OT: Around the NHL 2021-22: Broken Culture Edition

[Malkinstheman]

It's so troubling that so many people think all these guys getting fired is mob mentality or cancel culture.

It blows my mind that they are incapable of caring about the victim at a human level.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Wow, that mainboard thread is vile.

This is exactly why victims of sexual abuse so often keep quiet.

My aunt and uncle were molested by my POS great uncle, and they never said anything until 20 and 40 years later… long after this lowlife died.

It's so troubling that so many people think all these guys getting fired is mob mentality or cancel culture.

It blows my mind that they are incapable of caring about the victim at a human level.

And you have many blaming Beach.

“He was too worried about his career!”
“He couldn’t fight off this twerp!”
“He must be gay and liked it!”

Lots of f***ed up ppl, not that it’s news to me, sadly.

 

[Pens1566]

Wow, that mainboard thread is vile.

Which one? There's at least 3 "look at me I'm a caveman" variants right now. They make Archie Bunker look reasonable by comparison ...

 

[BigEezyE22]

Taylor Hall was asked about the Hawks situation post game. Not sure what him answering a question has to do with Crosby.

Because Sid was too worried about his wrist to be ar Taylor Halls postgame interview.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Which one? There's at least 3 "look at me I'm a caveman" variants right now. They make Archie Bunker look reasonable by comparison ...

I mean, watching a 21 year old want to be 65 is weird enough, but man... those posts. Them ain't right.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I think a lot of it is just cope. A lot of sportsball fans who have a large part of their identity tied up in fandom/exploits of their favorite players and teams. The idea that the entire legacy of the last ten years is tarnished forever by moral cowardice is too much, it broke their brains. So now it's all about splitting hairs about what Toews et al really knew, what their legal responsibilities were to do something, being a captain doesn't mean anything, the only one to blame is Bowman and everyone else thought he was handling it (for ten years apparently). You'd see a similar thing here if it came out about the Penguins. Nature of obsessive sports fandom mixed with some shitty upbringing.

The craziest thing is all that needed to happen was a report to authorities. That's it. Issue a press release that a podunk video coach who'd only been with the team two years allegedly did this and wash their hands of it. Their responsibilities are done, those kids are never abused, the intern is never harassed, and everyone still goes into the Hall of Fame as honored 3-Cup champs.

Instead, Quenneville and the rest will never live it down. Their legacies are done, it's over. It boggles the mind. It could be pure stupidity but my gut is telling me there is more to it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I love Chicago the city, my former adopted home very much, but some of the Hawks die-hards are frankly, certifiably insane.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I mean, take off the predator AND the enablers.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Thinking about all of this... I can't help but go back a few months to when I was criticizing TBL for their cap shenanigans that eventually led to a B2B Cup. I wasn't and still am not a fan. I consider it cheating and not within the spirit of things. I was called naïve, silly, etc. and that I'd do it, too. Ya know... for the Big Win. "If you aren't cheating you aren't trying" with the attendant "great" figures of history who had opined as much. I dropped it at the time... who cares, really? This is obviously a MUCH darker and bigger deal and I'm not trying to compare them, necessarily.

But I can't help but feel there is a common thread I'm sorta tugging at, here. What we find not just acceptable but even expected. Being told that Toews shouldn't be expected to step up and come to the aid of Beach because that's up to the "adults" or whatever. When even a elementary school kid knows that stepping up to the schoolyard bully and defending the little guy is the right thing to do. Hell I quit organized hockey many many years ago because I couldn't tolerate the ignorance and told them as much. I've quit jobs over racist co-workers/management and told them as much. Obviously I have far less on the line than a guy like Toews. I'm just some guy. But does that really excuse it? Does money, prestige and the Big Win wash away the disgusting underbelly?

I dunno. It's all so awful. Just kind of rambling, here. Some of this feels like much bigger issues that extend beyond just sport.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Not to drag up a conversation that I think has already ended, but maybe teams should stop making teenagers captains?

 

[Big McLargehuge]

This is a culture war to a lot of people. And by 'this' I mean *broadly motions 360°*.

It doesn't matter how bad the thing that was done is. The truly bad thing is being made to think about it.

 

[Pens1566]

Not to drag up a conversation that I think has already ended, but maybe teams should stop making teenagers captains?

Yeah, but the intangibles ...

 

[Gurglesons]

Thinking about all of this... I can't help but go back a few months to when I was criticizing TBL for their cap shenanigans that eventually led to a B2B Cup. I wasn't and still am not a fan. I consider it cheating and not within the spirit of things. I was called naïve, silly, etc. and that I'd do it, too. Ya know... for the Big Win. "If you aren't cheating you aren't trying" with the attendant "great" figures of history who had opined as much. I dropped it at the time... who cares, really? This is obviously a MUCH darker and bigger deal and I'm not trying to compare them, necessarily.

