ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[monster_bertuzzi]

not to mention free coffee and bagels!!!

Pffft....bagels....

Timbit's are where it's at.

 

[chaosrevolver]

The Peterborough Petes will select: C/LW: Frank Nighbor

Very pleased to add him to my team and to my second line!

I'll make sure to PM the next guy. Bio will come later.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

The Peterborough Petes will select: C/LW: Frank Nighbor

Very pleased to add him to my team and to my second line!

I'll make sure to PM the next guy. Bio will come later.

I was really hoping he'd finally crack the first round. I strongly wonder what separates him from the Trottiers, Clarkes and Messiers...

 

[chaosrevolver]

I was really hoping he'd finally crack the first round. I strongly wonder what separates him from the Trottiers, Clarkes and Messiers...

I definitely think he's close to their tier. Maybe not as good offensively? Maybe just not as much info?

With guys who played so long ago, it can be tough but there is some overwheling evidence saying he's worthy of a first round pick. I wanted Chelios or Pilote but after they went I said I need to get a forward for the second line. While I could go for a winger, hard to pass up a steal like Nighbor.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I was really hoping he'd finally crack the first round. I strongly wonder what separates him from the Trottiers, Clarkes and Messiers...

I'm trying to figure out why he has broke the top 50 for two years in a row now, personally.

 

[chaosrevolver]

I'm trying to figure out why he has broke the top 50 for two years in a row now, personally.

Imo, he's as good as Schmidt if not better. Complete, two-way player who with recent evidence of the past draft or two, has risen high on my draft lists. Impresses me the more I read about him. I'll elaborate on that later with my bio.

 

[Dreakmur]

I was really hoping he'd finally crack the first round. I strongly wonder what separates him from the Trottiers, Clarkes and Messiers...

The most obvious difference there would be that he completely lacks any sort of physical aspect to his game.

 

[Dreakmur]

Imo, he's as good as Schmidt if not better. Complete, two-way player who with recent evidence of the past draft or two, has risen high on my draft lists. Impresses me the more I read about him. I'll elaborate on that later with my bio.

I have him in the same group as Sakic, Yzerman, Apps, and Schmidt.... which is behind the group of Messier, Clarke, Trottier.

 

[Sturminator]

Well, I was not at all expecting to select this player, but he's out there, and to me he's clearly the BPA, so...here goes:

The Gwinnett Gladiators select defenseman Paul Coffey.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Ouch, HHH....

 

[chaosrevolver]

The most obvious difference there would be that he completely lacks any sort of physical aspect to his game.

Maybe, although I feel he's better defensively than Messier. Can't say the same about Clarke and Trottier, cause they are excellent in their own ends.

 

[chaosrevolver]

Well, I was not at all expecting to select this player, but he's out there, and to me he's clearly the BPA, so...here goes:

The Gwinnett Gladiators select defenseman Paul Coffey.

I thought about him but I just couldn't bear to select him. Not a fan of him at all. Definitely one of the best players available though..hard to find that kind of offense in a defenseman, unless you have numero uno overall.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, I was not at all expecting to select this player, but he's out there, and to me he's clearly the BPA, so...here goes:

The Gwinnett Gladiators select defenseman Paul Coffey.

There goes HHH's list. Sorry all, but we'll have to wait until he gets back... but, kudos to him for making an effort

 

[Sturminator]

I thought about him but I just couldn't bear to select him. Not a fan of him at all. Definitely one of the best players available though..hard to find that kind of offense in a defenseman, unless you have numero uno overall.

Actually, it is impossible to find that kind of offense in a defenseman short of Orr. I think the issue a lot of GM's have in judging Coffey's contributions is a problem of perspective. They think "Ok, he was a great offensive defenseman, but he was bad in his own end by ATD standards," and that is the end of the story. What's going on here is that most GMs underestimate the sheer scale of Coffey's offensive greatness. I'll say more on this later, but here's a little something to start. I'm going to post career top-10 scoring finishes for Paul Coffey and another player whose peak offensive output was almost exactly the same as Coffey's. Without looking it up, see if you can tell who the other player is:

Player A: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 10th

Paul Coffey: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th

 

[Sturminator]

Maybe, although I feel he's better defensively than Messier. Can't say the same about Clarke and Trottier, cause they are excellent in their own ends.

Nighbor is much better defensively than Messier. He definitely belongs in this part of the draft. Where he should ultimately fall with relation to guys like Messier, Schmidt, Lalonde, Sakic, Trottier, etc. is a matter of taste. It's not hard to make a case for Nighbor over all of those guys, and anecdotal evidence from tons of old-time sources suggest that he was considered the best hockey player of all-time as late as world war II by many people who saw him play.

Dig up my posts on Nighbor from ATD#11 if you need to convince people of his offensive output.

 

[Dreakmur]

I haven't compared them enough to put up a big argument, but off the top of my head, I might put Red Kelly ahead of Coffey... but maybe not

Once the top 10 defensemen are gone, Coffey is one of the many who could go 11th.

