Around the NHL Thread - Found the Missing #16

[Lunatik]

I’d rather have either Hathaway or Quine in there over DSP if we were to replace Mangiapane anyways

I glazed over the fact you had Czarnik on the 4th line, a position he has failed at multiple times this year and just assumed you'd have had Hathaway there anyway.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

I glazed over the fact you had Czarnik on the 4th line, a position he has failed at multiple times this year and just assumed you'd have had Hathaway there anyway.

Why do you say he failed?

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Why do you say he failed?

didn't pad his hit stats enough

 

[Lunatik]

Why do you say he failed?

Because he played like shit when deployed ln the 4th line. I like Czarnik, but he needs to be in a more offensive role. Having a 4th line with Czar and Mangiapane would be pretty much the softest line in the history of the NHL playoffs.

 

[Lunatik]

didn't pad his hit stats enough

as usual, you have no idea what is really going on

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Because he played like **** when deployed ln the 4th line. I like Czarnik, but he needs to be in a more offensive role. Having a 4th line with Czar and Mangiapane would be pretty much the softest line in the history of the NHL playoffs.

He really didn’t though, he struggled to put up numbers, but he certainly didn’t play like shit.

With Ryan playing how he is, and Mangiapane on the other wing, what are you expecting out of that line? Is that not a line that has been good at providing offence lately? Especially considering they have to drag a guy with zero offensive skill around...

Pigeonholing certain lines to certain identities (i.e., 4th line has to be crash and bang) is just not how the game works anymore...

 

[Sparky93]

He really didn’t though, he struggled to put up numbers, but he certainly didn’t play like ****.

With Ryan playing how he is, and Mangiapane on the other wing, what are you expecting out of that line? Is that not a line that has been good at providing offence lately? Especially considering they have to drag a guy with zero offensive skill around...

Pigeonholing certain lines to certain identities (i.e., 4th line has to be crash and bang) is just not how the game works anymore...

While I don’t think the 4th line has to be a crash line anymore, they do have to be able to defend themselves physical. I think that line would get brutalized in the playoffs, pretty badly. There simply isn’t the offensive ability, to make up for the complete lack of physicality. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re actively search for an upgrade on Mangiapane.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

He really didn’t though, he struggled to put up numbers, but he certainly didn’t play like ****.

With Ryan playing how he is, and Mangiapane on the other wing, what are you expecting out of that line? Is that not a line that has been good at providing offence lately? Especially considering they have to drag a guy with zero offensive skill around...

Pigeonholing certain lines to certain identities (i.e., 4th line has to be crash and bang) is just not how the game works anymore...

You're spot-on.

There have been only two lines I felt Czarnik actually struggeld on:

Czarnik-Ryan-Neal - This is because without Sam Bennett to carry him, James Neal has been absolutely and utterly useless all year, no matter who you put him with. Mangiapane-Ryan-Neal were also an awful line even though Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway have been fantastic despite Hathaway still being worse than an option like Lazar. The problem was Neal. It was Neal on Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal too. And Tkachuk-Backlund-Neal.

Tkachuk-Backlund-Czarnik - This is because this line is being hard matched to other team's superstar lines and Czarnik isn't as defensively sound as Frolik, Bennett, or Lindholm to take on those matchups.

Having a line run around like headless chickens, losing races, chasing hits and shot blocks while never actually coming out of corners with actual reliable control and ultimately getting scored on, and most of us are smart enough to know it doesn't get you anywhere except strapped with buyout dollars. DSP might have had a flukey couple of games on a cup winner where he scored but that's all it was, a flukey couple of games, that every cup winner gets from a total scrub at some point in their run. We could get those same flukely goals from Anthony Peluso because you don't need skill to be lucky.

 

[crackdown44]

Quine is the answer to all these questions

 

[Lunatik]

He really didn’t though, he struggled to put up numbers, but he certainly didn’t play like ****.

With Ryan playing how he is, and Mangiapane on the other wing, what are you expecting out of that line? Is that not a line that has been good at providing offence lately? Especially considering they have to drag a guy with zero offensive skill around...

