Around the NHL - 2018 Stanley Cup Champions, the Washington Capitals

[Machinehead]

Is this really true though?

They always iced really solid possession teams under Renney but didn't have the horses on D. Torts was obviously all about the D (and they got better personnel) but the possession suffered under his system, though they were a top 10 possession team in the shortened 2013 season. 2014 was the one year where it came together (AV taking the shackles off the offense+ still having a mostly Tortorella schooled roster.) After AV got a chance to sink his teeth into the team things obviously changed.

The problem with the franchise isn't leaning on Hank, they've legitimately had excellent teams aside from him. The problem (IMO, where the last core failed) really boils down to 2 things.

1) Management not taking a step back after Jagr left.
2) the 2010 draft. Tarasenko is probably the difference between having a cup (maybe 2) and none.

If they weren't able to hoodwink Montreal into sending McDonagh for Gomez, #2 doesn't even come into play as far as impacting a potential cup winning team.

Basically, go all in on this rebuild. It may fail, but it has a much higher hit rate for success than trying to do 2 things at once, which requires so much to go right.

I'm really surprised that there are/were as many people who were hell bent against selling at the deadline and the prospect that this team may not be very good next year. I will never understand the mentality of fans who would rather see this team be a perennial 1st-2nd round bubble team than suffer for a bit and possibly build a winner.

Kinda went off course there, but there ya go.

They had better teams under Renney yes, but Lundqvist was considered pretty poor in the playoffs until 2012. He didn't win a game 7 until 2012. Renney was already gone. If Lundqvist was replacement level in 2008, we stomp Pittsburgh in round 2. After that, who knows? He was in the .800's in that series. He was a kid at the time and I won't dwell on it, but we're obviously not talking about the same Hank during the Renney era.

We had a truly excellent team aside from Prime Hank once - late 2014 and 2015. We won the Presidents Trophy and lost to a dynasty in the SCF. What if we built a defense that could have done that consistently from 2012 on and got six kicks at the can? I guarantee you we hit one.

Whether it was relying on Hank to much, or simple ineptitude, it's absolutely a valid claim to say we've never put a good defense in front of him.

The closest we came was trading for McDonagh by accident. He's been by far our best defenseman since Leetch, and let's call a spade a spade, he's not that good. He was in parts of 2013 and in 2014, but since then, he's spent more time being mediocre in this league than he spent being elite. In his defense, injuries had a lot to do with it, but he is what he is. This is not a post meant to insult Ryan McDonagh, but when he's the absolute best your organization has produced in an entire generation, and you have to go miles and miles to find #2, you may have an issue on defense.

 

[Kaapo Kakko]

I would trade all of Lundqvists Game 7 numbers in exchange for him being able to hold multiple 2 goal leads in the finals back in 2014. The only stat that matters is getting your name on the Stanley Cup. Please don't tell me the '94 team was better etc. because the 2015 Rangers won the Presidents Trophy just the same as the 1994 Rangers did. I'd say that was a good enough team to win a cup, hall of famers or not.

Yeah, the '94 Rangers were better than the '14 Rangers. But the rest of the NHL was also better in '94 than it was in '14. Lundqvist had a chance to win it and he didn't. I don't want to hear any more excuses for him. 2-0 Game 1 and he coughed it up. 3-1 Game 2 and he coughed it up. Sick of it. Lets just move on from him completely because I'm tired of the conversation being "When is Lundqvist going to get his cup?". The answer is: I don't care when or if he gets it. I want the RANGERS to win a Stanley Cup, not Lundqvist.

 

[haohmaru]

I would trade all of Lundqvists Game 7 numbers in exchange for him being able to hold multiple 2 goal leads in the finals back in 2014. The only stat that matters is getting your name on the Stanley Cup. Please don't tell me the '94 team was better etc. because the 2015 Rangers won the Presidents Trophy just the same as the 1994 Rangers did. I'd say that was a good enough team to win a cup, hall of famers or not.

Yeah, the '94 Rangers were better than the '14 Rangers. But the rest of the NHL was also better in '94 than it was in '14. Lundqvist had a chance to win it and he didn't. I don't want to hear any more excuses for him. 2-0 Game 1 and he coughed it up. 3-1 Game 2 and he coughed it up. Sick of it. Lets just move on from him completely because I'm tired of the conversation being "When is Lundqvist going to get his cup?". The answer is: I don't care when or if he gets it. I want the RANGERS to win a Stanley Cup, not Lundqvist.

