At time of draft - who would be drafted first? Eichel/Matthews/Mack/Dahlin/Lafreniere?

At time of draft - who would be drafted first? Eichel/Matthews/Mack/Dahlin/Lafreniere? No Hindsight


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Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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Weird. In another thread you said Draisaitl was carried by McDavid. But when a Toronto Maple Leaf player plays with McDavid in a meaningless tournament, it’s all about how that Toronto Maple Leaf player excelled. If it wasn’t a Toronto Maple Leaf player on that wing, you would say that McDavid is carrying him.

It was a short tournament where every single game/win meant everything. Therefore, you put your best players together to optimize your chances. Not really ideal over the course of an 82 game season.

Matthews came into that tournament as potentially the 13th forward, some even saying he was only selected because it was being held in Toronto. He quickly proved everyone wrong, almost as quickly as he worked his way up the lineup.
 

LeafsNation75

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Jan 15, 2010
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It was a short tournament where every single game/win meant everything. Therefore, you put your best players together to optimize your chances. Not really ideal over the course of an 82 game season.

Matthews came into that tournament as potentially the 13th forward, some even saying he was only selected because it was being held in Toronto. He quickly proved everyone wrong, almost as quickly as he worked his way up the lineup.
Since Matthews was thought of as the 13th forward he didn't even start playing with McDavid until later on in the tournament.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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Weird. In another thread you said Draisaitl was carried by McDavid. But when a Toronto Maple Leaf player plays with McDavid in a meaningless tournament, it’s all about how that Toronto Maple Leaf player excelled. If it wasn’t a Toronto Maple Leaf player on that wing, you would say that McDavid is carrying him.

Thread: Rank these players BEFORE their draft based on the hype leading up to their draft and with no benefit of hindsight.

Poster: Here's a bunch of things in Matthews' favor AFTER he'd been drafted to prove he's better than [insert player] at the time of the draft.

Edit: the above was just supposed to say "before their draft" not "before their draft year", so I edited out "year"
 
Last edited:

LeafsNation75

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Thread: Rank these players BEFORE their draft year based on the hype leading up to their draft and with no benefit of hindsight.

Poster: Here's a bunch of things in Matthews' favor AFTER he'd been drafted to prove he's better than [insert player] at the time of the draft.
What Matthews did in the 2016 World Cup still took place before his NHL debut against Ottawa.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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What Matthews did in the 2016 World Cup still took place before his NHL debut against Ottawa.

He'd already been drafted at that point. Therefore we'd get the benefit of hindsight in knowing how he'd perform against NHL players in that tournament, something that this thread specifically says we're not supposed to know in order to come up with the rankings.

Talk about all his achievements prior to the draft if you want. His time with the US development team, his time in Switzerland, his time at the World Juniors. But once you start including things he did AFTER he'd already been drafted, you're fluffing up his resume with stuff that directly contradicts the rules in the OP.
 

Dache

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Feb 12, 2018
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What Matthews did in the 2016 World Cup still took place before his NHL debut against Ottawa.
And what does that have to do with Matthews pre draft hype? Honestly at this point I know that you know the mistake you’re making at you’re just intentionally being dishonest.
 

Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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Talk about all his achievements prior to the draft if you want. His time with the US development team, his time in Switzerland, his time at the World Juniors. But once you start including things he did AFTER he'd already been drafted, you're fluffing up his resume with stuff that directly contradicts the rules in the OP.

Agreed, that's like trying to compare stats pre draft of 2 players when 1 of them is playing a year up.
 
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The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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Bad excuse, especially when Matthews outscored Eichel in every single league or tournament that they both played in.
Then explain these tournaments and league stats then. I don't see how your claim is accurate at all.

13-14 USNTDP Juniors

Eichel 45 points 24 games
Matthews 20 points 20 games
USNTDP Juniors at eliteprospects.com

13-14 U.S. National U18 Team

Eichel 87 points in 53 games
Matthew 17 points in 20 games
U.S. National U18 Team at eliteprospects.com

14-15 USA U18 WJC

Eichel 10 points in 7 games
Matthew 7 points in 7 games
USA U18 at eliteprospects.com

14-15 USA U20 WJC

Eichel 4 points in 5 games
Matthew 3 points in 5 games
USA U20 at eliteprospects.com

Facts are apparently hard for some to grasp. Odd.

