Armchair GM V

[SoupNazi]

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[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Maybe I'm just rambling on here, but what do you think are the chances that the Red Wings will need to send a player of value or a pick in a deal with Howard to unload his salary during the off season? A lot of RFAs will get paid and the Wings need the cap space.

I'm thinking the perfect fit would be Calgary, seeing as they are looking to add a starter, but I'm not so sure they would do a 1 for 1 - be it for a player or a pick - trade. On the Sirius/XM NHL Network Show, they were also discussing that Reimer would be a pretty attractive option for Calgary aswell, so it will most likely not be a Howard-or-bust situation.

Zero.

The Wings aren't going to have to dump something of value for a lesser asset with Howard. Or rather, they won't, because they're going to sign Mrazek to a bridge for like 2.75-3 and the cap numbers will work out. Or Howard will get dealt for a mid round pick to someplace like Calgary or Toronto with some retention.

The Wings will have enough for their RFAs to be paid unless one asks for crazy money or someone does something crazy and offersheets DeKeyser for big.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Zero.

The Wings aren't going to have to dump something of value for a lesser asset with Howard. Or rather, they won't, because they're going to sign Mrazek to a bridge for like 2.75-3 and the cap numbers will work out. Or Howard will get dealt for a mid round pick to someplace like Calgary or Toronto with some retention.

The Wings will have enough for their RFAs to be paid unless one asks for crazy money or someone does something crazy and offersheets DeKeyser for big.

Mrazek should fire his agent if he gets him less annual compensation than Howard. Petr is clearly the better goalie and has been for every stage of their respective careers. I know people think Mrazek should just accept less as it's a RFA deal but if he wants to he can take the Wings to arbitration and get much more than what you suggest. He is clearly the better goaltender and has been the team's MVP this year. Those guys don't settle for "hometown discounts". Look at Montreal without Price and you can very easily make the case for Mrazek to be paid top dollar among goalies.

So yeah, the Wings could be stuck with goalies eating up north of $10 million in cap space, on top of Kronwall, Zetterberg and Franzen's bloated contracts. There's a lot of dead money building up that is going to squeeze this team over the next few years.

Holland could have handled this by using a compliance buyout on Mule, bringing Mrazek up after he won a Calder Cup and then trading Howard, trading other assets at their peak - Abdelkader, Helm, Smith - for draft picks. He's done none of those things and the roster is going to be top heavy with guys earning premium salaries who are either completely out of the league, healthy scratches, or whose games are going to fall off completely if they haven't already.

It's all over but the shouting.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Mrazek should fire his agent if he gets him less annual compensation than Howard. Petr is clearly the better goalie and has been for every stage of their respective careers. I know people think Mrazek should just accept less as it's a RFA deal but if he wants to he can take the Wings to arbitration and get much more than what you suggest. He is clearly the better goaltender and has been the team's MVP this year. Those guys don't settle for "hometown discounts". Look at Montreal without Price and you can very easily make the case for Mrazek to be paid top dollar among goalies.

So yeah, the Wings could be stuck with goalies eating up north of $10 million in cap space, on top of Kronwall, Zetterberg and Franzen's bloated contracts. There's a lot of dead money building up that is going to squeeze this team over the next few years.

Holland could have handled this by using a compliance buyout on Mule, bringing Mrazek up after he won a Calder Cup and then trading Howard, trading other assets at their peak - Abdelkader, Helm, Smith - for draft picks. He's done none of those things and the roster is going to be top heavy with guys earning premium salaries who are either completely out of the league, healthy scratches, or whose games are going to fall off completely if they haven't already.

It's all over but the shouting.

1) The contracts were great until the league retroactively decided to mess with them. And seriously, they're really not that bad. Kronner and Z are still worth their deals after slowing down a ton and Franzen is LTIRetired.

2) Mrazek is all that, but he's also an RFA. And that's not how RFA deals work. A guy in his first full season does not get more than a guy who signed as a UFA. It's not about a hometown discount, it's leverage.

3). People really really need to stop with this captain hindsight crap. If you trade Helm and Abdelkader who plays for them? When Smith was worth anything was as a prospect, so the Wings wouldn't have traded a 1st round dman that they think could be a big time piece for them. As soon as it was obvious he wasn't anything great, his value dropped.

