ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[hfboardsuser]

It's still a work-in-progress, and will be until the G&M archive comes back online, but here's my bio for Syl Apps Sr.

 

[seventieslord]

I am a newbie but I would, depending on how I was attempting to build my team.

Chelios does have 2 more Norris trophies but MacInnis was the best player on a Stanley Cup winner, did win a Norris too, and is one of only 5 defensemen to ever crack 100 points.

Also, for post season allstars Chelios has 8 and MacInnis has 7.

I think they are close to equal value depending on the team they are on. One is better defensively and more physical and one is more offensive, that's all.

I think both are particularly valuable in this draft because they are right hand shots too.

Just one note on Chelios - his 1992 playoff was arguably even better than MacInnis' in 1989... he just didn't win the cup. Running into Lemieux will do that.

on another note... Brodeur, the 7th goalie selected. I feel like we are getting somewhere.

 

[Stoneberg]

I really didn't expect HHH to grab Cook, thought for sure he'd go D or G. After an hour of mulling it over I figured it would be to my advantage to have the best goalie in my division.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Just one note on Chelios - his 1992 playoff was arguably even better than MacInnis' in 1989... he just didn't win the cup. Running into Lemieux will do that.

Yeah that was a great run by Chelios as well but MacInnis played out of this world in his Conn Smythe playoff run. I remember I think it was a hockey news cover about him afterwards calling him the Flame-thrower or some silly thing. Good times.

Also, the Kings weren't quite the same as the cup-bound Pens obviously, but MacInnis did beat a still prime level Gretzky along the way.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I really didn't expect HHH to grab Cook, thought for sure he'd go D or G. After an hour of mulling it over I figured it would be to my advantage to have the best goalie in my division.

Despite the fact that I think Brodeur's career numbers cause him to look better than he actually is.. he's still a very good and very consistent workhorse goalie!

 

[seventieslord]

Yep, and since all the goalies have been more or less selected in the right order (IMO), then if Stoneberg was the first in his division to grab one, he "should" have the best in the division (two are arguable)

 

[jarek]

Ugh.. so are we scrapping the undrafted player rule? Because this is the worst it's ever been.

 

[seventieslord]

Ugh.. so are we scrapping the undrafted player rule? Because this is the worst it's ever been.

are you caught up?

We've spent all morning talking about Coffey, NacInnis, Chelios, brodeur, Lafleur, Nighbor and Schmidt... all are drafted.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree that those finished are not quite elite, but back to the original comparison to MacInnis...how many years was MacInnis considered a top 5 or top 10 defensive defenseman? I'm thinking that it was less than the times Chelios was top 5 or 10 offensively.

Zero to one times. He might have been considered Top 5-10 defensively in the one year he won the Norris.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Zero to one times. He might have been considered Top 5-10 defensively in the one year he won the Norris.

A 7 time post season allstar defenseman spanning 15 years defenseman was only top 10 defensively once?

Did you guys never stay up late when he played in Calgary or what? hahaha

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Contrast Chelios' PIM with another sometimes nasty, physical defenseman like Denis Potvin and it really stands out. Potvin is every bit as physical if not more so and averages way less.

Chelios is a great player for sure but he took a lot of boneheaded penalties over the majority of his career. (in my opinion)

Chelios definitely his share of bad penalties, but how many of his PIMs were from fights and coincidentals? I'm not going to do the work, but a simple PIM comparison between players like that always exaggerates the difference. Chelios definitely got into his fair share of fights in the 1980s.

IMO, Harvey, Lidstrom, and Chelios are equal defensively in most aspects of the game, 10/10s defensively, if you will. Harvey combines physical intimidation and discipline in a way the other two don't, however, which makes more valuable to some extent (the relative values of physical play and discipline in the ATD vary greatly from GM to GM, but we all agree they are factors).

 

[Hedberg]

Chelios definitely his share of bad penalties, but how many of his PIMs were from fights and coincidentals?

He fought between 6 to 8 times a season between 84-85 and 93-94 (expect for a 4 fight season in 87-88). I don't know about co-incidental minors or misconducts.

