Around The League 2021 season - part VII

[MadDevil]

That’s because he went from playing with Scheiffle to Little. It’s like going from Nico to Zajac.

There was no way he would be keeping that pace when playing with a borderline top #6 center that isn’t known to be a great distributor.

Hmmm...according to natural stat trick he played more with Scheiffele than Little at 5v5 his last two years there, so I'm not sure that tracks. Unless I misread the stats, which is always possible.

 

[MartyOwns]

Here is the comparison over the past 3 years. Bratt is better in basically every notable category, including CF%, SF%, GF%, xGF%, HDCF%, and HDGF%.

You're welcome for these facts!

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

do you not consider goals a notable category?

 

[Blackjack]

If you think Bratt is unknown to the rest of the league, try watching an opposing broadcast some time. Every single announcer knows who he is and how dangerous he can be. When he scores they go "well, that's Jesper Bratt for you, not much [embarrassed defender] could do about that."

 

[MadDevil]

Comparing Bratt to Laine is kind of flawed to begin with considering they're very different types of players. Bratt is an excellent play driver that will probably never have big goal totals while Laine is a goal scorer who is pretty bad at driving play.

Goals are obviously important, but how much do you want to pay for them if that player is not very good at much else? If we would be guaranteed the Laine from his first two years in the league, I'd be willing to pony up more than for the Laine of the last 2+ years.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

do you not consider goals a notable category?

sure I do. Over the past 3 years at even strength, Bratt is at 0.82 goals/60 and Laine is at 0.92 goals/60. I never argued that Bratt is a better goal scorer than Laine.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[MartyOwns]

sure I do. Over the past 3 years at even strength, Bratt is at 0.82 goals/60 and Laine is at 0.92 goals/60. I never argued that Bratt is a better goal scorer than Laine.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

you said bratt was better at basically every notable category, then listed a bunch of intangible advanced stats. even now, you're listing ES goals, as if we don't need someone who can bury pucks on our PP like laine. bratt's getting PP time, i think he scored 1 goal? i could be wrong about that.

it's just funny to see people twist themselves into pretzels to say that bratt is better than laine- of course, without ever explicitly saying so, because that would be like saying cale hulse was better than scott stevens.

of course you understand that laine is the better player, so what's the point of the discussion? CBJ would never ever trade one for one because they're not Pejorative Slured. so what are we even talking about?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I'm not sure I would say Laine is the better player....that is my point. He is certainly the better goal scorer, and you are correct in saying that we could definitely use a player like him to bury pucks on the PP. But goal scoring is not the only attribute.

Now, at what cost? Trading multiple high end assets (including probably Bratt and a 1st round pick) on top of paying him $8+ million/year? Yeah, I'm out on that.

if Laine were a free agent and we could sign him to a reasonable AAV? Sure count me in. But that is obviously not the case.

 

[Blackjack]

you said bratt was better at basically every notable category, then listed a bunch of intangible advanced stats. even now, you're listing ES goals, as if we don't need someone who can bury pucks on our PP like laine. bratt's getting PP time, i think he scored 1 goal? i could be wrong about that.

it's just funny to see people twist themselves into pretzels to say that bratt is better than laine- of course, without ever explicitly saying so, because that would be like saying cale hulse was better than scott stevens.

of course you understand that laine is the better player, so what's the point of the discussion? CBJ would never ever trade one for one because they're not Pejorative Slured. so what are we even talking about?

I think that right now Jesper Bratt is a far better player than Laine.

 

[MartyOwns]

I'm not sure I would say Laine is the better player....that is my point. He is certainly the better goal scorer, and you are correct in saying that we could definitely use a player like him to bury pucks on the PP. But goal scoring is not the only attribute.

Now, at what cost? Trading multiple high end assets (including probably Bratt and a 1st round pick) on top of paying him $8+ million/year? Yeah, I'm out on that.

if Laine were a free agent and we could sign him to a reasonable AAV? Sure count me in. But that is obviously not the case.

yes, the cost in a trade would be too high i agree. it would be a hell of a lot more than jesper bratt

 

[MartyOwns]

I think that right now Jesper Bratt is a far better player than Laine.

so trading bratt for laine would be an overpayment then? come on now

 

[Guttersniped]

That’s because he went from playing with Scheiffle to Little. It’s like going from Nico to Zajac.

There was no way he would be keeping that pace when playing with a borderline top #6 center that isn’t known to be a great distributor.