 

[Claypool]

Mrazek should fire his agent if he gets him less annual compensation than Howard.

Mrazek won't because he understands how the CBA works.

 

[Run the Jewels]

1) The contracts were great until the league retroactively decided to mess with them. And seriously, they're really not that bad. Kronner and Z are still worth their deals after slowing down a ton and Franzen is LTIRetired.

2) Mrazek is all that, but he's also an RFA. And that's not how RFA deals work. A guy in his first full season does not get more than a guy who signed as a UFA. It's not about a hometown discount, it's leverage.

3). People really really need to stop with this captain hindsight crap. If you trade Helm and Abdelkader who plays for them? When Smith was worth anything was as a prospect, so the Wings wouldn't have traded a 1st round dman that they think could be a big time piece for them. As soon as it was obvious he wasn't anything great, his value dropped.

It's most certainly not hindsight when you've been talking about it from the get go in real time.

It's also shocking people still don't understand the basic math behind how bad Franzen's contract has become. People used an absurd twist of logic to suggest the contract wasn't so bad given Mule's hot and cold spells and his injury history. Well it turns out you're getting jack **** for a $4 million per year cap hit over the final 6 years of that deal. These past two seasons Franzen has put up 23 points and gone -12. If Holland has any conscience whatsoever he will never allow Mule to suit up again.

So...it would cost another $4 million or so to replace Franzen's previous production by going above the cap. Add it all up and you are paying $8 million total or so per year for a guy who can still play hockey and replace Franzen's production which was right aronud 20ish goals and 45 points when healthy. Brilliant use of resources.

The league gave Holland an out through the compliance buyouts. Holland decided not to, saying you can't buy 30 goal scorers at the store. If only someone could have considered the possibility that Franzen would be completely useless for the last 6 years of that deal.

That's $13.5 million in actual salary for 23 points and -12 from last season through next season. It's a horrendous use of cap space and total lack of foresight. If another GM did this we would be tearing them apart.

 

[Claypool]

It's most certainly not hindsight when you've been talking about it from the get go in real time.

It's also shocking people still don't understand the basic math behind how bad Franzen's contract has become. People used an absurd twist of logic to suggest the contract wasn't so bad given Mule's hot and cold spells and his injury history. Well it turns out you're getting jack **** for a $4 million per year cap hit over the final 6 years of that deal. These past two seasons Franzen has put up 23 points and gone -12. If Holland has any conscience whatsoever he will never allow Mule to suit up again.

So...it would cost another $4 million or so to replace Franzen's previous production by going above the cap. Add it all up and you are paying $8 million total or so per year for a guy who can still play hockey and replace Franzen's production which was right aronud 20ish goals and 45 points when healthy. Brilliant use of resources.

The league gave Holland an out through the compliance buyouts. Holland decided not to, saying you can't buy 30 goal scorers at the store. If only someone could have considered the possibility that Franzen would be completely useless for the last 6 years of that deal.

That's $13.5 million in actual salary for 23 points and -12 from last season through next season. It's a horrendous use of cap space and total lack of foresight. If another GM did this we would be tearing them apart.

I'm not really sure what you're yelling about. Franzen's career is likely over, and considering the last four years of his deal only pay him $7.5M total he's probably just going to sit on IR collecting a paycheck until it runs out.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It's most certainly not hindsight when you've been talking about it from the get go in real time.

It's also shocking people still don't understand the basic math behind how bad Franzen's contract has become. People used an absurd twist of logic to suggest the contract wasn't so bad given Mule's hot and cold spells and his injury history. Well it turns out you're getting jack **** for a $4 million per year cap hit over the final 6 years of that deal. These past two seasons Franzen has put up 23 points and gone -12. If Holland has any conscience whatsoever he will never allow Mule to suit up again.

So...it would cost another $4 million or so to replace Franzen's previous production by going above the cap. Add it all up and you are paying $8 million total or so per year for a guy who can still play hockey and replace Franzen's production which was right aronud 20ish goals and 45 points when healthy. Brilliant use of resources.