 

[DaveG]

A 7 time post season allstar defenseman spanning 15 years defenseman was only top 10 defensively once?

Did you guys never stay up late when he played in Calgary or what? hahaha

Not that I am discrediting MacInnis, but you have to look at his competition as well, it was outright insane for most of his career. Some of the names I considered better then him defensively haven't been drafted yet, but among those who have been: Bourque, Lidstrom, Fetisov, and Chelios were all 4 better defensively IMO, all with significant career overlap with MacInnis. It's really not a stretch to say he wasn't a top 5 defensive defenseman most years, but he also was very deserving of his All Star nods. The competition at that position in his era is incredibly deep.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A 7 time post season allstar defenseman spanning 15 years defenseman was only top 10 defensively once?

That's what I said. We all know post-season all-star voting takes both offense and defense into account. If MacInnis was elite defensively, his coach would have strictly matched him against the opponent's best, and I never remember that happening. He was used in all situations, but the true elite defensive defensemen are primarily matched against opponent's best lines, no matter how good they are offensively (see Lidstrom, etc).

And no, I didn't really see much of MacInnis in Calgary. My memories are mostly of him in St. Louis, but I have read multiple accounts that he got better defensively with age, not worse.

The HOH board has coach's polls for 1984, 1993, and 1994 (unfortunately nothing for the late 80s), and MacInnis did not get any votes for "best defensive defenseman" like Chelios did for "best offensive defenseman."

When MacInnis scored 103 points in 90-91, he lost the Norris to 94 point Ray Bourque. (Chris Chelios was 3rd btw, despite "only" scoring 64 points, well behind several other defensemen including Coffey).

With 20-30 teams in the worldwide talent pool, being top 10 in any category is a huge achievement.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Chelios definitely his share of bad penalties, but how many of his PIMs were from fights and coincidentals? I'm not going to do the work, but a simple PIM comparison between players like that always exaggerates the difference. Chelios definitely got into his fair share of fights in the 1980s.

I'm not going to put much into it either cause I don't care too much hehe.. According to hockeyfights in the whole 80s Chelios has 22 regular season fights listed.

In the year he had 282 PIMs (92-93) he had only 3 fights listed.

In his highest year for fights on there (88-89) Chelios had 8 fights.

In Potvins highest year for fights he had 6 (74-75 I think it said).

He did fight more often than Potvin, though, but not enough to explain the difference.

IMO, Harvey, Lidstrom, and Chelios are equal defensively in most aspects of the game, 10/10s defensively, if you will. Harvey combines physical intimidation and discipline in a way the other two don't, however, which makes more valuable to some extent (the relative values of physical play and discipline in the ATD vary greatly from GM to GM, but we all agree they are factors).

Yeah its definitely Lidstrom then Harvey then Chelios for the physical scale. I don't remember Harvey being thought of as a really physical guy - just when need be. Maybe I'm totally off base on that one but I thought he was a very cool cucumber out there.

 

[Hedberg]

I'm not going to put much into either cause I don't care too much hehe.. According to hockeyfights in the whole 80s Chelios has 22 regular season fights listed.

Drop Your Gloves credits him with 34 fights in the 1980s. I'm not sure which is more accurate. Regardless, a lot of his PIMs aren't coming from fights.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brodeur is basically Glenn Hall with more playoff success, in my opinion, and should be ranked accordingly.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Not that I am discrediting MacInnis, but you have to look at his competition as well, it was outright insane for most of his career. Some of the names I considered better then him defensively haven't been drafted yet, but among those who have been: Bourque, Lidstrom, XXXXX, and Chelios were all 4 better defensively IMO, all with significant career overlap with MacInnis. It's really not a stretch to say he wasn't a top 5 defensive defenseman most years, but he also was very deserving of his All Star nods. The competition at that position in his era is incredibly deep.

Top 5 sure that is really tough.

Top 10 though?

