

Actually, it is impossible to find that kind of offense in a defenseman short of Orr. I think the issue a lot of GM's have in judging Coffey's contributions is a problem of perspective. They think "Ok, he was a great offensive defenseman, but he was bad in his own end by ATD standards," and that is the end of the story. What's going on here is that most GMs underestimate the sheer scale of Coffey's offensive greatness. I'll say more on this later, but here's a little something to start. I'm going to post career top-10 scoring finishes for Paul Coffey and another player whose peak offensive output was almost exactly the same as Coffey's. Without looking it up, see if you can tell who the other player is:

Player A: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 10th

Paul Coffey: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th

Ooh, ooh, I know, I know.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Is that proper use of the word "usurp"? Anyway, I get your point and I agree. Same thing with my bios. That's why they are there... use them! Just add something else.

I was thinking of the French word ''usurper'', a sophisticated and clever word to say ''steal''. Yep, it probably dosn't make any sense in English

 

[seventieslord]

Coffey was awesome , his haters should watch some games again if they never saw him or forgot a bit about how of a quarterback he was.

Actually, strangely enough, Coffey wasn't a great quaterback compared to other offensive defensemen of his time, especially considering who he had on the PP with him. He was an awesome ES producer thanks to his speed.

With that said, I'm pretty sure he's at least an above average ATD 1st PP quarterback option, he's just not 2nd best there, as he is at ES.

Schmidt and Nighbor definitely look like comparable players. Schmidt was definitely the most abrasive and physical of the two. The better leader too. Both were supreme defensive forward. I'm not entirely sure of Nighbor offensive credential, but he might have been better than Schmidt. I know Schmidt was fantastic in the playoffs, but how about Nighbor? What else could be compared?

- Yes, Schmidt was definitely more physical and abrasive.

- Schmidt has more leadership qualities for sure. But Nighbor was the most important piece of a dynasty too, there has to be some leadership involved in that.

- Nighbor is on a whole other level from Schmidt defensively. It's not even close. Try to dig up quotes on Schmidt even half as glowing, and try to get even half as many as nik has shown us. Not gonna happen.

- Let me also add that Nighbor also outshines Schmidt offensively. My "consistency" studies are fairly good for comparison here since both guys played at a time of reasonably close competition (Nighbor's time was less competition, but he also had more teams across all leagues that counted towards my studies, Schmidt's career started 8 years after Nighbor's ended, but was purely in the O6 time, and in a time (pre-war, post-war) that wasn't the best for top end talent.

nighbor comes out as follows: 1-4-6-7-8, 2-5-7-8-11.
Schmidt is 1-1-3-5-6, 1-4-4-7-8.

If you assume that in those three years Schmidt missed, he could have been top-10 in goals and top-5 in assists, he'd be looking at 1-1-6-8-9, 1-7-7-10-11. those are pretty optimistic assumptions, though,

I would love to see the offensive comparative between Kelly and Coffey. I'll highly suspect that Coffey has better credential (Although Kelly was in another world defensively)

I would like to see it too, but I'm pretty sure Coffey would crush Kelly, and then you have to consider Kelly played forward for periods of time and lengths of time that aren't fully known right now.

Having Coffey on your team automatically eliminates certain types of team building strategies because he simply won't work in such systems. When you draft Coffey, you have to build around HIM, regardless if you have another player from a previous pick or not.

Disagree. Every team can use a rushing defenseman who can cut into the offensive zone like a knife through butter.

 

[nik jr]

imo, coffey was about average defensively.

i don't think the end of his career created or enhanced his reputation for weak D, at least not much. i think the end of his career diminished his reputation for great offense, which left his spotty D more apparent.

 

[EagleBelfour]

- Nighbor is on a whole other level from Schmidt defensively. It's not even close. Try to dig up quotes on Schmidt even half as glowing, and try to get even half as many as nik has shown us. Not gonna happen.