The league gave Holland an out through the compliance buyouts. Holland decided not to, saying you can't buy 30 goal scorers at the store. If only someone could have considered the possibility that Franzen would be completely useless for the last 6 years of that deal.

That's $13.5 million in actual salary for 23 points and -12 from last season through next season. It's a horrendous use of cap space and total lack of foresight. If another GM did this we would be tearing them apart.

How dare Ken Holland not have the foresight to know that Rob Klinkhammer was going to hit Franzen head to head and basically end his career!

And no, we wouldn't. Nobody said **** about Marc Savard and Chris Pronger being on LTIR forever as being bad management and lack of foresight by their GMs. It is only Red Wings "fans" who want to bag on their own team and own GM for reasons that are beyond me.

You want to complain about Holland's bad management, look at Cleary, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, White. Look at missing on basically every pick from about 2000 to about 2007 with the exception of Franzen and Filppula. Look at routinely missing on defensemen. It is ridiculous to harp on a contract that is now bad because the league got a bug up its ass during the last lockout and retroactively punished teams for using the system while it was legal.

E: the "fans" reference might be a little harsh, but it's just annoying as hell to read the same crap being brought up over and over and over and people complain about Holland like he's the worst GM to ever exist and it's not even been a decade since the last time we won a Cup. And the team hasn't missed the playoffs despite the retirement and non replacement of a top three D of all time.

 

[Shaman464]

How dare Ken Holland not have the foresight to know that Rob Klinkhammer was going to hit Franzen head to head and basically end his career!

And no, we wouldn't. Nobody said **** about Marc Savard and Chris Pronger being on LTIR forever as being bad management and lack of foresight by their GMs. It is only Red Wings "fans" who want to bag on their own team and own GM for reasons that are beyond me.

You want to complain about Holland's bad management, look at Cleary, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, White. Look at missing on basically every pick from about 2000 to about 2007 with the exception of Franzen and Filppula. Look at routinely missing on defensemen. It is ridiculous to harp on a contract that is now bad because the league got a bug up its ass during the last lockout and retroactively punished teams for using the system while it was legal.

E: the "fans" reference might be a little harsh, but it's just annoying as hell to read the same crap being brought up over and over and over and people complain about Holland like he's the worst GM to ever exist and it's not even been a decade since the last time we won a Cup. And the team hasn't missed the playoffs despite the retirement and non replacement of a top three D of all time.

The writing was on the wall that these type of contracts that circumvented the cap were going to be dealt with in forth coming CBAs. Also Franzen was exactly the type of player that shouldn't have gotten a long term contract. Everything about his injury issues (2007-08 playoff run) and his sudden emergence out of nowhere cried red flags. This is even worse when it was between him and Hossa, who was a more complete player, and had a trackrecord of good health and scoring ability.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

The writing was on the wall that these type of contracts that circumvented the cap were going to be dealt with in forth coming CBAs. Also Franzen was exactly the type of player that shouldn't have gotten a long term contract. Everything about his injury issues (2007-08 playoff run) and his sudden emergence out of nowhere cried red flags. This is even worse when it was between him and Hossa, who was a more complete player, and had a trackrecord of good health and scoring ability.

Pretty huge ******** that those contracts weren't grandfather claused. The league permitted them when they were signed, you can't just retroactively punish teams for a hole in the cba you ratified and then for the contracts that you permitted. Absolutely insane.

 

[Shaman464]

Pretty huge ******** that those contracts weren't grandfather claused. The league permitted them when they were signed, you can't just retroactively punish teams for a hole in the cba you ratified and then for the contracts that you permitted. Absolutely insane.

As I said, the league made a huge deal out of them around the beginning of 2009, it hit a high water mark in 2010, but it was obvious pretty quickly after the Z deal that the NHL missed a huge loophole and Bettman et al were pissed.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'm not really sure what you're yelling about. Franzen's career is likely over, and considering the last four years of his deal only pay him $7.5M total he's probably just going to sit on IR collecting a paycheck until it runs out.

So...you're saying 23 points and -12 is worth $21 million? Would love some clarification on how this was money well spent.

 

[Run the Jewels]

How dare Ken Holland not have the foresight to know that Rob Klinkhammer was going to hit Franzen head to head and basically end his career!

