Around the NHL - Episode XLV III - BEAST MODE ANDY

[SensHulk]

Got 23 goals and then signed for $1.7m in the offseason which after all the clawbacks this year means he's playing for about $600k or just less. People see the flash but don't realize he doesn't help you win. Ever. All the ragging on Dadonov but he has 3 GWGs this year and one of them was in that crazy comeback against the Leafs.

If we would have re-signed Duclair it would have been as a very temporary placeholder. There's no other way around it.

probably highlights a systemic issue where GMs were not buying what Duclair was bringing based on his rep. And they were all wrong to do that. I won’t absolve that maybe Duclair was aiming too high, we won’t know for sure but what does it matter? He took less money for a chance with Florida and I’d say he’s been more than worth that contract. And no, I don’t care that Dadanov has 3 GWGs, I would trade him for Duclair any day of the week.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

If Duclair isnt a 'guy you win with', I dont wanna know what the hell Dadonov is.

After Kessel won a cup, I thought maybe we would have less 'you cant win with that guy!' convos. Guess not tho.

The "can't win with that guy" narrative is basically just another way of saying I give up for coaches and GMs. The successful ones use every different type of talented player out there. The bad ones fill their teams with "guy you win with" types, then proceed to never win a damn thing.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Alfie was a guy you couldn't win with until he wasn't. One of my least favorite sports tropes.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Mike Hoffman gets cast as that kind of guy and he scored some huge goals for us and was part of the run. Just have to use them properly and squeeze the juice they have to offer.

 

[Big Muddy]

He's helping Florida win right now. This is a strange argument for why we should not have re-signed him. He scores points and goals and isn't a liability while doing so. Since leaving Columbus his stats are:

121 GP 37 G 41 A = 78 P --- 0.64 PPG and is a +15 over that stretch. Under three different coaches.

Goals help you win, flashy or otherwise. It was a bad call to just let him walk. It happens. I don't see why that is hard to admit.

If Duclair isnt a 'guy you win with', I dont wanna know what the hell Dadonov is.

After Kessel won a cup, I thought maybe we would have less 'you cant win with that guy!' convos. Guess not tho.

There's a "thing" it seems about dissing a player who has departed your team. Maybe the theory is your a better/bigger fan of your team if you do that. Those folks cheer when the player plays for their team, and then are slandering the guy the second he departs it seems.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Jeff Skinner is getting paid $9M dollars this year. NHL GMs don't always know what they're doing. Meanwhile one of the top 5 coaches of all time is finding Duclair very useful.

I love how DJ Smith's and Pierre Dorion's word is gospel around here (with some) but Joel Quenneville's is quickly brushed off.

You pick one guy with a massive contract that backfires and suddenly "NHL GMs don't always know what they're doing". You could have just said "I don't have a good explanation for why a guy like Duclair signed for so little" and we could have left it at that or you could have thought "hmmmm, almost every GM in the league passed on this guy for basically no money, I wonder if there's actual validity to this idea".

It's funny you'd say "GMs don't always know what they're doing" because you guys sure love heaping praise on pretty much every GM in the league outside of Dorion. Except now you're not so sure about them when it suits your point...

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You pick one guy with a massive contract that backfires and suddenly "NHL GMs don't always know what they're doing". You could have just said "I don't have a good explanation for why a guy like Duclair signed for so little" and we could have left it at that or you could have thought "hmmmm, almost every GM in the league passed on this guy for basically no money, I wonder if there's actual validity to this idea".

It's funny you'd say "GMs don't always know what they're doing" because you guys sure love heaping praise on pretty much every GM in the league outside of Dorion. Except now you're not so sure about them when it suits your point...

This is just not true. They hate on Dorion, myself included, but I don't see a lot of that here. Plenty of other GM's get criticized here and for good reason. Benning, Treliving, Wilson, Poile, Dubas, Bergevin, etc.

 

[Big Muddy]

You pick one guy with a massive contract that backfires and suddenly "NHL GMs don't always know what they're doing". You could have just said "I don't have a good explanation for why a guy like Duclair signed for so little" and we could have left it at that or you could have thought "hmmmm, almost every GM in the league passed on this guy for basically no money, I wonder if there's actual validity to this idea".

