Around the NHL - Episode XXXX

[Silencio]

The thought crossed my mind while I was finishing up that post, but was not sure and did not feel like looking it up. I do recall there was a conditional 1st based on the Sharks making the finals but cannot remember if there was a conditional pick based on him re-signing.

Yep Ottawa gets San Jose's 2021 second round pick (would have been a first if the Sharks had made the cup finals last year)

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

At this point, the Dzingel trade is a win even if we did not receive two 2nd round picks in return, but hey we did, so that makes it an amazing trade. Second, the Karlsson trade gets seriously underrated around here. You do not have to think it was "amazing" but in hindsight it has turned into at the very least, a very good trade:

DeMelo is a top 4 defenseman
Balcers is looking like he could be the dark horse steal of that trade.
Josh Norris is at the moment, living up to his expectations. Now we see if it translates on an NHL level.
Tierney, I am not sure what happened to him this season but he is definitely an NHL player and is a solid 3rd line player. Most likely we move him and whatever the return is becomes a future asset bred from this trade.
2020 1st round pick - the fact that this pick could end up being anywhere from 5-15 is a blessing, most of us probably figured at the time of the trade that it was guaranteed to be a 25-31 ranked pick. It still could, but the possibility the Sharks miss the playoffs and we end up with another top 15 pick this year is beautiful.

A good trade, anyone who says otherwise is just not seeing the big picture here.

I don't want to gum up an unrelated thread to beat a dead horse, but we're not that far off.

Dzingel trade was a win, and as I alluded to, they need to keep Duclair to truly say that, but I expect they will. If all we get from Duclair is him playing on a basement dweller for a couple years, that doesn't really do anyone any good.

For the Karlsson trade, it still has that potential, but it will depend on how these specially chosen Dorion magic beans turn out, which was what I was saying in my original comment. Balcers and Norris have developed nicely so far, but they still have a lot to prove and chances are they never come anywhere near the best player in the deal in Karlsson. Demelo and Tierney are nothing but currency to me since they are only really suited for the roles you've listed on a bad team imo. They would be 3rd pairing D and a 3rd line center not suited for the role due to his lack of ability and effort on the defensive end. If anything, they could eat up the extremely limited budget I would prefer goes to players I think should be prioritized.

The Hoffman trade we agreed was ridiculous. Regardless of the circumstances, they accepted a cap dump and downgraded a pick for him.

Stone trade needs Brannstrom to be a star and the Duchene trade is still magic beans too.

 

[BonkTastic]

Apparently Hoffman was the one looking for a fight vs Karlsson.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Apparently Hoffman was the one looking for a fight vs Karlsson.

I watched the game and yeah, Hoffman was down for some fisticuffs for sure.

Hard to fault Karlsson for turning down the offer with his injury history and the need for his team to perform.

 

[Six Assets]

I watched the game and yeah, Hoffman was down for some fisticuffs for sure.

Hard to fault Karlsson for turning down the offer with his injury history and the need for his team to perform.

karlsson fighting would have lead it to become a much bigger distraction and story imo. good on him for letting it go.

 

[The Lewler]

Hoffman is a dingus. Him trying to get the fight going fits my beliefs about him 100%.

 

[Xspyrit]

The convenient excuse they needed for the sell off fell right in their lap.

Excuse or not, there's no way they could have kept the Hoffman-Karlsson situation dwell on, something had to give. I thought by trading Hoffman, they "fixed" the issue and intended to extend Karlsson but it happened differently

It was not a great trade but it could still be a good trade depending on how Brannstrom develops and who we pick with the Vegas second. Technically it is Dallas' second as Vegas had acquired it from them before trading it to us.

Brannstrom needs to be Torey Krug for the trade to be "good". People have complained so much about the EK trade and somewhat preferred the Stone return but it's frankly not even comparable. Mark Stone is as much of an impact player as Erik Karlsson. I love EK but if I had the choice to only keep one, it would have been Stone.

At this point, the Dzingel trade is a win even if we did not receive two 2nd round picks in return, but hey we did, so that makes it an amazing trade. Second, the Karlsson trade gets seriously underrated around here. You do not have to think it was "amazing" but in hindsight it has turned into at the very least, a very good trade:

DeMelo is a top 4 defenseman
Balcers is looking like he could be the dark horse steal of that trade.
Josh Norris is at the moment, living up to his expectations. Now we see if it translates on an NHL level.
Tierney, I am not sure what happened to him this season but he is definitely an NHL player and is a solid 3rd line player. Most likely we move him and whatever the return is becomes a future asset bred from this trade.
2020 1st round pick - the fact that this pick could end up being anywhere from 5-15 is a blessing, most of us probably figured at the time of the trade that it was guaranteed to be a 25-31 ranked pick. It still could, but the possibility the Sharks miss the playoffs and we end up with another top 15 pick this year is beautiful.