And no, we wouldn't. Nobody said **** about Marc Savard and Chris Pronger being on LTIR forever as being bad management and lack of foresight by their GMs. It is only Red Wings "fans" who want to bag on their own team and own GM for reasons that are beyond me.

You want to complain about Holland's bad management, look at Cleary, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, White. Look at missing on basically every pick from about 2000 to about 2007 with the exception of Franzen and Filppula. Look at routinely missing on defensemen. It is ridiculous to harp on a contract that is now bad because the league got a bug up its ass during the last lockout and retroactively punished teams for using the system while it was legal.

E: the "fans" reference might be a little harsh, but it's just annoying as hell to read the same crap being brought up over and over and over and people complain about Holland like he's the worst GM to ever exist and it's not even been a decade since the last time we won a Cup. And the team hasn't missed the playoffs despite the retirement and non replacement of a top three D of all time.

As far as being a fan is concerned you're more than welcome to check out my track record as a poster as I've been on here for nearly a decade. If you want to pretend there weren't legit questions about Franzens ability to play out that contract well I guess that's your right. I was on this very forum arguing he should have been a compliance buyout. So all I can say is I stand by my recorded history right here.

 

[InjuredChoker]

So...you're saying 23 points and -12 is worth $21 million? Would love some clarification on how this was money well spent.

insurance will pay most of that though.

 

[Bench]

Pretty huge ******** that those contracts weren't grandfather claused. The league permitted them when they were signed, you can't just retroactively punish teams for a hole in the cba you ratified and then for the contracts that you permitted. Absolutely insane.

They literally changed the rules in the middle of the game. Teams like the Hawks and Wings would not have signed their players to those deals under the new rules. So to allow it to happen, give it your blessing, then retroactively punish them... I don't get it. The fact that the Wings have two of those deals on the books makes me really bitter about it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

As far as being a fan is concerned you're more than welcome to check out my track record as a poster as I've been on here for nearly a decade. If you want to pretend there weren't legit questions about Franzens ability to play out that contract well I guess that's your right. I was on this very forum arguing he should have been a compliance buyout. So all I can say is I stand by my recorded history right here.

Ok. I guess that is good foresight by you. But not using a CBO on Franzen is the exact same reason a guy like Abdelkader gets 4.25 for 7 years or David Clarkson gets 5.25 for that same period. You can have reservations about his play, but the fact of the matter is guys with that combination of skills are rare and you don't want to throw them out. And also, a compliance buy out of Johan Franzen would have been what? 2/3rds of around 26 million?

So you would have paid Johan Franzen 17M in 2012-2013, had to find a replacement player for 31 points in 41 games in the lockout year, 41 in 54 the next year...

It's a good argument as to whether he should have been a buyout because of the recapture risk, but it's not like the CBO would have been the cure-all on Franzen. With him being LTIRetired, the debate really comes down to did you want Illitch to pony up about 22-23M in one year from 2012-2014, or stretch it out?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

As I said, the league made a huge deal out of them around the beginning of 2009, it hit a high water mark in 2010, but it was obvious pretty quickly after the Z deal that the NHL missed a huge loophole and Bettman et al were pissed.

No... They were pissed after the Hossa and Kovalchuk deals. Hossa because he talked early retirement with the Hawks and Kovalchuk's because it made a mockery of the CBA. Zetterbergs may have been where they were like "ok maybe we should reconsider", but those other two increased it to "it might be a good idea to do something and backloaded contracts must be stopped!, respectively."

If it were just the Zetterberg and Pronger and Crosby contracts, the league would have talked about it for a second during the lockout negotiations but ultimately not had it been a hill they would die on in the proceedings. Not providing any retroactive relief wasn't a "shame on you for not reading the signs" scenario, it was a "you thumbed your nose at our legal document and pissed on page 1834 regarding contract AAV calculation.", so screw you, deal with your recapture.

 

[BinCookin]

Sweeney.

You have to realize who you are arguing with sometimes. There are a few people on this board that enjoy the "idea" that Detroit is the worst team ever, the worst run ever, with the worst players ever. Etc Etc
And they are ALWAYS negative. Always.