Pigeonholing certain lines to certain identities (i.e., 4th line has to be crash and bang) is just not how the game works anymore...

You still need guys like that and we don't have them on any other line, so they need to be on the 4th line. If you don't have them in the post season you get eaten alive. Look at Ferland did against the Canucks in the playoffs while on the 4th line, it wasn't his skill that was a difference maker, it was his ability to play with jam.

And yes Czarnik did play like shit because he's f***ing useless when he's not producing. Offensive skill is literally all Czarnik brings to the table.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

ITT a team with Sam Bennett, James Neal, and Matthew Tkachuk doesn't have enough physical players so we need to add useless plugs because hit stats

 

[Lunatik]

ITT a team with Sam Bennett, James Neal, and Matthew Tkachuk doesn't have enough physical players so we need to add useless plugs because hit stats

Tkachuk isn't all that physical. Neal has not played all that physical this year and who knows when he'll be back. So the solution to all of our toughness is on your beloved Bennett! Sounds like a typical one of your replies.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

ITT Matthew Tkachuk is not physical because hit stats

 

[MonyontheMoney]

You're spot-on.

There have been only two lines I felt Czarnik actually struggeld on:

Czarnik-Ryan-Neal - This is because without Sam Bennett to carry him, James Neal has been absolutely and utterly useless all year, no matter who you put him with. Mangiapane-Ryan-Neal were also an awful line even though Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway have been fantastic despite Hathaway still being worse than an option like Lazar. The problem was Neal. It was Neal on Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal too. And Tkachuk-Backlund-Neal.

Tkachuk-Backlund-Czarnik - This is because this line is being hard matched to other team's superstar lines and Czarnik isn't as defensively sound as Frolik, Bennett, or Lindholm to take on those matchups.

Having a line run around like headless chickens, losing races, chasing hits and shot blocks while never actually coming out of corners with actual reliable control and ultimately getting scored on, and most of us are smart enough to know it doesn't get you anywhere except strapped with buyout dollars. DSP might have had a flukey couple of games on a cup winner where he scored but that's all it was, a flukey couple of games, that every cup winner gets from a total scrub at some point in their run. We could get those same flukely goals from Anthony Peluso because you don't need skill to be lucky.

I’m just about one of the biggest advocates for having toughness around (I’m a bit bias), but to me there are two things:

1. The definition of toughness has change drastically (at least in my mind). I think it’s obvious that the league has moved on from the McGrattan type player, to guys who can do that AND play. I’d even go more drastically and say that “toughness” today as I define it are guys that willingly go into the corners/to the front of the net to engage in battles with a purpose to win possession of the puck and not just with the purpose of laying a loud hit and hopefully getting the puck. If a player can create energy with an occasional big hit or fight that’s a bonus, but the aforementioned aspects would he requirements in looking for a “tough” player for me.

2. This toughness can’t come at the expense of the ability to play hockey. I think this is obvious, and shouldn’t need to be said, though.

Like, the reason I think a Mangiapane/Ryan/Czarnik or Quine/Ryan/Czarnik line (or some combination of those players) is because they all have good motors to get in on the forecheck, engage in and win battles, and do something with the puck afterwards. I get that a big physical line can create lots of energy for the rest of the team with a big hit, but a line that has a strong forecheck, cycle and chance on net shift would bring just as much energy.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

You still need guys like that and we don't have them on any other line, so they need to be on the 4th line. If you don't have them in the post season you get eaten alive. Look at Ferland did against the Canucks in the playoffs while on the 4th line, it wasn't his skill that was a difference maker, it was his ability to play with jam.

And yes Czarnik did play like **** because he's ****ing useless when he's not producing. Offensive skill is literally all Czarnik brings to the table.

Again, I don’t think you NEED guys who have to lay the body often and hard. You NEED guys who will win battles and engage physically often, which we do. Hamonic, Giordano, Stone (if back), Lindholm, Ryan, Bennett, Tkachuk and so on are all “tough” to play against because they win battles all over the place. Sure, some are more “physical” than others, but the job gets done either way.