A good trade, anyone who says otherwise is just not seeing the big picture here.

- I wouldn't say DeMelo is a top-4 D-man, he is one by default here, but doing reasonably well. I think he didn't get a fair chance in SJ and was regarded as a throw in but he's now at least a good 3rd pairing guy.

- Balcers I thought was the best piece in the deal with Norris. He was the Sharks 2nd best prospect. Well, he has done nothing to disappoint, au contraire.

- Norris : might be even better than I thought. He will be a key player for the Sens, a guy that helps you win.

- Tierney : should have traded him this off-season, like I have been saying since last season lol. He's a decent bottom-6 forward, shouldn't be anywhere near your top-6. Just average at everything.

- 2020 first : a top-15 pick in THIS draft makes it a a very very valuable piece in this trade. Top-10? That would be an amazingly good piece. Top-5? Insanely good piece

- Panthers 2019 2nd round pick (you forgot) : used to move up and grab Mats Sogaard. It remains to be seen but could potentially be our goalie of the future. He's the one I have the most faith in.

- 2021 2nd (you forgot) : We'll see but a chance to add another quality prospect

However, I agree with most of the OP and think you made solid points, my only other disagreement would be to classify the Karlsson trade as 'acceptable' instead of 'good'.

I love EK but look at what I have listed above. It looks much better than "acceptable"

EK has a 11.5 CH this season and the next 7 years. He will have a hard time to always play at that CH level, a bit like Ryan was here in being overpaid by 1.5-2.25 millions per year. And look how negatively Ryan was seen with his little 7.25 CH. Well, look no further than the start of this season and how Karlsson was torn apart.

This trade is slowly turning unbelievably good for the Senators even though I will always miss EK and dislike Melnyk for it.

 

[BatherSeason]

thought by trading Hoffman, they "fixed" the issue and intended to extend Karlsson but it happened differently

Please delete, I misread the post.

 

[GCK]

Has it ever been proven that the allegations were true.

 

[Micklebot]

Has it ever been proven that the allegations were true.

The mention in the athletic article that the case has been dropped.

 

[Xspyrit]

To continue the debate with TheDebater

Best/worse Dorion trades IMO

- Karlsson to San Jose (2020 1st, Norris, Balcers, 2nd, 2nd, DeMelo, Tierney)
- Dzingel to Columbus (Duclair, 2nd, 2nd)
- Duchene to Columbus (Thomson, Abramov, Davidsson)
- Brassard to Pittsburgh (Gustavsson, JBD, Tychonick, 3rd)
- Lazar to Calgary (2nd : Fort menton)
- Ceci to Toronto (Ceci + Harpur + 3rd for Zaitsev + Connor Brown)


...............


- Duchene for Turris + Bowers + 3rd + 1st (only because that 1st ended up so high)
- Hoffman to SJ
- Stone to Vegas (Brannstrom, 2nd)
- Zibanejad to NYR (Brassard, minus a 2nd)

I don't want to gum up an unrelated thread to beat a dead horse, but we're not that far off.

Dzingel trade was a win, and as I alluded to, they need to keep Duclair to truly say that, but I expect they will. If all we get from Duclair is him playing on a basement dweller for a couple years, that doesn't really do anyone any good.

If it was Dzingel playing instead of Duclair, would it do anyone any good?

It was either you let him go as UFA and get nothing, either re-sign him and have him play on a basement dweller for a couple years, or trade him. The return for Dzingel is incredibly good, no matter how you spin it.

For the Karlsson trade, it still has that potential, but it will depend on how these specially chosen Dorion magic beans turn out, which was what I was saying in my original comment. Balcers and Norris have developed nicely so far, but they still have a lot to prove and chances are they never come anywhere near the best player in the deal in Karlsson. Demelo and Tierney are nothing but currency to me since they are only really suited for the roles you've listed on a bad team imo. They would be 3rd pairing D and a 3rd line center not suited for the role due to his lack of ability and effort on the defensive end. If anything, they could eat up the extremely limited budget I would prefer goes to players I think should be prioritized.