You’re completely wrong here, Laine played with Scheifele and Connor for most of 2019-20. A major reason why that happened was Little got hit in the head with a puck in November 4th 2019, it broke his eardrum and that likely ended his NHL career. Little played 7 games in 2019-20 and he hasn’t played since.

Here are the 5v5 ice times for 2019-20, you can see he played on that line ~760 minutes vs ~270 minutes. And when he didn’t play with Scheifele and Connor he was forced to play with talentless bums like Wheeler and Ehlers.

Patrik Laine - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

Humorously, people talk about Laine scoring 35 assists (20 5v5) in 2019-20, like he had some magical transformation to a playmaker when he was playing with goal machines Connor and Scheifele.

Also, Laine only played part of his first season with Scheifele and Ehlers was a big part of his season that year (and probably the play driver he needs the most).

In his second season Laine played with Little and then Stasny in the last third of the season, pretty much always with Ehlers on wing. There was also ~10 game stint with Wheeler and Conner, Laine never played on a line with Scheifele in 2017-18. He even publicly bitched about it.

Then in 2018-19 he did play with Little, first with Connor and then with Roslovic. Admittedly having Roslovic with them was pretty brutal but that’s because Laine at least needs someone like Ehlers to carry his ass up the ice.

Laine is a shooter who, when handled correctly, can be productive, particularly on the power play. He isn’t an elite forward who should get an enormous contract though, he doesn’t even perform that well with good offensive players unless they mesh incredibly well and carry the play for him.

My guess is one of the reason’s Chevy dumped Laine is he got to play with his precious Scheifele on the top line last season and didn’t show much of anything special. And still wants a ton of money. (And Ehlers is likely better off not having to drag Laine’s ass up the ice, he’s having his most productive season ever.)

 

[Blackjack]

so trading bratt for laine would be an overpayment then? come on now

Huge overpayment given their respective contracts, but even ignoring that, Bratt is the better player. Laine is a disaster defensively while Bratt has consistently been the best defensive forward on the Devils since Coleman left.

 

[TheDuke93]

You’re completely wrong here, Laine played with Scheifele and Connor for most of 2019-20. A major reason why that happened was Little got hit in the head with a puck in November 4th 2019, it broke his eardrum and that likely ended his NHL career. Little played 7 games in 2019-20 and he hasn’t played since.

Here are the 5v5 ice times for 2019-20, you can see he played on that line ~760 minutes vs ~270 minutes. And when he didn’t play with Scheifele and Connor he was forced to play with talentless bums like Wheeler and Ehlers.

Patrik Laine - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

Humorously, people talk about Laine scoring 35 assists (20 5v5) in 2019-20, like he had some magical transformation to a playmaker when he was playing with goal machines Connor and Scheifele.

Also, Laine only played part of his first season with Scheifele and Ehlers was a big part of his season that year (and probably the play driver he needs the most).

In his second season Laine played with Little and then Stasny in the last third of the season, pretty much always with Ehlers on wing. There was also ~10 game stint with Wheeler and Conner, Laine never played on a line with Scheifele in 2017-18. He even publicly bitched about it.

Then in 2018-19 he did play with Little, first with Connor and then with Roslovic. Admittedly having Roslovic with them was pretty brutal but that’s because Laine at least needs someone like Ehlers to carry his ass up the ice.

Laine is a shooter who, when handled correctly, can be productive, particularly on the power play. He isn’t an elite forward who should get an enormous contract though, he doesn’t even perform that well with good offensive players unless they mesh incredibly well and carry the play for him.

My guess is one of the reason’s Chevy dumped Laine is he got to play with his precious Scheifele on the top line last season and didn’t show much of anything special. And still wants a ton of money. (And Ehlers is likely better off not having to drag Laine’s ass up the ice, he’s having his most productive season ever.)

He is a hard player to play with.

 

[MartyOwns]

Huge overpayment given their respective contracts, but even ignoring that, Bratt is the better player. Laine is a disaster defensively while Bratt has consistently been the best defensive forward on the Devils since Coleman left.

well, agree to disagree. i don't think you'll find a single non-devils fan that would consider bratt for laine a huge overpayment.

 

[Guttersniped]

I think that right now Jesper Bratt is a far better player than Laine.

They are different kind of players, but I wouldn’t pay Jesper Bratt 8-10m either. You can’t separate contracts from discussions about players unless these are fantasy hockey teams and not NHL teams.

 

[Blackjack]

well, agree to disagree. i don't think you'll find a single non-devils fan that would consider bratt for laine a huge overpayment.