But I can't help but feel there is a common thread I'm sorta tugging at, here. What we find not just acceptable but even expected. Being told that Toews shouldn't be expected to step up and come to the aid of Beach because that's up to the "adults" or whatever. When even a elementary school kid knows that stepping up to the schoolyard bully and defending the little guy is the right thing to do. Hell I quit organized hockey many many years ago because I couldn't tolerate the ignorance and told them as much. I've quit jobs over racist co-workers/management and told them as much. Obviously I have far less on the line than a guy like Toews. I'm just some guy. But does that really excuse it? Does money, prestige and the Big Win wash away the disgusting underbelly?

I dunno. It's all so awful. Just kind of rambling, here. Some of this feels like much bigger issues that extend beyond just sport.

I think there is a lot of nuance here:

# 1. Toews statement was horribly tone deaf which is surprising because he is a very smart guy who is very sensitive to a lot of cultural issues. Figured he’d have a better take.

# 2. Toews and Beach were the same level of employee despite this captain label. We have no idea what the players were privy of. People say “everyone knew”, but what did everyone know? Did Toews know Beach and Aldrich were engaged sexually? Did he know they were engaged sexually and Beach was stating it was not consensual? Did he know that Beach had made a claim with management and management told the team it was investigated?

# 3. I don’t think it is fair to expect a 20, 21 year old to know how to act. I never have raped someone, but sexuality and sexual circumstances are so confusing at that age. I look at some of the relationships and hookups that happened at that time period in my life and question what happened to me and what I did to people.

 

[Gurglesons]

Chevy gets away with it. Completely bizarre. But I guess not really since it is the NHL.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

In case anyone thought the NHL was actually serious about this.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think there is a lot of nuance here:

# 1. Toews statement was horribly tone deaf which is surprising because he is a very smart guy who is very sensitive to a lot of cultural issues. Figured he’d have a better take.

# 2. Toews and Beach were the same level of employee despite this captain label. We have no idea what the players were privy of. People say “everyone knew”, but what did everyone know? Did Toews know Beach and Aldrich were engaged sexually? Did he know they were engaged sexually and Beach was stating it was not consensual? Did he know that Beach had made a claim with management and management told the team it was investigated?

# 3. I don’t think it is fair to expect a 20, 21 year old to know how to act. I never have raped someone, but sexuality and sexual circumstances are so confusing at that age. I look at some of the relationships and hookups that happened at that time period in my life and question what happened to me and what I did to people.

I don't necessarily agree entirely but I see what you are saying.

Toews isn't some monster, really. He was a young man that, even at just 20, was already deeply ingrained into hockey/sports culture. I would like to think that many "normal" people would have handled it differently than he did. I CERTAINLY would hope most people would come up with a much, much better way to frame things all these years later. Particularly when it comes to calling these cretins "good men" or whatever. They aren't good men... they are utter garbage people. I don't care how much money they have or who they've coached/managed or what they've "won."

But am I able to clear away some of my disgust and righteous condemnation to look harder at the issue? Yeah. And it isn't hard to understand that Toews isn't some magical, infalliable leader of men. That was simply bestowed upon him by the media, etc -- a total wish and fabrication. He's just another scared follower who has been molded into a good little soldier to do the bidding of this lumbering ancient beast that is toxic sports culture. Ya know... for the win. Go take out his ankles, Bobby. All that.

I'm disappointed in Toews and of course everyone in that locker room at the time. But like you said, even toxic culture aside... being in your early 20s is a weird time and you are frankly pretty f***ing stupid. I'm not trying to excuse him only acknowledging that you DO have a point. This is, after all, a large part of what you do for a living.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't necessarily agree entirely but I see what you are saying.

Toews isn't some monster, really. He was a young man that, even at just 20, was already deeply ingrained into hockey/sports culture. I would like to think that many "normal" people would have handled it differently than he did. I CERTAINLY would hope most people would come up with a much, much better way to frame things all these years later. Particularly when it comes to calling these cretins "good men" or whatever. They aren't good men... they are utter garbage people. I don't care how much money they have or who they've coached/managed or what they've "won."

But am I able to clear away some of my disgust and righteous condemnation to look harder at the issue? Yeah. And it isn't hard to understand that Toews isn't some magical, infalliable leader of men. That was simply bestowed upon him by the media, etc -- a total wish and fabrication. He's just another scared follower who has been molded into a good little soldier to do the bidding of this lumbering ancient beast that is toxic sports culture. Ya know... for the win. Go take out his ankles, Bobby. All that.