I’m not against toughness or claiming DSP and having him in case of injuries, but he’s not a big enough upgrade on anyone at playing hockey to warrant it.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Nailed it. Good teams have a very high compete level and they turn pucks over on the forecheck. That's a constant. Sometimes the "how" can get murky. A lot of people see individuals who dominate the forecheck and are good hitters - Sam Bennett, Micheal Ferland - and assume they dominate the game only because they are volume hitters. But these are guys who more than often use their hitting to separate man from puck and make skilled plays for their linemates. They're a rare breed. You can still turn pucks over in other ways - Gaudreau and Lindholm do it, Backlund and Tkachuk and Frolik do it, and Mangiapane and Ryan do it and lately Hathaway has been doing it too although I don't trust his consistency the same way.

When you're just out there trying to rack up hits in the box score so you "seem" physical, you fall into the Troy Brouwer trap. That's not playoff hockey, it's bad hockey.

 

[Lunatik]

Again, I don’t think you NEED guys who have to lay the body often and hard. You NEED guys who will win battles and engage physically often, which we do. Hamonic, Giordano, Stone (if back), Lindholm, Ryan, Bennett, Tkachuk and so on are all “tough” to play against because they win battles all over the place. Sure, some are more “physical” than others, but the job gets done either way.

I’m not against toughness or claiming DSP and having him in case of injuries, but he’s not a big enough upgrade on anyone at playing hockey to warrant it.

You act like Mangiapane and Czarnik have done much this year. Hint: they haven't. They are soft. They are poor defensively (especially Czarnik) and they aren't good enough offensively to make an impact in the NHL. Hathaway has been significantly better than both of them all year. He's also one of our better PKers. DSP has been there before, he was a key player in the finals for the Caps, he's had his struggles this year and if he can't bounce back, you sit him in the pressbox. No harm, no foul.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

You act like Mangiapane and Czarnik have done much this year. Hint: they haven't. They are soft. They are poor defensively (especially Czarnik) and they aren't good enough offensively to make an impact in the NHL. Hathaway has been significantly better than both of them all year.

The one has just as many points as DSP in 23 less games this year, and the other has half the amount in less that half the games played...

Then Hathaway brings a bunch of pest plus very good PK’ing.

Literally, the ONLY thing DSP is better at these guys is “size and physicality”. That’s it. And that’s not worth displacing anyone out of our lineup for.

DSP has been there before, he was a key player in the finals for the Caps, he's had his struggles this year and if he can't bounce back, you sit him in the pressbox. No harm, no foul.

Been where exactly? Hint: Unconditional waivers for the purpose of a buyout and regular waivers. The guys just not a very good player, playoff performance aside.

Again, you’re acting like I haven’t already said I’d be completely fine putting in a claim (because of the uncertainty of Neal’s injury and for depth and additional injury insurance in the meantime). But talking about DSP as a need of ours is just laughable. We don’t need anyone who just isn’t very good at hockey. The guy doesn’t even sniff the NHL in our organization when we’re healthy.

 

[crackdown44]

The one has just as many points as DSP in 23 less games this year, and the other has half the amount in less that half the games played...

Then Hathaway brings a bunch of pest plus very good PK’ing.

Literally, the ONLY thing DSP is better at these guys is “size and physicality”. That’s it. And that’s not worth displacing anyone out of our lineup for.


Been where exactly? Hint: Unconditional waivers for the purpose of a buyout and regular waivers. The guys just not a very good player, playoff performance aside.

Again, you’re acting like I haven’t already said I’d be completely fine putting in a claim (because of the uncertainty of Neal’s injury and for depth and additional injury insurance in the meantime). But talking about DSP as a need of ours is just laughable. We don’t need anyone who just isn’t very good at hockey. The guy doesn’t even sniff the NHL in our organization when we’re healthy.

DSP hasn’t even been very physical this year. He came into camp out of shape during a contract year.

Pretty sure he thought his career was over a couple years back. He somehow had a bit of a resurgence and lucked his way onto a cup winning team but his give a f*** level seems pretty low. I doubt it changes in Calgary.

 

[Sparky93]

The one has just as many points as DSP in 23 less games this year, and the other has half the amount in less that half the games played...