- Let me also add that Nighbor also outshines Schmidt offensively. My "consistency" studies are fairly good for comparison here since both guys played at a time of reasonably close competition (Nighbor's time was less competition, but he also had more teams across all leagues that counted towards my studies, Schmidt's career started 8 years after Nighbor's ended, but was purely in the O6 time, and in a time (pre-war, post-war) that wasn't the best for top end talent.

- Yea, a further look into Nighbor's career really shows how good he was defensively. I don't have any problem giving him a notch over Schmidt.

- What have you done differently than breaking the PCHA and NHA in half, like Dreakmur did? Those stats look appealing, but looking through old biographies of Nighbor, you definitely have more quotes on Schmidt offensive abilities than Nighbor.

 

[Sturminator]

I won't try to pretend I know more than I do on Paul Coffey and his time with the Oilers. I'm always willing to hear a good argument and change my mind. If I understand what you're writing BC, is that in his tenure with the Oilers (7 years), Coffey was an above-average defensive defenceman compare to his pear, right? If that's the case, Paul Coffey time in Edmonton is almost comparable to Red Kelly tenure with the Red Wings (Coffey better offensively, Kelly even better defensively). Kelly's legacy goes on with the Leafs, while Coffey legacy goes on with Pittsburgh and Detroit. Which mean that in the end, Kelly probably have a slight advantage on Coffey, but both are Top-20 players of All-Time.

I would definitely say that Coffey was an above-average defensive defenseman when compared to the average NHL defenseman of his time. There is another high-scoring defenseman from the 80's who was not, but Paul Coffey should never be lumped in with that guy. He was impossible to beat with speed, even if you had several steps on him, and was the terror of puck-possession teams. You couldn't beat him with the dump and chase because he would outrace you to the puck and either carry it behind the goal and out or make a brilliant transition pass to leave the zone. In that aspect of the game, Coffey was arguably on Orr's level: once he got his stick on the puck in the defensive zone, his team gained possession. This is an underrated but quite important aspect of defensive play.

The Soviets found this out in the 1984 Canada Cup, in which Coffey really shined against their speed and control based system. Coffey's brilliant 2-on-1 breakup (he knocked xxxx's centering pass out of the air) and counterattack (which Bossy tipped home) in overtime to win the semifinal game is legendary. Considering the drubbing Canada had taken from the Russians for the few years prior to that victory, it really was one of the biggest moments in Canadian international hockey history. Many people (inluding a bunch of the Flyers players he beat) think he should have won the Conn-Smythe in 1985 when the broke the record for defenseman playoff points and tied Gretzky with 11 points in the final.

Paul had fine hockey sense (he is one of the greatest playmakers of all time...of course he did), and he wasn't nearly as easily pushed around as people seem to assume. He was a very solid 6'0" 205 lbs. and quite strong on his skates. Anyway, there's a lot more to Paul Coffey than the treatment he normally gets around here. I'll come back to this discussion later.

 

[Sturminator]

Actually, strangely enough, Coffey wasn't a great quaterback compared to other offensive defensemen of his time, especially considering who he had on the PP with him. He was an awesome ES producer thanks to his speed.

With that said, I'm pretty sure he's at least an above average ATD 1st PP quarterback option, he's just not 2nd best there, as he is at ES.

True, although if you look at those powerplay-goals-on-ice-for numbers from the Oilers' salad days, you always see Gretzky and Coffey (often at the very top of the league) within a couple goals of each other...and then a huge gap to the next Oiler. Coffey even beat Gretz in that category one season. That Edmonton powerplay was basically the Gretzky-Coffey show, and they seem to have been equally important.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I would definitely say that Coffey was an above-average defensive defenseman when compared to the average NHL defenseman of his time.
[...]

I'm a little baffle here:

- Coffey is the second best O-Defenseman of All-Time
- He's average defensively on the context of the ATD
- He's one of the fastest player of all-time
- One of the best defenseman in transition of All-Time
- Fantastic at getting the puck in the D-Zone
- Far from soft on either zone
- Great offensive weapon on the PP

With a resume like this, why you don't view Coffey as a Top-20 player of All-Time, and why you wouldn't take him ahead of guys like Fetisov, Robinson and Park?