It's funny you'd say "GMs don't always know what they're doing" because you guys sure love heaping praise on pretty much every GM in the league outside of Dorion. Except now you're not so sure about them when it suits your point...

In fairness to the other GMs, and the situation at hand, not a lot of teams had much money to spend in the offseason that just passed. A lot of teams had to focus a lot on purging assets. Maybe Duclair just overestimated what the market was like and thought there would be a more buoyant market.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

You pick one guy with a massive contract that backfires and suddenly "NHL GMs don't always know what they're doing". You could have just said "I don't have a good explanation for why a guy like Duclair signed for so little" and we could have left it at that or you could have thought "hmmmm, almost every GM in the league passed on this guy for basically no money, I wonder if there's actual validity to this idea".

It's funny you'd say "GMs don't always know what they're doing" because you guys sure love heaping praise on pretty much every GM in the league outside of Dorion. Except now you're not so sure about them when it suits your point...

Wow. Talk about strawmen.

Show me where I praise every GM except Dorion. Especially given that you literally said IN THE VERY SAME POST that I say "NHL GMs don't always know what they are doing". LOL.

I will praise a guy, in general, who has won three cups though. He's finding winning with a guy like Duclair pretty easy right now.

And how do we know that almost every team passed on him? He took a low salary in the midst of a pandemic. That doesn't mean nobody wanted him.

Besides the GMs passed on him so he must be bad thing is so illogical. Martin St. Louis was never drafted. Was cut multiple times. Didn't even become a full time player until he was older than Duclair is now. Artem Zub was not offered a contract until he was 25. Was he always bad and just now became good? Was every GM wrong for 6 years? If they were wrong in those instances could they be wrong about Duclair? And if Duclair doesn't do anything to help you win, why did we acquire him in the first place? Appealing to the infallibility of NHL GMs is the last refuge of a weak argument.


We had Anthony Duclair for 87 games and he scored 31 goals. He was also only a -4 on a basement dwelling team. We apparently didn't see value in that.

Florida saw something in him and he's playing a significant role on a team that is contending for 1st place. I guess Dorion and Co. got it right and Florida got it wrong, right?

 

[BankStreetParade]

Wow. Talk about strawmen.

Show me where I praise every GM except Dorion. Especially given that you literally said IN THE VERY SAME POST that I say "NHL GMs don't always know what they are doing". LOL.

I will praise a guy, in general, who has won three cups though. He's finding winning with a guy like Duclair pretty easy right now.

And how do we know that almost every team passed on him? He took a low salary in the midst of a pandemic. That doesn't mean nobody wanted him.

Besides the GMs passed on him so he must be bad thing is so illogical. Martin St. Louis was never drafted. Was cut multiple times. Didn't even become a full time player until he was older than Duclair is now. Artem Zub was not offered a contract until he was 25. Was he always bad and just now became good? Was every GM wrong for 6 years? If they were wrong in those instances could they be wrong about Duclair? And if Duclair doesn't do anything to help you win, why did we acquire him in the first place? Appealing to the infallibility of NHL GMs is the last refuge of a weak argument.


We had Anthony Duclair for 87 games and he scored 31 goals. He was also only a -4 on a basement dwelling team. We apparently didn't see value in that.

Florida saw something in him and he's playing a significant role on a team that is contending for 1st place. I guess Dorion and Co. got it right and Florida got it wrong, right?

So he can be described like this:

How does scoring goals, assisting your linemates and making dynamic plays not help a team win?

But only 1 team could figure out how to fit him into their lineup? Almost every player who scored 20+ last year is making at least double that amount (except ELC players) but somehow Duclair slipped through the cracks.

Even Yzerman went out and signed Namestnikov to 2yrs/$4 million but wasn't interested Duclair? Buffalo went out and got Cody Eakin at $2.25 million x 2 years. Tyson Barrie had one of the worst years of his career and still got $3.75 million. Just a few examples which don't include all the guys who still got dollars and term in free agency.