I'm disappointed in Toews and of course everyone in that locker room at the time. But like you said, even toxic culture aside... being in your early 20s is a weird time and you are frankly pretty f***ing stupid. I'm not trying to excuse him only acknowledging that you DO have a point. This is, after all, a large part of what you do for a living.

I think Toews had a moral liability to act differently including the statement he gave this week.

In terms of legal accountability I think he has none and if we are going to hold players to moral accountability for every circumstance in their life half the league is probably horrible people and shouldn’t be playing.

You start punishing people for not speaking up and it is a slippery slope. Especially when these types of allegations are not validated. And in reality how were the Blackhawks validating this incident at the time?

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I don't necessarily agree entirely but I see what you are saying.

Toews isn't some monster, really. He was a young man that, even at just 20, was already deeply ingrained into hockey/sports culture. I would like to think that many "normal" people would have handled it differently than he did. I CERTAINLY would hope most people would come up with a much, much better way to frame things all these years later. Particularly when it comes to calling these cretins "good men" or whatever. They aren't good men... they are utter garbage people. I don't care how much money they have or who they've coached/managed or what they've "won."

But am I able to clear away some of my disgust and righteous condemnation to look harder at the issue? Yeah. And it isn't hard to understand that Toews isn't some magical, infalliable leader of men. That was simply bestowed upon him by the media, etc -- a total wish and fabrication. He's just another scared follower who has been molded into a good little soldier to do the bidding of this lumbering ancient beast that is toxic sports culture. Ya know... for the win. Go take out his ankles, Bobby. All that.

I'm disappointed in Toews and of course everyone in that locker room at the time. But like you said, even toxic culture aside... being in your early 20s is a weird time and you are frankly pretty f***ing stupid. I'm not trying to excuse him only acknowledging that you DO have a point. This is, after all, a large part of what you do for a living.

Toews was 22 and old enough to know what's good and not, though yes these are legit points. But then to add to that his comments now 11 years later as a 33 year old, tells me he is something of a bad apple and at the very least, a deeply misguided man. I don't put as much stock into impersonal forces as you do, as there are so many examples everyday of people who stand up for what's right. To me there are key moments in everyone's lives, that can pass you by if you aren't paying attention or are focused on the wrong things. All these guys had the chance to take this seriously but they were too busy chasing the first franchise Cup in 49 years. That meant more to them than another human being who wasn't really part of that chase. That to me is the crux of it but I can't pretend that all or even most people would act as they did; at the end of the day these kinds of moments provide a test and these guys all failed IMO. And it wasn't a small failure. The effects of it will go on for decades, and in the lives of those kids too.

 

[Gurglesons]

Toews was 22 and old enough to know what's good and not, though yes these are legit points. But then to add to that his comments now 11 years later as a 33 year old, tells me he is something of a bad apple and at the very least, a deeply misguided man. I don't put as much stock into impersonal forces as you do, as there are so many examples everyday of people who stand up for what's right. To me there are key moments in everyone's lives, that can pass you by if you aren't paying attention or are focused on the wrong things. All these guys had the chance to take this seriously but they were too busy chasing the first franchise Cup in 49 years. That meant more to them than another human being who wasn't really part of that chase. That to me is the crux of it but I can't pretend that all or even most people would act as they did; at the end of the day these kinds of moments provide a test and these guys all failed IMO. And it wasn't a small failure. The effects of it will go on for decades, and in the lives of those kids too.

This is the kind of stuff I’m speaking to above. Everyone including Beach allowed Aldrich to get away with it. This would have continued if they handled this inside of the organization.

I’m sure all these players and people have their own demons surrounding the circumstance. Trying to play the blame game is ridiculous.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I'm not going to rehash yesterday's arguments but this is not a blame game, but a pursuit of justice for the victims. I don't personally care about the demons of people who had a hand in things that led to that event, the coverup after, the mocking of a victim etc. Hopefully justice is served for all concerned. And while justice might not come in form of sanction for all of them due to legal culpability, I think it's safe to say that most all of their reputations will be tarnished by this and that's as it should be. It should also be used as a case study for years to come for the consequences of organizational culture and leadership.

 

[Gurglesons]

Man Brunette is fat now lol

 

[Gurglesons]

should we be surprised a team with military paraphernalia as it’s logo allows for this to happen?

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I don't understand how someone who works directly for the GM is not part of the senior leadership team. Of course he is. He was an Assistant GM. I don't agree with this at all, even if Bettman's statement is written like the lawyer he is.