At time of draft - who would be drafted first? Eichel/Matthews/Mack/Dahlin/Lafreniere?

[Tad Mikowsky]

It's because some people hate it when a Leafs prospect does better than expected and there needs to be reasons why it's wrong.

Ah, the classic everyone hates the Leafs card is played, yet again, when someone disagrees why your precious player isn’t the bestest ever.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

I think MacK was the most hyped

 

[LeafsNation75]

Ah, the classic everyone hates the Leafs card is played, yet again, when someone disagrees why your precious player isn’t the bestest ever.

The stats clearly show Matthews was better than Eichel in all those tournaments prior to being drafted. So what else is the reason for others saying that's wrong?

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Yes, my quote discusses the USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC, which are the leagues/tournaments that both played in before being drafted. Matthews outperformed Eichel in all of them.

Yes, but what you fail to realize is, that in this thread it's.....

Worse stats > Better stats

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

It was a short tournament where every single game/win meant everything. Therefore, you put your best players together to optimize your chances. Not really ideal over the course of an 82 game season.

Matthews came into that tournament as potentially the 13th forward, some even saying he was only selected because it was being held in Toronto. He quickly proved everyone wrong, almost as quickly as he worked his way up the lineup.

Point missed completely.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

The stats clearly show Matthews was better than Eichel in all those tournaments prior to being drafted. So what else is the reason for others saying that's wrong?

Why is it whenever someone disagrees about a Leaf player not being as good as you think, that’s the default answer? It single handily ruins any discussion.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Why is it whenever someone disagrees about a Leaf player not being as good as you think, that’s the default answer? It single handily ruins any discussion.

It's not about disagreeing with me that a Leafs player isn't good. The numbers clearly show Matthews was better than Eichel in those tournaments before they were drafted. So it's funny how people keep arguing those numbers are wrong and saying Eichel was better.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

It's not about disagreeing with me that a Leafs player isn't good. The numbers clearly show Matthews was better than Eichel in those tournaments before they were drafted. So it's funny how people keep arguing those numbers are wrong and saying Eichel was better.

But that is exactly what it is. Every thread you do. It’s the same that the Leaf player is always the bestest option and if anyone disagrees they’re a big bad leaf hater. It doesn’t matter, how it’s discussed either, because that’s what it boils down to.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Point missed completely.

You had no point, so nothing to miss.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I think Dekes' point is you can't compare their stats from the same year, because Eichel is a year older. There's (obviously) a lot of development that happens in a year, when you're comparing someone who's 16 vs 17.

So it's literally true that Eichel outscored Matthews 10-7 (in the same number of games) in the 2014 WJC-18 tournament. But Eichel was 17 years old, and a year away from being drafted. Matthews was 16 years old, and 2 years away from being drafted. If you compare their performance in the tournament at age 16 vs age 16 (in both cases - two years away from being drafted), and then age 17 vs age 17 (in both cases - one year away from being drafted), Matthews is ahead in both situations.

Maybe the counter-argument is you can't compare the different years (ie 2013 when Eichel was 16 vs 2014 when Matthews was 16). Maybe the tournament was much higher-scoring in 2014 - I don't know, I haven't checked. Or maybe the competition was tougher in 2014 - again, I'm not saying this is the case, just brainstorming ideas.

The point is - both posters are correct in saying that their numbers are accurate. That's because they're two different types of comparisons.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

I think Dekes' point is you can't compare their stats from the same year, because Eichel is a year older. There's (obviously) a lot of development that happens in a year, when you're comparing someone who's 16 vs 17.

So it's literally true that Eichel outscored Matthews 10-7 (in the same number of games) in the 2014 WJC-18 tournament. But Eichel was 17 years old, and a year away from being drafted. Matthews was 16 years old, and 2 years away from being drafted. If you compare their performance in the tournament at age 16 vs age 16 (in both cases - two years away from being drafted), and then age 17 vs age 17 (in both cases - one year away from being drafted), Matthews is ahead in both situations.

This would be obvious to anyone with any type of objectivity.

Such an odd thread.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I will just say this, if Matthews did not miss the 2015 draft by 2 days. This would all be a moot point. When he played when Eichel played predraft. They faced the same competition, had the same teammates, played in the same tournaments. Yes, we can factor in Matthews was 10.5 months younger. Yes, we can factor in he was practically 2015 draft eligible. So I believe this is for people to decide for themselves. Some people are making too much of the wasn't his draft year without admitting Matthews would have been drafted in 2015 had he been born 2 days earlier. The margin is slim. If one wanted to say he was 10.5 months younger when Eichel outscored him. I am fine with this context. It is the truth. But to stubbornly hold to the falsehood that Matthews outscored Eichel in every tournament they played in when this is not true. Context has to be injected. I never compared other seasons, they do not reflect increased scoring and quality competition. I just mentioned Jack Hughes he had a better PPG 112 points in 50 games than Matthews season. I don't see NJ fans making the same argument of Hughes is better. This is when it gets murky when people's rules change for all different players. But if I made that claim, Hughes is better than Matthews predraft. I would expect little kick back from people using the same criteria here for Matthews.