I agree with you on the second point, but I think that popular wisdom would be terribly wrong. Laine was a very hyped second overall pick. He came into the league as an 18 year old and scored 80 goals in his first two seasons. His shot is absolutely incredible, and he's still young. Lots of good reasons to hold the player in high regard.

Bratt is a 6th round pick who has never even scored 40 points in a season. Fans that don't have the benefit of watching him every night might not understand how much he tilts the ice. They might not understand that he transforms practically any line that he plays on. They might not realize that any forward that he plays with sees improvement in almost every measurable metric.

Bratt has his slumps and can be frustrating sometimes when you feel like he can do more, but I don't think that should diminish what he does accomplish out there.

 

[Guttersniped]

He is a hard player to play with.

Because he has to be carried, literally dragged up and down the ice, and he doesn’t make the players he plays with better because he’s a bad offensive player with an absolute elite finishing ability. I don’t care about Laine’s defense that much, he’s a scoring winger and you aren’t paying him for that, but his offense sucks too. He’s very limited.

If he had less of a draft pedigree and his contract demand weren’t crazy then he would have more appeal. But Laine turned down the deal Connor took in the 2019 off-season, 7 year/7.14m, because he thought he’s worth more but he really isn’t. (And anyone who compares him to Ovechkin should be committed to an insane asylum.)

Columbus is going to overpay him because they traded Dubois for him. They don’t have a choice here. It was a weirdly inevitable trade, Jarmo needed a big roster piece, not just futures, and Roslovic was born and raised in Columbus. Hell, Roslovic, played on a Ohio Blue Jackets AAA team back in the day and was holding out at home in... Columbus. No one is trading for Laine.

 

[MartyOwns]

I agree with you on the second point, but I think that popular wisdom would be terribly wrong. Laine was a very hyped second overall pick. He came into the league as an 18 year old and scored 80 goals in his first two seasons. His shot is absolutely incredible, and he's still young. Lots of good reasons to hold the player in high regard.

Bratt is a 6th round pick who has never even scored 40 points in a season. Fans that don't have the benefit of watching him every night might not understand how much he tilts the ice. They might not understand that he transforms practically any line that he plays on. They might not realize that any forward that he plays with sees improvement in almost every measurable metric.

Bratt has his slumps and can be frustrating sometimes when you feel like he can do more, but I don't think that should diminish what he does accomplish out there.

yeah and i don't mean to diminish him- i like him and i don't want him traded. i think he's a perfect 2nd liner that can move up if needed. i was just objectively assessing the 2 players because it's hard to believe what i read on here sometimes.

 

[Blackjack]

(And anyone who compares him to Ovechkin should be committed to an insane asylum.)

I think this is unfair. I'd never compare him to Ovechkin and I should absolutely be committed to an insane asylum.

yeah and i don't mean to diminish him- i like him and i don't want him traded. i think he's a perfect 2nd liner that can move up if needed. i was just objectively assessing the 2 players because it's hard to believe what i read on here sometimes.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Laine, both contract wise and his play. His first two seasons were absolutely amazing, he was pretty much automatic on one timers from the Ovechkin spot.

 

[Guttersniped]

I think this is unfair. I'd never compare him to Ovechkin and I should absolutely be committed to an insane asylum.



It will be interesting to see what happens to Laine, both contract wise and his play. His first two seasons were absolutely amazing, he was pretty much automatic on one timers from the Ovechkin spot.

For all this talk about Scheifele, ironically Laine likely benefited the most from Winnipeg’s more elite version of Bratt, Nikolaj Ehlers. Scheifele is an unstoppable beast, Connors is a goal machine but Ehlers is arguably secretly the Jets best forward and he’s definitely their best play driver.

Not being on a line with Ehlers often proved to be a problem for Laine. I’m not masochistic enough to watch Columbus but Domi is allegedly good at that sort of thing. (I hate Max Domi so much, I would be so unhappy if he was on the Devils and he’s the only player I could say that about. Nope, not even Marchand, because, you know, he’s a great player.)

Torts has literally turned to line bingo looking at their lines. Damn, Domi has played with 5% of the entire population of Columbus, Ohio at some point this season.

With Laine, it looks like he was with Roslovic/Atkinson early on and Domi/Bjorstrand recently but now Laine’s with, uh, Matteau/Texier. That Texier line is technically the second line, and Roslovic is centering the 1st line with Atkinson and Bjorkstrand. Domi is on suicide watch the third line with Nathan Gerbe and someone named Eric Robinson, a NCAA free agent who went to Princeton and has an annoying haircut (that’s all I bothered to pick up from Hockey-Reference.com). Torts might want to stop snorting all that Adderall or something. [Legal Notice: the Adderall reference was only a joke, those lines are bad.]