I would like to post a few facts about Franzen:

0.75 PPG player (CONSISTENTLY every year) - streaky throughout the year, but consistently got to that number.
His Contract was amazing and payed him less than 4 Mil for life. At the time it was genius.
The entire "fear" of the contract was his last 3-4 years where he would be a "useless plug". Well those years are being erased as we speak due to LTIR. It doesnt even cost the wings $$$, as insurance pays for him.
People like whipping boys, but quite frankly The only contract maybe better than Franzen's was Kronwalls. $$ for production could not get better.

So far there has been literally no negatives to his Contract. Its a non-factor right now.

And anyone who ever brings up these contracts and later says CHI is how you want to run your team.... Ya Hossa for life at 5.3 Mil is the same deal. And he helped them win cups, and gets paid actually 7-8 Mil per year.

 

[Run the Jewels]

So yes, let's say you are participating in a thread called "Armchair GM" and you do a thought experiment about what it would look like if we had a proactive GM who was committed to rebuilding the team, not stifling his best prospects by signing guys well past their prime to horrid contracts. What would that roster potentially look like?

Z - Pav - Sheahan (replaces Abby who you obviously trade)
Larkin - Richards - Nyquist
Tatar - Athanasiou - Pulkinnen
Jurco - Glendening - Bert (replaces Helm who you obviously trade)

DeKeyser - Myers (who you acquired by trading Mantha + a 1st round pick)
Kronwall - Green
Quincey - Marchenko
Ericsson

Mrazek
Coreau

Gone
Franzen - compliance buyout ($4 million saved)
Howard - via trade ($5.3 million saved)
Mantha - via trade
Abby - via trade ($4.2 million saved)
Helm - via trade ($2.75 million to $3.25 million saved)
Smith - via trade ($2.75 million saved)

That's close to $19-20 million in fresh cap space. You could have of course acquired players via trade if you feel like you need to replace Helm's 8 goals or Howard's .909 save percentage. However the larger goal is to stockpile draft picks and hope one eventually turns into a good top pairing d-man or an elite PMD. Maybe you get a guy who turns into a PPG forward. This is a reasonable approach if you are committed to "rebuilding on the fly". Reasonable minds can disagree about "rebuild on the fly" being the best route to take - has it ever been done successfully? But let's save that conversation for later.

Is the roster above really any worse than the one that will face Chicago today? I'm sure some will say it is impossible to replace everything that Helm brings to the team and that Smith is an elite PMD in the making and that's fine. History will show that all of these guys other than Franzen are pretty replaceable. I hold out hope Mantha will put it together, however he looks like your typical first round Red Wing draft pick - a lock to make the NHL but nothing to indicate he is going to be one of the better players in the league.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

That roster is nowhere near Chicago's level.

 

[Lampedampe]

So yes, let's say you are participating in a thread called "Armchair GM" and you do a thought experiment about what it would look like if we had a proactive GM who was committed to rebuilding the team, not stifling his best prospects by signing guys well past their prime to horrid contracts. What would that roster potentially look like?

Z - Pav - Sheahan (replaces Abby who you obviously trade)
Larkin - Richards - Nyquist
Tatar - Athanasiou - Pulkinnen
Jurco - Glendening - Bert (replaces Helm who you obviously trade)

DeKeyser - Myers (who you acquired by trading Mantha + a 1st round pick)
Kronwall - Green
Quincey - Marchenko
Ericsson

Mrazek
Coreau

Gone
Franzen - compliance buyout ($4 million saved)
Howard - via trade ($5.3 million saved)
Mantha - via trade
Abby - via trade ($4.2 million saved)
Helm - via trade ($2.75 million to $3.25 million saved)
Smith - via trade ($2.75 million saved)

That's close to $19-20 million in fresh cap space. You could have of course acquired players via trade if you feel like you need to replace Helm's 8 goals or Howard's .909 save percentage. However the larger goal is to stockpile draft picks and hope one eventually turns into a good top pairing d-man or an elite PMD. Maybe you get a guy who turns into a PPG forward. This is a reasonable approach if you are committed to "rebuilding on the fly". Reasonable minds can disagree about "rebuild on the fly" being the best route to take - has it ever been done successfully? But let's save that conversation for later.