 

[seventieslord]

- They were pretty much equal defensively.
-

I came a little late to these conversations and I'm just answering this all in order, but... for the love of God, please don't say this! Much work has been done to show Nighbor is in a class by himself as far as defensive forwards go. Quotes supporting Schmidt's defense only appear to put him in a Messier category, maybe Trottier.

can someone post something about schmidt's defensive play?

i read it here, but nowhere else.

...and this is where someone tries and we find out that there's just not much out there; not nearly as much as there is for Nighbor.

 

[nik jr]

I'm a little baffle here:

- Coffey is the second best O-Defenseman of All-Time
- He's average defensively on the context of the ATD
- He's one of the fastest player of all-time
- One of the best defenseman in transition of All-Time
- Fantastic at getting the puck in the D-Zone
- Far from soft on either zone
- Great offensive weapon on the PP

With a resume like this, why you don't view Coffey as a Top-20 player of All-Time, and why you wouldn't take him ahead of guys like Fetisov, Robinson and Park?

imo, coffey is below average defensively in ATD and was soft. coffey was not great at getting the puck in the defensive zone if an opponent had the puck, or if he had to fight for the puck on the boards.

 

[jarek]

I'm a little baffle here:

- Coffey is the second best O-Defenseman of All-Time
- He's average defensively on the context of the ATD
- He's one of the fastest player of all-time
- One of the best defenseman in transition of All-Time
- Fantastic at getting the puck in the D-Zone
- Far from soft on either zone
- Great offensive weapon on the PP

With a resume like this, why you don't view Coffey as a Top-20 player of All-Time, and why you wouldn't take him ahead of guys like Fetisov, Robinson and Park?

ATD politics.

 

[overpass]

Coffey is a unique player in this draft. His offence at even strength was awesome and second only to Orr among dmen. My questions about him arise from the fact that he was also on the ice for a very high number of ES goals against, even in his prime. It suggests he was trading off defence for offence. OTOH, the numbers I looked at are regular season only. The Oilers as a team ha better defensive numbers in theplayoffs, so maybe Coffey could play defence when he wanted to.

 

[Sturminator]

I'm a little baffle here:

- Coffey is the second best O-Defenseman of All-Time

Yes. Easily.

- He's average defensively on the context of the ATD

Not sure about that. I think he was above average in the real NHL, which makes him below average on an ATD top pairing, even for a puckmover. I think he is average defensively for an ATD 2nd pairing puckmover, but on a top pairing...he's definitely below average.

- He's one of the fastest player of all-time
- One of the best defenseman in transition of All-Time
- Fantastic at getting the puck in the D-Zone

Yes to all of that.

- Far from soft on either zone

Well...no, Coffey wasn't soft, and as I said he was very strong on his skates, but he wasn't a physical player, either. He is tremendous in transition and nobody is going to outskate him, but once a team gets set up on the cycle, power forwards down low are going to give him problems. This is an issue in the ATD moreso in real life because of how rare quality power forwards are in the real NHL. Here, everybody's got one. What nik said is absolutely correct. Coffey will have trouble dealing with cycling teams in an ATD.

- Great offensive weapon on the PP

Yes.

With a resume like this, why you don't view Coffey as a Top-20 player of All-Time, and why you wouldn't take him ahead of guys like Fetisov, Robinson and Park?

I probably would take him ahead of Park if forced to choose. I do view his career, in a vacuum, as superior to Robinson's, though by a small enough margin that I would still choose the Big Bird first in an ATD. Fetisov, I don't know about. I've always had a hard time getting a read on his greatness. I'd probably take him over Coffey in an ATD, as well, to tell the truth. Is Paul Coffey a top-20 all-time NHL player? There's certainly a good argument, and a lot of hockey experts put him in the top 20. I dunno...if he's top 20, he's marginal. As I said, I'd take him before Trottier because I think his overall contribution to "scoring more goals than the other team" was greater, but I don't have Trottier in the top-20, either. I would probably place Coffey in the 25-30 range all-time, along with Cyclone Taylor, who I believe is his equal, though the ability to deploy Taylor at positions other than defenseman/rover - most notably left wing - makes him a touch more valuable in the ATD.