What a crock. Two goal leads. The Rangers were seriously outplayed, by a MILE, in that series. They were fortunate 3 games even went to OT/2OT.

The one game they managed to win by a goal they were outshot 15-1 in the 3rd. FIFTEEN TO ONE.

Blame the goalie. It's easy. It's also lazy. LA was the better team.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That may be the fastest I've ever placed someone on ignore lmao.

They had better teams under Renney yes, but Lundqvist was considered pretty poor in the playoffs until 2012. He didn't win a game 7 until 2012. Renney was already gone. If Lundqvist was replacement level in 2008, we stomp Pittsburgh in round 2. After that, who knows? He was in the .800's in that series. He was a kid at the time and I won't dwell on it, but we're obviously not talking about the same Hank during the Renney era.

We had a truly excellent team aside from Prime Hank once - late 2014 and 2015. We won the Presidents Trophy and lost to a dynasty in the SCF. What if we built a defense that could have done that consistently from 2012 on and got six kicks at the can? I guarantee you we hit one.

Whether it was relying on Hank to much, or simple ineptitude, it's absolutely a valid claim to say we've never put a good defense in front of him.

The closest we came was trading for McDonagh by accident. He's been by far our best defenseman since Leetch, and let's call a spade a spade, he's not that good. He was in parts of 2013 and in 2014, but since then, he's spent more time being mediocre in this league than he spent being elite. In his defense, injuries had a lot to do with it, but he is what he is. This is not a post meant to insult Ryan McDonagh, but when he's the absolute best your organization has produced in an entire generation, and you have to go miles and miles to find #2, you may have an issue on defense.

You were all aboard the extend McDonagh train like 3 months ago.

What happened since then?

And I disagree that they never had a good defense in front of Hank. They may have hit on 1 had the D stayed healthy in 2015 but thats another conversation.

They had so many things go right for them between 2012-2015 (before that really.) Despite that, it still wasn't enough. Part of the problem is making the wrong decisions (letting Stralman walk, extending G and Staal, again I shake my head at those who want to make the same mistake with Zuccarello) since the cup final appearance, but beyond that the reality is that doing things the way that they did just ends up giving you a shorter window to get something done, if that window even opens at all.

We're lucky that it did, even if we weren't able to carry the cup through it.

Lets try to rely a little bit less on luck this time around. Do this the right way or we will become the Knicks as you so fear.

 

[egelband]

Caps have some good deserving players. Ovie, Backstrom, Oshie, Smith-Pelle. Very likeable. Wilson really ruins it though. Embarrassing for the NHL that a team won multiple playoff games via plays that will no-doubt be discussed in the off-season and heavily sanctioned next season.
Were it not for that situation I’d actually feel pretty good about the first guys I mentioned above winning the cup.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I'm not downplaying Lundqvist's game at all but let's just see how those stats play out without the shot blockers he's used to having in front of him.

This year is going to be very telling..

Whether there's shot blockers on the roster or not, Hank is used to getting bombarded.

Cam Talbot is the only goalie in the league who faced more high danger shots last year (per Corsica).

Hank was left out to dry, but until we traded away half our team, he had kept us within a few points of the playoffs. And even then, he had consecutive 50 save wins to try to keep dragging the carcasses of about a dozen guys into the post-season.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Our roster has been sans win by shot blocking for almost half a decade now.

 

[aufheben]

Sooooooo I guess we’re not going to mention that the Caps were 24th in advanced stats are we?

Actually, Micah Blake McCurdy’s playoff prediction model had Washington as the #2 favorites with a 15% chance to win the Cup. Pittsburgh was only marginally higher at 16%:

Playoff Chances entering 2018-04-10

 

[NYR]

Whether there's shot blockers on the roster or not, Hank is used to getting bombarded.

Cam Talbot is the only goalie in the league who faced more high danger shots last year (per Corsica).

Hank was left out to dry, but until we traded away half our team, he had kept us within a few points of the playoffs. And even then, he had consecutive 50 save wins to try to keep dragging the carcasses of about a dozen guys into the post-season.

You lost me at "Corsica" but if you think it was bad before, Just wait until this season.
Bombarded is going to be an understatement depending on UFA IMO..

 

[Machinehead]

That may be the fastest I've ever placed someone on ignore lmao.




You were all aboard the extend McDonagh train like 3 months ago.