Then Hathaway brings a bunch of pest plus very good PK’ing.

Literally, the ONLY thing DSP is better at these guys is “size and physicality”. That’s it. And that’s not worth displacing anyone out of our lineup for.


Been where exactly? Hint: Unconditional waivers for the purpose of a buyout and regular waivers. The guys just not a very good player, playoff performance aside.

Again, you’re acting like I haven’t already said I’d be completely fine putting in a claim (because of the uncertainty of Neal’s injury and for depth and additional injury insurance in the meantime). But talking about DSP as a need of ours is just laughable. We don’t need anyone who just isn’t very good at hockey. The guy doesn’t even sniff the NHL in our organization when we’re healthy.

You’re probably exaggerating a little bit, especially considering DSP has more points between last year and this year, than the other two, combined, in their careers.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

You’re probably exaggerating a little bit, especially considering DSP has more points between last year and this year, than the other two, combined, in their careers.

Czarnik has 25 career points (90 games), and DSP had 24 this year and last (129 games).

I mean, I don’t like that argument to begin with (this guy outproduced an nhl rookie and another player combined over an arbitrary period of time), but it gets worse when it’s not even factual.

I really don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say Czarnik, Mangiapane, Hathaway and Quine are better players that bring more than DSP.

 

[Lunatik]

The one has just as many points as DSP in 23 less games this year, and the other has half the amount in less that half the games played...

Then Hathaway brings a bunch of pest plus very good PK’ing.

Literally, the ONLY thing DSP is better at these guys is “size and physicality”. That’s it. And that’s not worth displacing anyone out of our lineup for.


Been where exactly? Hint: Unconditional waivers for the purpose of a buyout and regular waivers. The guys just not a very good player, playoff performance aside.

Again, you’re acting like I haven’t already said I’d be completely fine putting in a claim (because of the uncertainty of Neal’s injury and for depth and additional injury insurance in the meantime). But talking about DSP as a need of ours is just laughable. We don’t need anyone who just isn’t very good at hockey. The guy doesn’t even sniff the NHL in our organization when we’re healthy.

So you admit DSP has as many pointds, but brings something else.

and yet you still prefer the guy that gets thrown around with ease by opponents.

And where has DSP been before? Let me give you a hint since you are intentionally ignoring the point:

Oh yeah and he had 7 goal during that journey. So stop pretending like he can't contribute just because you don't like him for ssome reason.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

So you admit DSP has as many pointds, but brings something else.

and yet you still prefer the guy that gets thrown around with ease by opponents.

And where has DSP been before? Let me give you a hint since you are intentionally ignoring the point:

Oh yeah and he had 7 goal during that journey. So stop pretending like he can't contribute just because you don't like him for ssome reason.

You’re literally the poster child for hating players for some reason. Don’t throw stones from your glass house, we’re all guilty of it.

It speaks volumes to me that the Caps saw what he can contribute first hand, but still put him on waivers. It’s almost like what they’ve seen from him over a whole season is more important than a 24 game sample in the playoffs.

I swear some people get way too enamoured with toughness that doesn’t do anything productive

 

[Sparky93]

Czarnik has 25 career points (90 games), and DSP had 24 this year and last (129 games).

I mean, I don’t like that argument to begin with (this guy outproduced an nhl rookie and another player combined over an arbitrary period of time), but it gets worse when it’s not even factual.

I really don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say Czarnik, Mangiapane, Hathaway and Quine are better players that bring more than DSP.

I think you’re kind of making my point. Czarnik is the same age as DSP, having only being able to play himself into 90 career games, speaks volumes. From what I’ve seen, he’ll be very lucky to ever reach 200. There just isn’t a big demand for small, 20 point, “offence only” players. Mangiapane has a bit more potential but also a long ways to go, before he’d ever be considered an NHL regular. Sure these guys have good motors but neither has been able to consistently out work, out battle or for that matter out produce their opponents, which is why they haven’t been able to solidify themselves as everyday NHL players.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

DSP is an upgrade over Curtis Lazar as the 13th forward.