Potential? I mean, it would take some major disappointments for this trade to not be very good (no matter how good EK is, or was)

Ok so they got a decent 3rd liner (Tierney) and a good 3rd pairing guy (DeMelo), both cheap and quite young still.

They got a 2nd round pick which was used to move up and select Mats Sogaard.

Norris and Balcers look like excellent/great prospects.

That 1st round pick could be top-10

Plus that 2021 2nd round pick.


Sure, if Sogaard, Norris and Balcers all bust and if they botch all of the picks (a 1st and two 2nds), then yeah, it will have been just "potential"

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Has it ever been proven that the allegations were true.

Case was dropped so I think Hoffman being pissed is legitimate: the scenario where his GF/fiancee is very unpleasant and where everyone piled on her because of that (because it was conceivable that she was behind it) rather than any actual hard evidence is 100% plausible.

Everybody lost in that mess: we know what happened to Melinda, we can assume that Hoffman's significant other went through hell, both the players suffered, the Senators traded Hoffman for Boedker and we'll likely never find out what actually went down.

Bleh.

 

[HSF]

Duchene to CBJ is not a good trade

Hoffman to SJ is HORRIFIC. Trading away two 70 point forwards for magic beans and a cap dump is ridiculous

Lets not get started on Karlsson and Stone

 

[coladin]

If I'm EK, I am throwing down with Hoffman every shift until they kicked me out of the game for hitting the three fight limit...

If everything that Melinda and Erik went through was true, on top of their parking lot argument, how in the hell does he not fight Hoffman? It is your wife, your family, that his girl was behind, and Hoffman wanted to go. Karlsson, wow

 

[HSF]

Balcers and Norris are 'great' prospects? Holy slow down the hype train.

 

[Silencio]

Balcers and Norris are 'great' prospects? Holy slow down the hype train.

That kind of hyperbole is usually reserved for prospects that Ottawa trades away, like Jonathan Dahlen.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Balcers and Norris are 'great' prospects? Holy slow down the hype train.

They both seem really solid prospects yeah. A very nice surprise for us.

We might end up with Balcers, Norris and the 15th to 20th(ish?) overall pick on top of Demelo who's been rock solid for us (the team hasn't been great though). Then you have Tierney and another 2nd rounder.

If that second rounder becomes a decent player and the first three pieces pan out, the return we got will have turned out much more impressive than at first glance.

 

[BatherSeason]

If everything that Melinda and Erik went through was true, on top of their parking lot argument, how in the hell does he not fight Hoffman? It is your wife, your family, that his girl was behind, and Hoffman wanted to go. Karlsson, wow

Local media and influencers have already framed Karlsson as a bad guy, no need to pile on, using the bad husband bit is a new low. He is gone, lets move along.

 

[HSF]

If everything that Melinda and Erik went through was true, on top of their parking lot argument, how in the hell does he not fight Hoffman? It is your wife, your family, that his girl was behind, and Hoffman wanted to go. Karlsson, wow

cause karlsson is past it and just had a new born child with his wife and probably doesn't want to go back down that lane?

seems like karlsson was the bigger man and Hoffman needs to get over it

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Excuse or not, there's no way they could have kept the Hoffman-Karlsson situation dwell on, something had to give. I thought by trading Hoffman, they "fixed" the issue and intended to extend Karlsson but it happened differently

My view of the situation is a little different in that I think the direction dictated by financial decisions over any other considerations, but I was mostly responding sarcastically to a bit of a gaslight comment. My view is it lands somewhere in the middle and that they had a convenient excuse, but I also acknowledge that the story had legs and one of the two had to go.

Brannstrom needs to be Torey Krug for the trade to be "good". People have complained so much about the EK trade and somewhat preferred the Stone return but it's frankly not even comparable. Mark Stone is as much of an impact player as Erik Karlsson. I love EK but if I had the choice to only keep one, it would have been Stone.

If he turns in to a Torey Krug, I will be dissapointed, but it's certainly better than a bust. I would agree that it looks like Stone was the better bet to invest in over Karlsson, but we didn't pony up enough for either, so that debate isn't worth taking much further.

- I wouldn't say DeMelo is a top-4 D-man, he is one by default here, but doing reasonably well. I think he didn't get a fair chance in SJ and was regarded as a throw in but he's now at least a good 3rd pairing guy.