All the great GMs that you guys love to always remind us are doing such a better job couldn't find a way to get him into their lineup? So strange. All the analytics departments, all the player tracking tech, all the professional scouts in the league - they all missed on him.

[Also, using Zub and St. Louis as your arguments? Lol. So bad.]

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Duke's got 24 points in 34 games playing limited minutes with almost none on the PP. He's also just 25 and in his prime. How can anyone argue we shouldn't have tried harder to keep him around and forgot all about old man Dadonov?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

So he can be described like this:



But only 1 team could figure out how to fit him into their lineup? Almost every player who scored 20+ last year is making at least double that amount (except ELC players) but somehow Duclair slipped through the cracks.

Even Yzerman went out and signed Namestnikov to 2yrs/$4 million but wasn't interested Duclair? Buffalo went out and got Cody Eakin at $2.25 million x 2 years. Tyson Barrie had one of the worst years of his career and still got $3.75 million. Just a few examples which don't include all the guys who still got dollars and term in free agency.

All the great GMs that you guys love to always remind us are doing such a better job couldn't find a way to get him into their lineup? So strange. All the analytics departments, all the player tracking tech, all the professional scouts in the league - they all missed on him.

[Also, using Zub and St. Louis as your arguments? Lol. So bad.]

And yet despite all this, there he is contributing to one of the best teams in the league.

 

[Yak]

Dadanov last season 22,25, 47 Pts playing with Barkov, Huberdeau and company.

Duclair this year 6,18, 24 Pts playing with Barkov, Huberdeau and company. 98 of his PTS have come in past 5 games and is on a roll but has been up and down this season.

Maybe this has more to do with with playing with playing with Barkov, Huberdeau and company.

Dadanov is having a bad season no doubt, maybe he bounces back next season now that we have our team more sorted then the chaos at the beginning of the season. I also feel like DJ Smith has married Dadanov to White and is not working, we need to maybe finding some line mates he clicks with. Not trying to make excuses for his crap season but hopefully he turns it around or we send him back to FLA for a pick.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

So he can be described like this:



But only 1 team could figure out how to fit him into their lineup? Almost every player who scored 20+ last year is making at least double that amount (except ELC players) but somehow Duclair slipped through the cracks.

Even Yzerman went out and signed Namestnikov to 2yrs/$4 million but wasn't interested Duclair? Buffalo went out and got Cody Eakin at $2.25 million x 2 years. Tyson Barrie had one of the worst years of his career and still got $3.75 million. Just a few examples which don't include all the guys who still got dollars and term in free agency.

All the great GMs that you guys love to always remind us are doing such a better job couldn't find a way to get him into their lineup? So strange. All the analytics departments, all the player tracking tech, all the professional scouts in the league - they all missed on him.

[Also, using Zub and St. Louis as your arguments? Lol. So bad.]

LOL. So you point out guys who make a tad more than Duclair and are 20 goal scorers themselves, with longer track records AND signed in far from desirable locals (overpayment anybody) as examples of people not being interested in Duclair? And both have performed much worse. And this somehow proves that GMs were right to not want Duclair? That makes so much sense.

We didn't sign the guy despite watching him for 87 games up close and personal. He did sign in the NHL (we aren't talking about Stephane Da Costa here) and is playing really good hockey on a contending team. Is that so hard to admit that you need bizarre circular logic to prove that he is somehow actually a bad player? Is it really such a bad thing to admit that maybe the Sens didn't make the right call here? I mean, seriously.

St. Louis and Zub were not signed for years. How is that a bad example? And if you need other examples of the NHL community getting things wrong I can provide loads of examples. As said before, simply saying that almost every GM passed on him (which we don't know by the way) means that he's a bad player is such weak logic.

 

[JungleBeat]

Dadanov last season 22,25, 47 Pts playing with Barkov, Huberdeau and company.

Duclair this year 6,18, 24 Pts playing with Barkov, Huberdeau and company. 98 of his PTS have come in past 5 games and is on a roll but has been up and down this season.

Maybe this has more to do with with playing with playing with Barkov, Huberdeau and company.