Is the roster above really any worse than the one that will face Chicago today? I'm sure some will say it is impossible to replace everything that Helm brings to the team and that Smith is an elite PMD in the making and that's fine. History will show that all of these guys other than Franzen are pretty replaceable. I hold out hope Mantha will put it together, however he looks like your typical first round Red Wing draft pick - a lock to make the NHL but nothing to indicate he is going to be one of the better players in the league.

Why would we keep richards though, i'd keep Abby and put Larkin as Center :p Abby isn't really movable either tbh and i see no reason moving him at this point, since the contract is good as for now. And why buy out Franzen when he's just gonna LTIR retire?

I was very fond of the idea of trading for Myers but at this point i'd rather keep a 4 years younger Mantha who still has a lot of potential. Since the team will most likely go into a smaller re-tool 2-3 years from now when Euro twins and Kronwall are probaby gone or atleast pretty much done.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

So yes, let's say you are participating in a thread called "Armchair GM" and you do a thought experiment about what it would look like if we had a proactive GM who was committed to rebuilding the team, not stifling his best prospects by signing guys well past their prime to horrid contracts. What would that roster potentially look like?

Z - Pav - Sheahan (replaces Abby who you obviously trade)
Larkin - Richards - Nyquist
Tatar - Athanasiou - Pulkinnen
Jurco - Glendening - Bert (replaces Helm who you obviously trade)

DeKeyser - Myers (who you acquired by trading Mantha + a 1st round pick)
Kronwall - Green
Quincey - Marchenko
Ericsson

Mrazek
Coreau

Gone
Franzen - compliance buyout ($4 million saved)
Howard - via trade ($5.3 million saved)
Mantha - via trade
Abby - via trade ($4.2 million saved)
Helm - via trade ($2.75 million to $3.25 million saved)
Smith - via trade ($2.75 million saved)

That's close to $19-20 million in fresh cap space. You could have of course acquired players via trade if you feel like you need to replace Helm's 8 goals or Howard's .909 save percentage. However the larger goal is to stockpile draft picks and hope one eventually turns into a good top pairing d-man or an elite PMD. Maybe you get a guy who turns into a PPG forward. This is a reasonable approach if you are committed to "rebuilding on the fly". Reasonable minds can disagree about "rebuild on the fly" being the best route to take - has it ever been done successfully? But let's save that conversation for later.

Is the roster above really any worse than the one that will face Chicago today? I'm sure some will say it is impossible to replace everything that Helm brings to the team and that Smith is an elite PMD in the making and that's fine. History will show that all of these guys other than Franzen are pretty replaceable. I hold out hope Mantha will put it together, however he looks like your typical first round Red Wing draft pick - a lock to make the NHL but nothing to indicate he is going to be one of the better players in the league.

Richards wont be back this season unless he wants to take a similar contract that he signed for with Chicago.

And how are you going to use a compliance buy out on Franzen unless the salary cap drops big time and they plan on giving a couple out again.

Mantha+Detroit's 2106 1st for Myers Yeah no thanks, We're talking about Mr Conservative Ken Holland here no way he would ever do that.

And if you think that we're going to be able to unload on Howard's $5.3M contract without taking on another bad contract you're only fooling yourself wont happen.

And you can't be serious about Abdelkader no way does he get moved, And putting Sheahan in his spot is pretty bad in what world as we see now. Will Sheahan even come close to putting up at least 40+ points like Abdelkader can. Holland isn't moving him.

You've us trading Abdelkader, Helm and Smith for what? Picks what're we moving them for. First off if we moved Abdelkader it wouldn't be for picks but a similar player in return and Holland isn't going to move both Helm and Smith now for picks when he could've done that at the trade deadline not at the draft.

So you going to pay Ericsson $4.25M for the next 4 years to sit in the pressbox yeah good luck with that. If you're going to use a compliance buy out it should be used on either Howard or Ericsson not Franzen who could be put on LTIR for the next 4 years and not cost us any thing.