(Orr, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom, Kelly, Potvin, Fetisov, Robinson, and Park)

Chelios, Pilote, MacInnis, Coffey, and a few others could all go 11th.... just depends which style you like.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Actually, it is impossible to find that kind of offense in a defenseman short of Orr. I think the issue a lot of GM's have in judging Coffey's contributions is a problem of perspective. They think "Ok, he was a great offensive defenseman, but he was bad in his own end by ATD standards," and that is the end of the story. What's going on here is that most GMs underestimate the sheer scale of Coffey's offensive greatness. I'll say more on this later, but here's a little something to start. I'm going to post career top-10 scoring finishes for Paul Coffey and another player whose peak offensive output was almost exactly the same as Coffey's. Without looking it up, see if you can tell who the other player is:

Player A: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 10th

Paul Coffey: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th

My first thought is Yzerman, but he never got a 2nd place... Messier?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Coffey was awesome , his haters should watch some games again if they never saw him or forgot a bit about how of a quarterback he was.

 

[Sturminator]

My first thought is Yzerman, but he never got a 2nd place... Messier?

Yes, it was Messier.

It helps, when putting Paul Coffey's defensive..ahem...talents in perspective, to remember that he produced as much offensively as a bunch of 1st round forwards. I could do a similar comparison of Coffey and Bryan Trottier, and except for Trots' single Art Ross (when he was, himself, an average defensive center) vs. a 3rd place finish for Coffey, they come out almost the same, as well.

You have to change the lens of perspective a bit with Paul Coffey. If you think of him as a pure defenseman, then his defensive weakness in relation to other top ATD defensemen will drive you mad. But if you start comparing him to forwards you realize what a ridiculously dominant 2-way player he actually was.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I'll agree with the rest of the group that Nighbor deserve to be acknowledge in the same group as Schmidt, Apps, Yzerman and Sakic. He was just a fantastic, all-around centerman.

A team with Milt Schmidt and Frank Nighbor down the middle is definitely scary.

Schmidt and Nighbor definitely look like comparable players. Schmidt was definitely the most abrasive and physical of the two. The better leader too. Both were supreme defensive forward. I'm not entirely sure of Nighbor offensive credential, but he might have been better than Schmidt. I know Schmidt was fantastic in the playoffs, but how about Nighbor? What else could be compared?

 

[jarek]

Coffey was basically both the 4th and 5th forward on the ice for any team he played on. He's easily among the fastest players of all time, and definitely the most dangerous defenseman with the puck on his stick after Orr. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Coffey helped out Gretzky and co. put up their ridiculous numbers by more than just a little bit.

 

[EagleBelfour]

You have to change the lens of perspective a bit with Paul Coffey. If you think of him as a pure defenseman, then his defensive weakness in relation to other top ATD defensemen will drive you mad. But if you start comparing him to forwards you realize what a ridiculously dominant 2-way player he actually was.

I never saw Coffey play with Edmonton, but I would call him an offensive defenseman before a two-way defenseman.

I would love to see the offensive comparative between Kelly and Coffey. I'll highly suspect that Coffey has better credential (Although Kelly was in another world defensively)

He's definitely a nice selection if you are able to build around him, which I believe Sturm can do.

 

[jarek]

Having Coffey on your team automatically eliminates certain types of team building strategies because he simply won't work in such systems. When you draft Coffey, you have to build around HIM, regardless if you have another player from a previous pick or not.

 

[Dreakmur]

Having Coffey on your team automatically eliminates certain types of team building strategies because he simply won't work in such systems. When you draft Coffey, you have to build around HIM, regardless if you have another player from a previous pick or not.

I'm not sure I'd agree with all of that.

Like many other players, Coffey needs to be complimented and surrounded properly to be fully effective.

 

[Sturminator]

Coffey was basically both the 4th and 5th forward on the ice for any team he played on. He's easily among the fastest players of all time, and definitely the most dangerous defenseman with the puck on his stick after Orr. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Coffey helped out Gretzky and co. put up their ridiculous numbers by more than just a little bit.

Clearly. Coffey actually got Hart votes three years in a row at his peak (no mean feat on those Oilers teams what with Gretzky and all...), peaking at 4th in the voting in 85-86. He actually got a 1st place vote and four 4th place votes that season, which means that even a few writers outside of Edmonton thought he was better than Lemieux at the time, and when 2-way play is taken into account, he may well have been. Again, considering that he played in Gretzky's shadow, that's damned impressive.

A lot of people also seem to forget (or never knew) how close the competition between Coffey and Bourque was when they were both at their respective peaks, or how Coffey came back from injuries in 94-95 and led Detroit in both scoring and +/-, in the process beating peak Bourque and Chelios for the Norris and notching another well-deserved 4th place Hart finish.

This guy's career has been really underappreciated in the ATD, and I am always baffled by statements like "I really don't care for Paul Coffey" by people who I know are too young to have seen him at his peak (likely even the 94-95 version, nevermind the 85-86 version). Coffey is essentially the modern Cyclone Taylor, only you can't put him at forward.