 

[TheDuke93]

For all this talk about Scheifele, ironically Laine likely benefited the most from Winnipeg’s more elite version of Bratt, Nikolaj Ehlers. Scheifele is an unstoppable beast, Connors is a goal machine but Ehlers is arguably secretly the Jets best forward and he’s definitely their best play driver.

Not being on a line with Ehlers often proved to be a problem for Laine. I’m not masochistic enough to watch Columbus but Domi is allegedly good at that sort of thing. (I hate Max Domi so much, I would be so unhappy if he was on the Devils and he’s the only player I could say that about. Nope, not even Marchand, because, you know, he’s a great player.)

Torts has literally turned to line bingo looking at their lines. Damn, Domi has played with 5% of the entire population of Columbus, Ohio at some point this season.

With Laine, it looks like he was with Roslovic/Atkinson early on and Domi/Bjorstrand recently but now Laine’s with, uh, Matteau/Texier. That Texier line is technically the second line, and Roslovic is centering the 1st line with Atkinson and Bjorkstrand. Domi is on suicide watch the third line with Nathan Gerbe and someone named Eric Robinson, a NCAA free agent who went to Princeton and has an annoying haircut (that’s all I bothered to pick up from Hockey-Reference.com). Torts might want to stop snorting all that Adderall or something. [Legal Notice: the Adderall reference was only a joke, those lines are bad.]

Play drivers are arguably more valuable then goal scorers and ironically we as an organization flip flop between having one or the other the past decade. The last time we had both we made the f***ing finals lol.

 

[Guttersniped]

Play drivers are arguably more valuable then goal scorers and ironically we as an organization flip flop between having one or the other the past decade. The last time we had both we made the f***ing finals lol.

You can see Torts really values play drivers, what with the way he put Domi with a mid-30s fringe forward midget and a banger FA from college while Laine is playing with Texier, who is only really good at forechecking and who can’t carry a puck anywhere without actually picking it up with his hands and putting it in his pocket, and *gestures at Stefan Matteau*. I know Torts will no doubt change those lines yet again almost immediately (and then change them again and again) and they’re having their annual mass injurypalooza but WTF.

 

[Blackjack]

For all this talk about Scheifele, ironically Laine likely benefited the most from Winnipeg’s more elite version of Bratt, Nikolaj Ehlers. Scheifele is an unstoppable beast, Connors is a goal machine but Ehlers is arguably secretly the Jets best forward and he’s definitely their best play driver.

Not being on a line with Ehlers often proved to be a problem for Laine. I’m not masochistic enough to watch Columbus but Domi is allegedly good at that sort of thing. (I hate Max Domi so much, I would be so unhappy if he was on the Devils and he’s the only player I could say that about. Nope, not even Marchand, because, you know, he’s a great player.)

Torts has literally turned to line bingo looking at their lines. Damn, Domi has played with 5% of the entire population of Columbus, Ohio at some point this season.

With Laine, it looks like he was with Roslovic/Atkinson early on and Domi/Bjorstrand recently but now Laine’s with, uh, Matteau/Texier. That Texier line is technically the second line, and Roslovic is centering the 1st line with Atkinson and Bjorkstrand. Domi is on suicide watch the third line with Nathan Gerbe and someone named Eric Robinson, a NCAA free agent who went to Princeton and has an annoying haircut (that’s all I bothered to pick up from Hockey-Reference.com). Torts might want to stop snorting all that Adderall or something. [Legal Notice: the Adderall reference was only a joke, those lines are bad.]

Ahh, Ehlers is such a good analog for Bratt, but obviously even better. I want Bratt to approach Ehlers even if he never quite makes it like a logarithmic function forever approaching its asymptote.

 

[TheDuke93]

Ahh, Ehlers is such a good analog for Bratt, but obviously even better. I want Bratt to approach Ehlers even if he never quite makes it like a logarithmic function forever approaching its asymptote.

I have 0 clue wtf either of those terms mean but right there with ya brother.

 

[Blackjack]

I have 0 clue wtf either of those terms mean but right there with ya brother.

Sure buddy, happy to help. "Analog" means that the two players are similar or comparable in important respects, even if there are significant differences between them. And "approach" means to get closer to.