But yes, Paul Coffey's placement in terms of all-time greatness is definitely a notch higher than he gets drafted in the ATD. I think a lot of GMs are afraid to touch him. We'll see if Rick and I can translate that into success.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Damn, sucks to see Coffey go right before my pick - and to a division rival of all people! I've thought he was the BPA for a while now, and thought about taking him when I took Sakic but decided it would be safer to start with a center and get him in the second round if he fell. I was really looking forward to building a high-skill team around Coffey (and other puck moving dmen).

Oh well, there goes that plan.

I have to go back to the drawing board, and I'm not sure how long it will take me to come up with a new plan. I'm at school right now too, which makes things a lot more difficult. I may pick in the next 20 minutes, but no promises, it might be much later than that.

I wouldn't mind moving down 5-10 spots - that would keep the draft moving too. Anyone want to send me an offer?

 

[seventieslord]

Below what average? The average of the defensemen taken in the top 40? Ok. Below the average of the league he actually played in? No way..

Not getting into a conversation about Coffey's real life defensive ability, because the opinions seriously range from "he was above average, he was just no Bourque" to "he was terrible, one of the worst in the league" - however, in the ATD he will be one of the worst when all is said and done.

my ex-co-GM jarek always did his best to downplay this, and I kept advising him not to bother. Coffey is what he is. Just embrace it!

As for the part about coming back to cover when he gets caught up ice... Coffey was GREAT at that, and I wouldn't even say that the worst thing about his defense was that he was a gambler who sometimes lost; it was that he just wasn't that great at defending once in the zone and in position to do so.

imo, coffey was about average defensively.

i don't think the end of his career created or enhanced his reputation for weak D, at least not much. i think the end of his career diminished his reputation for great offense, which left his spotty D more apparent.

well said.

- What have you done differently than breaking the PCHA and NHA in half, like Dreakmur did? Those stats look appealing, but looking through old biographies of Nighbor, you definitely have more quotes on Schmidt offensive abilities than Nighbor.

The figures I used are based on combining all 2 (or 3, for three seasons) major leagues and consolidating the leaderboards based on the assumptions that the leagues were of relatively equal strength. I like that they don't attempt to be too "precise", as in, if you were 4th in the NHL, it doesn't attempt to extrapolate that to a "7th" in an imagined consolidated league, but rather, just a "top-10", which is more than reasonable.

I would definitely say that Coffey was an above-average defensive defenseman when compared to the average NHL defenseman of his time. There is another high-scoring defenseman from the 80's who was not, but Paul Coffey should never be lumped in with that guy. He was impossible to beat with speed, even if you had several steps on him, and was the terror of puck-possession teams. You couldn't beat him with the dump and chase because he would outrace you to the puck and either carry it behind the goal and out or make a brilliant transition pass to leave the zone. In that aspect of the game, Coffey was arguably on Orr's level: once he got his stick on the puck in the defensive zone, his team gained possession. This is an underrated but quite important aspect of defensive play.

The Soviets found this out in the 1984 Canada Cup, in which Coffey really shined against their speed and control based system. Coffey's brilliant 2-on-1 breakup (he knocked xxxx's centering pass out of the air) and counterattack (which Bossy tipped home) in overtime to win the semifinal game is legendary. Considering the drubbing Canada had taken from the Russians for the few years prior to that victory, it really was one of the biggest moments in Canadian international hockey history. Many people (inluding a bunch of the Flyers players he beat) think he should have won the Conn-Smythe in 1985 when the broke the record for defenseman playoff points and tied Gretzky with 11 points in the final.

Paul had fine hockey sense (he is one of the greatest playmakers of all time...of course he did), and he wasn't nearly as easily pushed around as people seem to assume. He was a very solid 6'0" 205 lbs. and quite strong on his skates. Anyway, there's a lot more to Paul Coffey than the treatment he normally gets around here. I'll come back to this discussion later.