What happened since then?

And I disagree that they never had a good defense in front of Hank. They may have hit on 1 had the D stayed healthy in 2015 but thats another conversation.

They had so many things go right for them between 2012-2015 (before that really.) Despite that, it still wasn't enough. Part of the problem is making the wrong decisions (letting Stralman walk, extending G and Staal, again I shake my head at those who want to make the same mistake with Zuccarello) since the cup final appearance, but beyond that the reality is that doing things the way that they did just ends up giving you a shorter window to get something done, if that window even opens at all.

We're lucky that it did, even if we weren't able to carry the cup through it.

Lets try to rely a little bit less on luck this time around. Do this the right way or we will become the Knicks as you so fear.

Who me?

I get what you're saying, and I'm certainly not blaming him for anything. I just feel he gives our FO a layer of security I'd like to see them sink or swim without.

As for McDonagh, I was pretty terrified by the way he played with Tampa, especially in the playoffs. I can no longer blame the Rangers, the system, or Girardi with him.

 

[aufheben]

This is the playoff prediction bracket I referred to earlier:

Also even if you were to only look at Corsi, it's not even that inaccurate:

Regaular Season
5-on-5 Score & Venue Adjusted Corsi

#2 Boston (R2)
#4 Winnipeg (WCF)
#5 Nashville (R2)
#6 Tampa Bay (ECF)
#7 Pittsburgh (R2)
#11 Vegas (SCF)
#12 San Jose (R2)[/QUOTE]

 

[NYR94]

 

[Boris Zubov]

15-2-2? How does a goalie have anything other than a win or a loss in a playoff game?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

15-2-2? How does a goalie have anything other than a win or a loss in a playoff game?

Hes counting losses in OT

2012 vs the schmucks

2014 vs LA.

15-4 with those games just being what they are.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I'm not downplaying Lundqvist's game at all but let's just see how those stats play out without the shot blockers he's used to having in front of him.

This year is going to be very telling..

Wait. Are you of the belief that Lundqvist is partially a product of a system of shot blocking?****

You know he only played behind that system for a couple seasons right? He faced more scoring chances than any goalie in the league the past few seasons under AV, what is next season going to tell us about shot blocking?



***In his career he played behing a heavy shotblocking system that consisted of shotblocking outside the norm of other teams which lasted from 2011-2013. (Torts' last 2.5 seasons - this is a fact)***

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I would trade all of Lundqvists Game 7 numbers in exchange for him being able to hold multiple 2 goal leads in the finals back in 2014. The only stat that matters is getting your name on the Stanley Cup. Please don't tell me the '94 team was better etc. because the 2015 Rangers won the Presidents Trophy just the same as the 1994 Rangers did. I'd say that was a good enough team to win a cup, hall of famers or not.

Yeah, the '94 Rangers were better than the '14 Rangers. But the rest of the NHL was also better in '94 than it was in '14. Lundqvist had a chance to win it and he didn't. I don't want to hear any more excuses for him. 2-0 Game 1 and he coughed it up. 3-1 Game 2 and he coughed it up. Sick of it. Lets just move on from him completely because I'm tired of the conversation being "When is Lundqvist going to get his cup?". The answer is: I don't care when or if he gets it. I want the RANGERS to win a Stanley Cup, not Lundqvist.

You're just being obtuse. There is nothing else to say to you besides you're ignoring facts and your viewpoint is beyond biased.

Mike Richter is my all time favorite hockey player and i bet even Mike himself would tell you the Rangers probably win multiple cups with Lundqvist in net in place of him. The Richter argument makes no sense. Lundqvist is beyond a doubt a better player than Richter ever was, Richter would be the first to tell you that.

Blaming the goalie is the laziest possible analysis in hockey. Truth is the Kings were the worst matchup for us in 2014 (I think our 2014 team would've beaten any other WC finalist since 2013 to date with Vegas) and we got overrun by them. Scoring an extra goal or two on a (horrible that whole 2014 playoffs) Quick doesn't change that. Hank was the only reason those games were close. Denying that is just denying reality.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

You lost me at "Corsica" but if you think it was bad before, Just wait until this season.
Bombarded is going to be an understatement depending on UFA IMO..

I often yell at my desktop "You lost me at google" when I'm looking for facts.