Lidstrom doesn't come into the picture until the mid-90s as a top flight defender. XXXXX wasn't in the league until what..89, 90? And by that point the XXXXX, Potvins etc. are all gone as prime players. You replace them with Lidstrom and XXXXX etc. but after those who was consistently better from 5 through 10?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Drop Your Gloves credits him with 34 fights in the 1980s. I'm not sure which is more accurate. Regardless, a lot of his PIMs aren't coming from fights.

I did break out regular season, the other site did have more fights for him listed as playoff ones so maybe that is why they are different.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah its definitely Lidstrom then Harvey then Chelios for the physical scale. I don't remember Harvey being thought of as a really physical guy - just when need be. Maybe I'm totally off base on that one but I thought he was a very cool cucumber out there.

Harvey has a rep as a cool cucumber, but that seems to be more because he got away with it (I believe it was sturminator who called Harvey's physical/dirty play "calculated"). There was an article written by star forward during Harvey's era criticizing the NHL for the prevalence of potentially life threatening spearing, and Harvey was listed as one of the main culprits (as was Gordie Howe).

Chelios is definitely more physical here, though (one of a handful of players here in Eddie Shore's class when it comes to intimidation IMO).

 

[Hedberg]

I did break out regular season, the other site did have more fights for him listed as playoff ones so maybe that is why they are different.

Actually, looking closer, they're including pre-season

The only defence I think possible of Chelios' PIMs is perhaps he took a way more penalties when the games were no longer close, but that seems like a huge stretch.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 sure that is really tough.

Top 10 though?

Lidstrom doesn't come into the picture until the mid-90s as a top flight defender. Fetisov wasn't in the league until what..89, 90? And by that point the XXXs, Potvins etc. are all gone as prime players. You replace them with Lidstrom and XXX etc. but after those who was consistently better from 5 through 10?

In one post, you both mention 2 undrafteds and then ask others to do the same....

 

[BillyShoe1721]

People are seriously starting to annoy me with the mentioning of undrafteds. Jesus Christ, it's not that hard. Get rid of their name until they are selected, and then debate your topic all you want.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Brodeur is basically Glenn Hall with more playoff success, in my opinion, and should be ranked accordingly.

Hall seems better in the regular season to me. Both had competition from all time greats (Plante/Sawchuk and Hasek/Roy), but Hall has a far better All-Star record. (Not saying that means Hall should be ranked higher, but just that this is closer than you stated).

 

[BraveCanadian]

That's what I said. We all know post-season all-star voting takes both offense and defense into account. If MacInnis was elite defensively, his coach would have strictly matched him against the opponent's best, and I never remember that happening. He was used in all situations, but the true elite defensive defensemen are primarily matched against opponent's best lines, no matter how good they are offensively (see Lidstrom, etc).

And no, I didn't really see much of MacInnis in Calgary. My memories are mostly of him in St. Louis, but I have read multiple accounts that he got better defensively with age, not worse.

I do think he got better defensively as he went for sure. Early on especially he was not very good at all.

However, he was a good defenseman from I dunno 24-25 or so on.. I still think he improved more later though too.

In his prime he played around half the game almost every game on the top pairing in Calgary with XXXXX. When you play half the game you're going to be going against everyone.

Calgary did have the luxury of XXXXX and ummm XXXXXX(?) who they could use as primarily defensive guys too, though.

And didn't he play on the same pairing as XXXXX a lot in St. Louis? Are you telling me that pairing didn't get used against the other teams best?

The HOH board has coach's polls for 1984, 1993, and 1994 (unfortunately nothing for the late 80s), and MacInnis did not get any votes for "best defensive defenseman" like Chelios did for "best offensive defenseman."

When MacInnis scored 103 points in 90-91, he lost the Norris to 94 point Ray Bourque. (Chris Chelios was 3rd btw, despite "only" scoring 64 points, well behind several other defensemen including Coffey).

As I said earlier in the thread that 90-91 Norris is pretty debatable in my opinion. Not to say that Bourque wasn't deserving or anything but it could easily have gone to MacInnis and no one would be crying foul.