Absolutely, facts are hard to grasp for some. Clue, Look above.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Then explain these tournaments and league stats then.
I have already explained it multiple times; you know full well what you're doing wrong. The stats you are posting are incomplete and specifically cherry picked to paint a misleading picture. You are comparing prospects at completely different stages of development to suggest the older one is better, which is not how you compare prospects. I have posted their full stats. Matthews has been better everywhere at time of being drafted.
USNTDP Juniors:

Matthews: 30 goals, 68 points in 44 games (0.68 GPG, 1.55 PPG)
Eichel: 33 goals, 72 points in 59 games (0.56 GPG, 1.22 PPG)

U.S. National U17 Team:

Matthews: 12 goals, 33 points in 24 games (0.50 GPG, 1.38 PPG)
Eichel: 19 goals, 34 points in 36 games (0.53 GPG, 0.94 PPG)

U.S. National U18 Team:

Matthews: 67 goals, 134 points in 80 games (0.84 GPG, 1.68 PPG)
Eichel: 48 goals, 105 points in 75 games (0.64 GPG, 1.40 PPG)

USA U17:

Matthews: 4 goals, 8 points in 6 games (0.67 GPG, 1.33 PPG)
Eichel: 3 goals, 3 points in 5 games (0.60 GPG, 0.60 PPG)

USA U18:

Matthews: 13 goals, 22 points in 14 games (0.93 GPG, 1.57 PPG)
Eichel: 6 goals, 12 points in 14 games (0.43 GPG, 0.86 PPG)

USA U20:

Matthews: 8 goals, 14 points in 12 games (0.67 GPG, 1.17 PPG)
Eichel: 2 goals, 9 points in 10 games (0.20 GPG, 0.90 PPG)

USA WC:

Matthews: 6 goals, 9 points in 10 games (0.60 GPG, 0.90 PPG)
Eichel: 2 goals, 7 points in 9 games (0.22 GPG, 0.78 PPG)

NLA/NCAA

Matthews Swiss professional league: 24 goals, 46 points in 36 games (0.67 GPG, 1.28 PPG)
Eichel NCAA College/University league: 26 goals, 71 points in 40 games (0.65 GPG, 1.78 PPG)
 
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The Winter Soldier

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I have already explained it multiple times; you know full well what you're doing wrong. The stats you are posting are incomplete and specifically chosen to paint a misleading picture. You are comparing prospects at completely different stages of development to suggest the older one is better, which is not how you compare prospects. I have posted their full stats. Matthews has been better everywhere at time of being drafted.
Did you even read your own quote?
Bad excuse, especially when Matthews outscored Eichel in every single league or tournament that they both played in.
How many times does it need to be shown to you this is false, are you just going to keep denying the stats posed. I would repost them, but by now I am sure you know what they are.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Do you even read your own quote?
Yes, I did read my quote that made a correct factual statement. It doesn't need to be the exact same year for it to be the same league/tournament. They both played in the USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC. Matthews outperformed Eichel in every single one, as I showed you repeatedly. You can't erase the majority of a prospects pre-draft history just because it shows you to be wrong.
 
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The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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Yes, I did read my quote that made a correct factual statement. It doesn't need to be the exact same year for it to be the same league/tournament. They both played in the USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC. Matthews outperformed Eichel in every single one, as I showed you repeatedly. You can't erase the majority of a prospects pre-draft history just because it shows you to be wrong.
Then if you did see your quote, and you did read the stats. You would know that it is impossible that Matthews outscored Eichel in every tournament and league they played in. I am not sure how a player with 7 points Matthews in the same tournament outscored another Eichel with 10 points, but here we are.
 
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Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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I have already explained it multiple times; you know full well what you're doing wrong. The stats you are posting are incomplete and specifically cherry picked to paint a misleading picture. You are comparing prospects at completely different stages of development to suggest the older one is better, which is not how you compare prospects. I have posted their full stats. Matthews has been better everywhere at time of being drafted.

Imagine being so dishonest and agenda driven that someone needs to post stats (pre draft) comparing one player playing amongst his age group vs. a player playing up a year.

It's like those Buffalo fans that tried to compare Eichels year 2 NHL stats vs. Matthews rookie year, or year 3 vs. year 2. Completely insane, and honestly, quite easy to see through.