 

[Synergy27]

Caps have some good deserving players. Ovie, Backstrom, Oshie, Smith-Pelle. Very likeable. Wilson really ruins it though. Embarrassing for the NHL that a team won multiple playoff games via plays that will no-doubt be discussed in the off-season and heavily sanctioned next season.
Were it not for that situation I’d actually feel pretty good about the first guys I mentioned above winning the cup.

I was thinking about this while watching the Caps players celebrate. Outside of Lundqvist and Zucc, there isn't anyone on the Rangers who I have a real desire to see win it all. This would have been true before the sell off this year too.

It's going to take a few years to rebuild that identity and bond with the fans as well I think.

 

[Ail]

I have to be honest after the Pens won two straight and I had to walk through Center City with crazed Eagles fans, this win does nothing for me from an anger or sadness side of things. I'm actually happy for Ovi. The people here pissed off, I feel you. But I had to live in Philly while that ****hole team won the Super Bowl and had to explain people over and over why I live in Philly and don't root for the Eagles. I had to listen to fair weather fans pretending like they're die hards. This is a blip on the radar for me.

LMAO is this a uniquely Philadelphia/Pennsylvania thing? One of the most commonly asked questions by Flyers fans is, "If you live in Pennsylvania why aren't you a Flyers fan? Who cares where your parents are from derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp."

So annoying.

 

[Ail]

I'm not downplaying Lundqvist's game at all but let's just see how those stats play out without the shot blockers he's used to having in front of him.

This year is going to be very telling..

Yeah I'm sure if Lundqvist's numbers drop suddenly it will be because of all of those unblocked shots and not age or the significantly younger and inexperienced team in front of him.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

He'll retire a Ranger.

This team isn't winning a cup in the next 3 years.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Rangers fans congratulating the Caps and happy for Ovechkin. You people are sick. How can you call yourself a Rangers fan.

I think I can speak for a lot here when I say we are fans of the game first and foremost. Seeing Ovechkin win a cup is great. He earned it. He's one of the classiest players in the league. If being happy for Ovechkin getting his cap makes me a "bad Rangers fan" or whatever, so be it. Don't care. I love the game. I enjoy a game in Brno as much as a game at MSG (Maybe I enjoy that game in Brno even more, but that's a different discussion). Of all the hockey I watch throughout the year, each league has its charm. Whether it's the WHL, Liiga, SHL, KHL, EL or even the EBHL here in Austria... I enjoy it all. Slovenia vs Italy at the Div 1 WC this year, where both teams pull their goalie at 3-3 was something you will never see in the NHL for obvious reasons (no 3-point system) and it's great. Attending a game in Vegas in their inaugural season was a fantastic experience. Truly mind-blowing how awesome that was. Watching Ovechkin fight year after year to win the Cup is something we as Ranger fans should admire. And seeing the best pure goalscorer of his generation get his name on the Cup is great. People who admire Crosby for the same reason should be allowed to. That doesn't make them bad Ranger fans.

 

[NYR]

Wait. Are you of the belief that Lundqvist is partially a product of a system of shot blocking?****

You know he only played behind that system for a couple seasons right? He faced more scoring chances than any goalie in the league the past few seasons under AV, what is next season going to tell us about shot blocking?



***In his career he played behing a heavy shotblocking system that consisted of shotblocking outside the norm of other teams which lasted from 2011-2013. (Torts' last 2.5 seasons - this is a fact)***

Do I believe he's a product of the system and shot blocking?
No
Has he benefited greatly from shot blocking?
Absolutely
Girardi and McD blocked shots up until the second they left so just because they haven't used Torts' system in a while doesn't mean they stopped blocking shots.
Even though G wasn't here last year, McD was still in the top 20 SB's so my point is that Lundqvist will no longer have that extra protection from those 2 players depending on replacement signings via UFA.

 

[nyrage]

I was rooting for Vegas because the Caps have been our rivals. When Washington won, I wasn't happy for Ovy, but I thought he definitely deserved it. I'm not happy for them, but I can respect it. No lost sleep here, but I can understand that it sucks for Rangers fans in Washington. There are at least a handful of other teams that winning the Cup would have pissed me off.

 

[NYR]

Yeah I'm sure if Lundqvist's numbers drop suddenly it will be because of all of those unblocked shots and not age or the significantly younger and inexperienced team in front of him.

Not sure what point you're trying to make other than the obvious but you just watched the Caps suffocate Vegas' offense and shot blocking had a lot to do with that.
It's a necessary evil..