By the way, have you seen my post from the offseason bios thread? There's probably lots in there you can use.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=821911

ATD politics.

oh please. Don't underestimate the value of stopping the oppositon from scoring, something Robinson, Park and Fetisov can all do at an elite level. There's nothing wrong with thinking that they are "overall" more valuable than Coffey.

I just take exception when guys like LL say Coffey's the worst #1 D in the draft...

Coffey is a unique player in this draft. His offence at even strength was awesome and second only to Orr among dmen. My questions about him arise from the fact that he was also on the ice for a very high number of ES goals against, even in his prime. It suggests he was trading off defence for offence. OTOH, the numbers I looked at are regular season only. The Oilers as a team ha better defensive numbers in theplayoffs, so maybe Coffey could play defence when he wanted to.

That was exactly his reputation. Check out some of the scouting reports on him in the offseason bio.

 

[chaosrevolver]

So Nighbor or Schmidt as first line center?

I'm thinking Nighbor just because he's probably a better two-way option and Schmidt would center my second line as a physical force, who's responsible in his own end and can light nets up too.

 

[seventieslord]

So Nighbor or Schmidt as first line center?

I'm thinking Nighbor just because he's probably a better two-way option and Schmidt would center my second line as a physical force, who's responsible in his own end and can light nets up too.

It could really go either way. A lot of guys like to make their second line more of a "two-way" line and if doing that, I'd choose Nighbor for the 2nd line.

It also has a lot to do with who the wingers are. Is one particularly weak defensively? Nighbor would do a better job covering for him. Or is the point to get strong defensive wingers to form a cohesive unit?

Yeah, really it could go either way.

 

[Stoneberg]

I was down to Park, Chelios and Coffey when I decided to go with a defenseman at 35. I couldn't resist taking a guy who was both a great pp qb and great defensively in Park. I certainly wouldn't contest the fact that Coffey had a better career but, as seventies said, I thought Park brought more "overall" value for the ATD.

I'm around again to make my pick, so whoever got my list from Dreak need not worry about it.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

The Vancouver Maroons select right winger Bill Cook

someone PM the next for me please

 

[Stoneberg]

Damn.. nice pick. I'm gonna be a while now lol.

 

[seventieslord]

Cook's a beauty.

Cue all the old, knowledgeable GMs coming in to add "I don't see what makes Cook any worse than Guy Lafleur"...

...an argument to which I have no logical response.

 

[Sturminator]

The Vancouver Maroons select right winger Bill Cook

someone PM the next for me please

Nice choice. Cook was a terrific player. He's behind Jagr in terms of offense (though less so when his last season in the WCHL is counted, as it should be, as an elite offensive season - I think he scored 2x as many goals as the next guy in the league that season), but in terms of the complete package he brings to an ATD franchise, they're on about the same level, IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have a lot of catching up to do.

First, I'll say that Chelios was a fantastic pick, selected as late as he was. 3 Norris trophies over prime Ray Bourque - in the running for best offensive and defensive defenseman in the league in his prime (along with Bourque, well ahead of several others). Clearly a better player than MacInnis, and they both played at the same time.

And after his offensive prime, he continued as an elite defensive player.

Definitely one of the best PKers in the draft.

I'm really not sure why most GMs have a perceived gap between Larry Robinson and Chris Chelios, to be honest.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I have a lot of catching up to do.

First, I'll say that Chelios was a fantastic pick, selected as late as he was. 3 Norris trophies over prime Ray Bourque - in the running for best offensive and defensive defenseman in the league in his prime (along with Bourque, well ahead of several others). Clearly a better player than MacInnis, and they both played at the same time.

I still think I'd flip a coin over MacInnis and Chelios.

I'm really not sure why most GMs have a perceived gap between Larry Robinson and Chris Chelios, to be honest.

Maybe cause they also own hotels and are afraid Chelios will trash rooms?

Seriously, Chelios was a bonehead for the first 2/3rds of his career lol... great great player but lots of stupid penalties and behaviour. I'll take Big Bird any day over Chelios as great as he was..