Fact is, their TOTAL USNDP program stats aren't remotely close.

Matthews - 104 Games, 167 points (1.606 PPG)

Eichel - 111 Games, 139 points (1.252 PPG)

Not close.
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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I am not sure how a player with 7 points in the same tournament outscored one with 10 points, but here we are.
Because that's not the full stats for that tournament prior to being drafted. That's solely D-3 for 1 player and D-2 for another, which is incredibly misleading.

Their full stats for that tournament pre-draft are:

USA U18:

Matthews: 13 goals, 22 points in 14 games (0.93 GPG, 1.57 PPG)
Eichel: 6 goals, 12 points in 14 games (0.43 GPG, 0.86 PPG)

Complete dominance by Matthews. We can also break it down into each stage of development:

D-3:

Matthews: 5 goals, 7 points in 7 games
Eichel: 1 goal, 2 points in 7 games

D-2:

Matthews: 8 goals, 15 points in 7 games
Eichel: 5 goals, 10 points in 7 games

Matthews was better each step of the way.

USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC are the leagues/tournaments that both played in. At time of being drafted, Matthews outperformed Eichel in every single one.
 

Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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Because that's not the full stats for that tournament prior to being drafted. That's solely D-3 for 1 player and D-2 for another, which is incredibly misleading.

Their full stats for that tournament pre-draft are:

USA U18:

Matthews: 13 goals, 22 points in 14 games (0.93 GPG, 1.57 PPG)
Eichel: 6 goals, 12 points in 14 games (0.43 GPG, 0.86 PPG)

Complete dominance by Matthews. We can also break it down into each stage of development:

D-3:

Matthews: 5 goals, 7 points in 7 games
Eichel: 1 goal, 2 points in 7 games

D-2:

Matthews: 8 goals, 15 points in 7 games
Eichel: 5 goals, 10 points in 7 games

Matthews was better each step of the way.

USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC are the leagues/tournaments that both played in. At time of being drafted, Matthews outperformed Eichel in every single one.


Not sure how someone can argue against such straight forward simple facts, but I'm sure they'll try.
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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Because that's not the full stats for that tournament prior to being drafted. That's solely D-3 for 1 player and D-2 for another, which is incredibly misleading.

Their full stats for that tournament pre-draft are:

USA U18:

Matthews: 13 goals, 22 points in 14 games (0.93 GPG, 1.57 PPG)
Eichel: 6 goals, 12 points in 14 games (0.43 GPG, 0.86 PPG)

Complete dominance by Matthews. We can also break it down into each stage of development:

D-3:

Matthews: 5 goals, 7 points in 7 games
Eichel: 1 goal, 2 points in 7 games

D-2:

Matthews: 8 goals, 15 points in 7 games
Eichel: 5 goals, 10 points in 7 games

Matthews was better each step of the way.

USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC are the leagues/tournaments that both played in. At time of being drafted, Matthews outperformed Eichel in every single one.
This virtually has nothing to do with what we are discussing. I am not sure why you quoted me on this.
I posted factual stats that I am sure by now you have seen that 100% refuted your statement here:
Bad excuse, especially when Matthews outscored Eichel in every single league or tournament that they both played in.
That's it. And the stats showed the above was not true.
 

LeafsNation75

Registered User
Jan 15, 2010
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Imagine being so dishonest and agenda driven that someone needs to post stats (pre draft) comparing one player playing amongst his age group vs. a player playing up a year.

It's like those Buffalo fans that tried to compare Eichels year 2 NHL stats vs. Matthews rookie year, or year 3 vs. year 2. Completely insane, and honestly, quite easy to see through.

Fact is, their TOTAL USNDP program stats aren't remotely close.

Matthews - 104 Games, 167 points (1.606 PPG)

Eichel - 111 Games, 139 points (1.252 PPG)

Not close.
It's because some people hate it when a Leafs prospect does better than expected and there needs to be reasons why it's wrong.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
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21,053
No, that's exactly what is being discussed. USHL, USDP, WHC-17, WJC-18, WJC-20, and the WC are the leagues/tournaments that both played in. At time of being drafted, Matthews outperformed Eichel in every single one. He would have been drafted before Eichel.
Not really, I was discussing your quote. Which has certainly been proven to be incorrect. But whatever, carry on. I am sure you are going to do it anyway.
 

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