Don't disagree. I'm not out to slam DeMelo and he's arguably the most useful piece from the deal so far, but he is a replaceable role player destined for 3rd pairing on a good team. That's fine, but I'm not excited and see him as a replacement level role player at best.

- Balcers I thought was the best piece in the deal with Norris. He was the Sharks 2nd best prospect. Well, he has done nothing to disappoint, au contraire.

I'm excited about him. That said, the point of my post was to identify most pieces as magic beans, and he still falls in that category for me. Could be a real useful player, but I don't see him as a star.

- Norris : might be even better than I thought. He will be a key player for the Sens, a guy that helps you win.

Excited as well, but same as above.

- Tierney : should have traded him this off-season, like I have been saying since last season lol. He's a decent bottom-6 forward, shouldn't be anywhere near your top-6. Just average at everything.

I agree. He is currency if they handle him right. I am not a fan of his soft game for the 3rd line center role and he certainly doesn't belong higher on a good team.

- 2020 first : a top-15 pick in THIS draft makes it a a very very valuable piece in this trade. Top-10? That would be an amazingly good piece. Top-5? Insanely good piece

If it lands high, I agree. Hopefully they make good use of the pick. The higher it is, the less of a "magic bean" it is. I'm not ready to write off SJ yet though and still think they make it in and it lands in the high teens or low 20's.

- Panthers 2019 2nd round pick (you forgot) : used to move up and grab Mats Sogaard. It remains to be seen but could potentially be our goalie of the future. He's the one I have the most faith in.

He made the original post, so I was only quoting what he listed. I agree that Sogaard looks to have the most potential, same story as Balcers and Norris.

- 2021 2nd (you forgot) : We'll see but a chance to add another quality prospect

Same as above.

I love EK but look at what I have listed above. It looks much better than "acceptable"

From an asset standpoint, it's appears to be plenty and at this point I don't disagree. My point is that Dorion still needs some of these shots to hit and be something significant to the rebuild before it's anything to wave a flag about. If every guy turned out to be average, which is very much a possibility and usually what you see in quantity for quality trades, then they're all summer time replacement level players, which would mean it was all relatively inconsequential to the rebuild. 7 or 8 assets for one guy looks great though, it definitely looks better today than it did then. They have a lot of darts on the board with this one.

EK has a 11.5 CH this season and the next 7 years. He will have a hard time to always play at that CH level, a bit like Ryan was here in being overpaid by 1.5-2.25 millions per year. And look how negatively Ryan was seen with his little 7.25 CH. Well, look no further than the start of this season and how Karlsson was torn apart.

This trade is slowly turning unbelievably good for the Senators and I will always miss EK and dislike Melnyk for it.

The consequences were far beyond what we see on the ice and they're reaping that. I hold it against them for how they handled it and treated the fans and media more than anything. Some decent management and PR could have gone a long way for them, but now they're just reaping what they sowed.

Responses in bold.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Has it ever been proven that the allegations were true.

Nope. And if Hoffman thinks he was railroaded .. because in his mind they are absolutely not true.. I'd want a piece of Karlsson as well. I am sure it runs deeper than that though. I would expect Karlsson not to want to fight to settle any score with Hoffman.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

To continue the debate with TheDebater

Best/worse Dorion trades IMO

- Karlsson to San Jose (2020 1st, Norris, Balcers, 2nd, 2nd, DeMelo, Tierney)
- Dzingel to Columbus (Duclair, 2nd, 2nd)
- Duchene to Columbus (Thomson, Abramov, Davidsson)
- Brassard to Pittsburgh (Gustavsson, JBD, Tychonick, 3rd)
- Lazar to Calgary (2nd : Fort menton)
- Ceci to Toronto (Ceci + Harpur + 3rd for Zaitsev + Connor Brown)


...............


- Duchene for Turris + Bowers + 3rd + 1st (only because that 1st ended up so high)
- Hoffman to SJ
- Stone to Vegas (Brannstrom, 2nd)
- Zibanejad to NYR (Brassard, minus a 2nd)



If it was Dzingel playing instead of Duclair, would it do anyone any good?

It was either you let him go as UFA and get nothing, either re-sign him and have him play on a basement dweller for a couple years, or trade him. The return for Dzingel is incredibly good, no matter how you spin it.

Potential? I mean, it would take some major disappointments for this trade to not be very good (no matter how good EK is, or was)

Ok so they got a decent 3rd liner (Tierney) and a good 3rd pairing guy (DeMelo), both cheap and quite young still.