Dadanov is having a bad season no doubt, maybe he bounces back next season now that we have our team more sorted then the chaos at the beginning of the season. I also feel like DJ Smith has married Dadanov to White and is not working, we need to maybe finding some line mates he clicks with. Not trying to make excuses for his crap season but hopefully he turns it around or we send him back to FLA for a pick.

Playing without Barkov shouldn’t make Dadanov look like a total bum. He’s invisible and is showing no urgency.

 

[BankStreetParade]

LOL. So you point out guys who make a tad more than Duclair and are 20 goal scorers themselves, with longer track records AND signed in far from desirable locals (overpayment anybody) as examples of people not being interested in Duclair? And both have performed much worse. And this somehow proves that GMs were right to not want Duclair? That makes so much sense.

I pointed out a list of all the guys in the NHL who scored 20+ goals last season and what they're making this year. It's hardly complicated or convoluted. Someone describes Duclair as "dynamic" and he gets signed for less money and term than a variety of players around the league. Caps complicated by covid? Nope, guys like Toffoli and others secured their pay and term. The fact is you can't offer a reasonable argument for why he had to wait until near the end of free agency to sign for 1 year and less than $2 million.

Maybe, just maybe, as I said he's not nearly as valued around the league as you and others seem to believe. That's a much more solid and convincing theory than all of the what if scenarios you've presented.

We didn't sign the guy despite watching him for 87 games up close and personal. He did sign in the NHL (we aren't talking about Stephane Da Costa here) and is playing really good hockey on a contending team. Is that so hard to admit that you need bizarre circular logic to prove that he is somehow actually a bad player? Is it really such a bad thing to admit that maybe the Sens didn't make the right call here? I mean, seriously.

Never said he was a bad player. I said he wasn't a player you could win with. What else you got?

St. Louis and Zub were not signed for years. How is that a bad example? And if you need other examples of the NHL community getting things wrong I can provide loads of examples. As said before, simply saying that almost every GM passed on him (which we don't know by the way) means that he's a bad player is such weak logic.

You actually need someone to explain why guys with no track record in the NHL are not comparable to a guy coming off a career best year in goals? And just to reiterate it because you seem to be really confused about it: I never said he was a bad player.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I pointed out a list of all the guys in the NHL who scored 20+ goals last season and what they're making this year. It's hardly complicated or convoluted. Someone describes Duclair as "dynamic" and he gets signed for less money and term than a variety of players around the league. Caps complicated by covid? Nope, guys like Toffoli and others secured their pay and term. The fact is you can't offer a reasonable argument for why he had to wait until near the end of free agency to sign for 1 year and less than $2 million.

Maybe, just maybe, as I said he's not nearly as valued around the league as you and others seem to believe. That's a much more solid and convincing theory than all of the what if scenarios you've presented.



Never said he was a bad player. I said he wasn't a player you could win with. What else you got?



You actually need someone to explain why guys with no track record in the NHL are not comparable to a guy coming off a career best year in goals? And just to reiterate it because you seem to be really confused about it: I never said he was a bad player.

The

Panthers

are

winning

with

Anthony

Duclair

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I pointed out a list of all the guys in the NHL who scored 20+ goals last season and what they're making this year. It's hardly complicated or convoluted. Someone describes Duclair as "dynamic" and he gets signed for less money and term than a variety of players around the league. Caps complicated by covid? Nope, guys like Toffoli and others secured their pay and term. The fact is you can't offer a reasonable argument for why he had to wait until near the end of free agency to sign for 1 year and less than $2 million.

Maybe, just maybe, as I said he's not nearly as valued around the league as you and others seem to believe. That's a much more solid and convincing theory than all of the what if scenarios you've presented.



Never said he was a bad player. I said he wasn't a player you could win with. What else you got?



You actually need someone to explain why guys with no track record in the NHL are not comparable to a guy coming off a career best year in goals? And just to reiterate it because you seem to be really confused about it: I never said he was a bad player.

Oh and LOL at Tyler Toffoli being used as a comparable.

The guy with 4 2o goal seasons and 1 30 goal season.