Your $19M-$20M isn't realistic Howard wont get moved without another bad contract coming our way. And Abdelkader wont get moved unless another similar player is coming back Holland's not trading him for picks that's not realistic same could be said about Helm and Smith if either get moved it's going to be most likely for an upgrade on D

Not sure that the lineup you've here is any better then what we've now, Mantha would be a nice upgrade in the top 6 in the near future and trading him for Myers not sure how that's a good upgrade on D Looks good on paper but don't see how any of your moves are realistic. Helm will be aloud to walk this summer that's about it along with Richards and pretty sure according to Blashill unless we make an major upgrade on D like a Vatanen, Trouba or Shattenkirk that Ouellet will be on the team next season.

All and all i don't see this as an improvement. No way will Sheahan be on the top line over Abdelkader. And doesn't Abdelkader have a NTC no way does he waive it his first years into a new deal nor would Holland ask him to.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

that roster i am sorry is very unrealistic

1)to move howard it is going to COST US, eithe
- we take back an equally bad but fortunately shorter contract(1-2 years rather then howies 3)
- we add a 3rd rd pick or equivalent prospect along with howard for like a 5th or 6th rd pick)

some posters will say its not fair but cap space is more valuable than howard to EVERY team in the league

ex, howard for wideman, howard plus sproul/hicketts to carolina for a 5th

2) not a chance we trade abdelkader

3) not a chance we trade mantha plus a 1st for myers, at best, at the absolute best KH could do at his job is too trade nyquist for vatanen. No chance on Shatty has KH isnt a good enough or smart enough GM to make that happen

4) we will resign helm, period.... DH is red wing draft pick, prospect, development success story, role player, loyal soldier, etc, etc. DH WILL resign for 3-4 more years at 3-3.75$ a season

5) Smith has more chance of going the route of Lashoff then he does of being traded

6) NOT buying out franzen when Gary Bettman all but said the two compliance buyouts granted to each team(after last lockout) were done almost exclusively for guys like Johan was a colossal mistake, no chance he gets traded or is bought out at this point

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So yes, let's say you are participating in a thread called "Armchair GM" and you do a thought experiment about what it would look like if we had a proactive GM who was committed to rebuilding the team, not stifling his best prospects by signing guys well past their prime to horrid contracts. What would that roster potentially look like?

Z - Pav - Sheahan (replaces Abby who you obviously trade)
Larkin - Richards - Nyquist
Tatar - Athanasiou - Pulkinnen
Jurco - Glendening - Bert (replaces Helm who you obviously trade)

DeKeyser - Myers (who you acquired by trading Mantha + a 1st round pick)
Kronwall - Green
Quincey - Marchenko
Ericsson

Mrazek
Coreau

Gone
Franzen - compliance buyout ($4 million saved)
Howard - via trade ($5.3 million saved)
Mantha - via trade
Abby - via trade ($4.2 million saved)
Helm - via trade ($2.75 million to $3.25 million saved)
Smith - via trade ($2.75 million saved)

That's close to $19-20 million in fresh cap space. You could have of course acquired players via trade if you feel like you need to replace Helm's 8 goals or Howard's .909 save percentage. However the larger goal is to stockpile draft picks and hope one eventually turns into a good top pairing d-man or an elite PMD. Maybe you get a guy who turns into a PPG forward. This is a reasonable approach if you are committed to "rebuilding on the fly". Reasonable minds can disagree about "rebuild on the fly" being the best route to take - has it ever been done successfully? But let's save that conversation for later.

Is the roster above really any worse than the one that will face Chicago today? I'm sure some will say it is impossible to replace everything that Helm brings to the team and that Smith is an elite PMD in the making and that's fine. History will show that all of these guys other than Franzen are pretty replaceable. I hold out hope Mantha will put it together, however he looks like your typical first round Red Wing draft pick - a lock to make the NHL but nothing to indicate he is going to be one of the better players in the league.

Ok... let's look at some of these moves.

Mantha + 1st for Myers? Ok... Mantha and Svech are gone... and didn't Buffalo not want this deal and wanted Larkin and something else? So, to get Myers, you're giving up D-Boss and a pick, not Mantha.

Howard traded? You're not clearing all 5.3M of his cap hit, not with how he's played. So you're either getting a bad contract in return or you're retaining 1.5-2.65M on it.