I asked you this before and you never responded, so I will ask it one last time. These stats during their time with the US National Development Team show Matthews had the better numbers compared to Eichel. So how can you say Eichel had the better numbers?

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Mack >

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Be consistent?

Only thing consistent here, is a certain poster being consistently wrong.

 

[IPS]

I don't think the discussion got advanced much from here.

Pre draft.

U 17

Matthews 24 Games - 33 Points

Eichel 36 Games - 34 Points

U 18

Matthews 60 Games - 117 Points

Eichel 53 Games - 87 Points

Hard to compare their NCAA/NLA pre draft seasons. Both incredible.

WJC

Matthews

12 Games 14 Points

Eichel

10 Games 9 Points

This trend has continued post draft as well, NHL, WC, WHC

So what's the argument for Eichel?

Still waiting on that argument for Eichel. Nothing even remotely valid has been brought up to counter it.

 

[BB06]

I don't think the discussion got advanced much from here.




Still waiting on that argument for Eichel. Nothing even remotely valid has been brought up to counter it.

The fact that Eichel had an unprecedented draft year in college winning the Hobey Baker as a draft eligible?

 

[IPS]

The fact that Eichel had an unprecedented draft year in college winning the Hobey Baker as a draft eligible?

I believe Matthews would have bested it had he not played in Switzerland, seeing as he bested Eichel every step of the way before that.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

The fact that Eichel had an unprecedented draft year in college winning the Hobey Baker as a draft eligible?

I think you need to look up the definition of unprecedented.

 

[BB06]

I think you need to look up the definition of unprecedented.

It may have been a bit of a stretch to call it unprecedented but it was an extremely rare college season for a draft eligible player. We know how players grow in their draft year so it’s hard to just say look at the D-1/2 season. I think it’s close enough that scouts would’ve went the more comfortable route with a guy who had more comparable to see how special his season was. It’s extremely I don’t think it’s as one-sided as some in this thread are making it out to be.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

It may have been a bit of a stretch to call it unprecedented but it was an extremely rare college season for a draft eligible player. We know how players grow in their draft year so it’s hard to just say look at the D-1/2 season. I think it’s close enough that scouts would’ve went the more comfortable route with a guy who had more comparable to see how special his season was. It’s extremely I don’t think it’s as one-sided as some in this thread are making it out to be.

But all the stats suggest otherwise, at every level. It has continued post draft as well.

So the D -1 year where they didn't play the same competition would just happen to be the only outlier?

 

[BB06]

But all the stats suggest otherwise, at every level. It has continued post draft as well.

So the D -1 year where they didn't play the same competition would just happen to be the only outlier?

Matthews has been better in the NHL but that’s hindsight. A lot of players make a big jump between D-1 and draft year. Matthews took a unique route so it’s hard to compare how special a draft year he had.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews took a unique route so it’s hard to compare how special a draft year he had.

Matthews had the 2nd best P/GP (>11 GP) that season in a professional league, as an 18 year old. Against men. The best U20 season by anybody in that league ever. Produced similar to what NHL superstars had done in their prime during lockouts. That's pretty special.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Matthews had the 2nd best P/GP (>11 GP) that season in a professional league, as an 18 year old. Against men. The best U20 season by anybody in that league ever. Produced similar to what NHL superstars had done in their prime during lockouts. That's pretty special.

I guess you could call Matthews season, unprecedented.

 

[IPS]

Matthews had the 2nd best P/GP (>11 GP) that season in a professional league, as an 18 year old. Against men. The best U20 season by anybody in that league ever. Produced similar to what NHL superstars had done in their prime during lockouts. That's pretty special.

Looks good to me.

And I'm not inclined to believe Matthews wouldn't have bested Eichel's D-1 season if he stayed America. He already outproduced Eichel every year before that, don't see why anything would change.

 

[wetcoast]

How I would rank them as "who's best" and "who had the draft hype" are obviously different.

Who's best NOW
McKinnon
Matthews
Dahlin
Eichel
Lafreniere

Who had the DRAFT HYPE
Matthews
Dahlin
McKinnon
Eichel
Lafreniere

As much as I love Dahlin, even his mother would have Eichel ahead of him right now and probably a strong 2nd.