PLUS he only got a little over 4 million. So yeah, he is a good example of reduced spending during the pandemic.

These are not good arguments you're making.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I pointed out a list of all the guys in the NHL who scored 20+ goals last season and what they're making this year. It's hardly complicated or convoluted. Someone describes Duclair as "dynamic" and he gets signed for less money and term than a variety of players around the league. Caps complicated by covid? Nope, guys like Toffoli and others secured their pay and term. The fact is you can't offer a reasonable argument for why he had to wait until near the end of free agency to sign for 1 year and less than $2 million.

Maybe, just maybe, as I said he's not nearly as valued around the league as you and others seem to believe. That's a much more solid and convincing theory than all of the what if scenarios you've presented.



Never said he was a bad player. I said he wasn't a player you could win with. What else you got?



You actually need someone to explain why guys with no track record in the NHL are not comparable to a guy coming off a career best year in goals? And just to reiterate it because you seem to be really confused about it: I never said he was a bad player.

Martin St. Louis had been to a number of NHL camps, played in exhibition games, etc.. He had been exposed to the NHL community plenty. The NHL GMs got it wrong until Tampa figured it out.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

The fact that we are this deep into arguing over whether letting a 24 year old 23 goal scorer walk for NOTHING onto the roster of division rival (most years) and play was the right move is too much. It's insane.

I hope you have a good night @BankStreetParade

 

[PlayOn]

I don’t think there is such a thing as a guy you can’t win with. There are definitely guys you can’t win with as your top player (see Kessel on the Leafs vs in Pittsburgh as a compliment to Sid/Malkin), but that’s not what Duclair was signed to be. He’s there to offer some secondary scoring and support their stars and he is doing just that. Will he maintain it? Maybe, maybe not - - but he’s still proving to be a valuable piece in the short term and if the Panthers don’t win, it’s probably more due to losing their best dman and facing elite teams like Tampa than because Duclair dragged them down.

 

[Micklebot]

The

Panthers

are

winning

with

Anthony

Duclair

I truly find the "he isn't a player you can win with" the latest argument you can find in sports. It seems to apply to players until it doesn't, Gaborik isn't the kind of player you win with, until he goes to the king's and wins, Kessel isn't the type of player you win with, until he wins with the pens, Yzerman wasn't the type of player you win with early in his career, Hossa was criticised for the same, and the list goes on.

The reality is you need all sorts of players to win, rarely do you see one guy that does it all and you certainly don't see a team built solely of those guys.

Duke is what he is, a depth scorer that can be streaky, play up or down the lineup, and can penalty kill. He isn't particularly physical nor is he a defensive stud but he will contribute when given the opportunity that suits his skillset.

I think he misjudged his worth, and hurt himself by acting as his own agent. I suspect He probably could have found a better deal had he used an agent, they would have helped him understand the market and price himself accordingly, instead teams went a different direction and the market dried up before he could adjust his ask to be inline with how teams valued him

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I truly find the "he isn't a player you can win with" the latest argument you can find in sports. It seems to apply to players until it doesn't, Gaborik isn't the kind of player you win with, until he goes to the king's and wins, Kessel isn't the type of player you win with, until he wins with the pens, Yzerman wasn't the type of player you win with early in his career, Hossa was criticised for the same, and the list goes on.

The reality is you need all sorts of players to win, rarely do you see one guy that does it all and you certainly don't see a team built solely of those guys.

Duke is what he is, a depth scorer that can be streaky, play up or down the lineup, and can penalty kill. He isn't particularly physical nor is he a defensive stud but he will contribute when given the opportunity that suits his skillset.

I think he misjudged his worth, and hurt himself by acting as his own agent. I suspect He probably could have found a better deal had he used an agent, they would have helped him understand the market and price himself accordingly, instead teams went a different direction and the market dried up before he could adjust his ask to be inline with how teams valued him

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Six Assets]

Duclair had 3 goals in his last 30 games for us.

 

[Micklebot]

Duclair had 3 goals in his last 30 games for us.

Sure, he's streaky. On the flip side, in the other 57 games he played for us he scored 28 goals.