Again with Abby. You're not clearing all 4.2M of his cap hit. You're taking back salary in some way... or using some or all of those savings for his replacement.

Helm? Yeah, you could deal him. You have a better replacement on the roster already in Athanasiou and you could take the hit. However, is Helm at 3M really worth a whole lot to another team? What is a realistic return? A third round pick? I'd rather have Helm for a playoff push and playoff run than a low percentage chance that we will get something that is anything more than he already is... which we won't know until about three years down the line. However, you could make this deal and it could be a good, forward thinking move.

Smith? Again, we get into reasonable value of the return. Smith is, at worst, a top 4D who is a gamer come playoff time that you're paying 2.75M. He also still has potential to develop. Why are you so quick to throw a player like him into the trash... when again, if you're going to upgrade on him, it will cost money/assets when you should be looking to upgrade/replace a guy like Ericsson who is a bottom pairing guy getting paid more than Smith.

And yes. That roster is a good deal worse than what they are icing today. The fourth line is scary and the third line is Athanasiou and two tissue paper soft wingers with no size whatsoever. Also, if you have one or two injuries (which kinda looks to be a certainty with that roster because you have NO effective size whatsoever outside of Myers), you are boned because you have ZERO depth. And if you want to say "oh, you'd have 19M to play with..." you'd just complain about the players that they brought in having crap for value.

You are being short sighted in your team planning, because one or two injuries would wreck that team. When you are playing with a 35 year old with a long injury history, a 37 year old with a long injury history, and a 34 year old who just this season had his knee scoped as a few of your best players, you need to plan that injuries will happen.

Perfect world where everyone is healthy? You can get away with that roster even though that bottom 6 scares the everloving **** out of me. This world, where you know Datsyuk and Zetterberg will be out with injuries or ineffective because of nagging injuries from overuse, no way that roster works.

TL;DR - Your projected roster makes too many assumptions about health and about tradeability of assets to be argued as a better alternative to what the Wings are doing now.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Richards wont be back this season unless he wants to take a similar contract that he signed for with Chicago.

And how are you going to use a compliance buy out on Franzen unless the salary cap drops big time and they plan on giving a couple out again.

Mantha+Detroit's 2106 1st for Myers Yeah no thanks, We're talking about Mr Conservative Ken Holland here no way he would ever do that.

And if you think that we're going to be able to unload on Howard's $5.3M contract without taking on another bad contract you're only fooling yourself wont happen.

And you can't be serious about Abdelkader no way does he get moved, And putting Sheahan in his spot is pretty bad in what world as we see now. Will Sheahan even come close to putting up at least 40+ points like Abdelkader can. Holland isn't moving him.

You've us trading Abdelkader, Helm and Smith for what? Picks what're we moving them for. First off if we moved Abdelkader it wouldn't be for picks but a similar player in return and Holland isn't going to move both Helm and Smith now for picks when he could've done that at the trade deadline not at the draft.

So you going to pay Ericsson $4.25M for the next 4 years to sit in the pressbox yeah good luck with that. If you're going to use a compliance buy out it should be used on either Howard or Ericsson not Franzen who could be put on LTIR for the next 4 years and not cost us any thing.

Your $19M-$20M isn't realistic Howard wont get moved without another bad contract coming our way. And Abdelkader wont get moved unless another similar player is coming back Holland's not trading him for picks that's not realistic same could be said about Helm and Smith if either get moved it's going to be most likely for an upgrade on D

Not sure that the lineup you've here is any better then what we've now, Mantha would be a nice upgrade in the top 6 in the near future and trading him for Myers not sure how that's a good upgrade on D Looks good on paper but don't see how any of your moves are realistic. Helm will be aloud to walk this summer that's about it along with Richards and pretty sure according to Blashill unless we make an major upgrade on D like a Vatanen, Trouba or Shattenkirk that Ouellet will be on the team next season.

All and all i don't see this as an improvement. No way will Sheahan be on the top line over Abdelkader. And doesn't Abdelkader have a NTC no way does he waive it his first years into a new deal nor would Holland ask him to.

One real quick thing... you can't CBO a guy now. Those expired after 2013-2014. It was a use it or lose it proposition.