They got a 2nd round pick which was used to move up and select Mats Sogaard.

Norris and Balcers look like excellent/great prospects.

That 1st round pick could be top-10

Plus that 2021 2nd round pick.


Sure, if Sogaard, Norris and Balcers all bust and if they botch all of the picks (a 1st and two 2nds), then yeah, it will have been just "potential"

It's not spin because you disagree, it's just a different perspective of how and when you can call deals a win. When magic beans are involved, it's always a wait and see imo. These quantity for quality deals typically end up with busts and replacement level players easily picked up elsewhere.

I'm hopeful but don't call the trades a win until we have contributing quality NHL players beyond role players like DeMelo and Tierney that I see as nothing but stopgap currency in the context of a rebuild.

 

[JD1]

cause karlsson is past it and just had a new born child with his wife and probably doesn't want to go back down that lane?

seems like karlsson was the bigger man and Hoffman needs to get over it

I'll caveat this with saying i have no idea what actually happened.

That said, your life is torn apart with hugely public accusations about your SO, tearing your life apart, and after your entire life is turned upside down and you are public enemy #1, the accusations / charges are dropped.

And Hoffman should just get over it? Seriously?

I never liked Hoffman or his lazy on ice character but if he's having issues getting over it, i can't say I blame him

 

[Xspyrit]

Duchene to CBJ is not a good trade

I'm not sure what you expected for a UFA-to-be better than a 19th OA pick (Thomson) and 2 good/decent prospects (Abramov/Davidsson)

Hoffman to SJ is HORRIFIC. Trading away two 70 point forwards for magic beans and a cap dump is ridiculous.

lol what the heck are you even saying? TWO 70 pts forwards? I didn't know Hoffman had a clone and they were both traded at the same time.

Anyway, I don't know if you were referring to my post or the Debater's but we both had it as a bad trade. That being said, that trade needs an asterisk beside because Hoffman's value was significantly hurt.

Lets not get started on Karlsson and Stone

I had Stone's trade listed as bad.

As for the EK trade, I'm afraid your emotions are taking over rationality. Listen, I'm as a big of a EK fan as you. I even have around 15 000$ US of his memorabilia to prove it. But if you can't see how good this trade is shaping up for the Sens, I don't know what to tell you.

Balcers and Norris are 'great' prospects? Holy slow down the hype train.

Not sure what "Great prospect" means to you but no, it's not ""Generational prospect", "Elite prospect", "High End prospect" or even "Blue-chip prospect". I never said he was a top prospect but he is certainly a very very good prospect.

19th OA pick in 2017, top notch athleticism, great size, great skating, good overall skillet, great hockey sense, was breaking out in the NCAA last year before getting injured. He's only 20 y/o and has 10 goals/10 assists in 23 AHL games, as a pro rookie. Elvenes is the only U-21 player with a better PPG so far. Eyes test also screams NHL success. And no (before you come back with that "kind" of argument), you don't need to be Elias Pettersson to have NHL success

Balcers was a already a top prospect in the Sharks system, started in the AHL at 20 y/o and was his team best player right away. He showed well in the AHL again last year and was pretty decent for a rookie in the NHL too. He seems to be even better this year. AHL pedigree, international scene pedigree + eye test + stats + skillset (shot/skating/poise/etc) = looks like a good NHLer in the making to me.

Anyway, you seem very desperate in wanting that trade return to fail that even Silencio's sarcasm went well over your head...

That kind of hyperbole is usually reserved for prospects that Ottawa trades away, like Jonathan Dahlen.

lol that's a good one but the fact that HSF liked your post is even funnier.

They both seem really solid prospects yeah. A very nice surprise for us.

We might end up with Balcers, Norris and the 15th to 20th(ish?) overall pick on top of Demelo who's been rock solid for us (the team hasn't been great though). Then you have Tierney and another 2nd rounder.

If that second rounder becomes a decent player and the first three pieces pan out, the return we got will have turned out much more impressive than at first glance.

TWO 2nd rounders (Florida 2019 2nd was used to trade up and grab Sogaard). The other one is Sharks 2nd in 2021

 

[L'Aveuglette]

If everything that Melinda and Erik went through was true, on top of their parking lot argument, how in the hell does he not fight Hoffman? It is your wife, your family, that his girl was behind, and Hoffman wanted to go. Karlsson, wow

Are you seriously saying EK's a p***y because he wouldn't settle his differences physically?