Speculation: Armchair GM Thread: I can't believe it's not butter, I can't believe we didn't get Ryan Hartman.

[DFF]

Remember when I suggested trading Bennett for Braden Schenn and people **** all over the idea.... good times.

How about the time you said this is a good team and people were idiots for complaining about the scoring in the pre-season?

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I don't know why people keep *****ing about the Iginla trade, our hands were tied and he was a pending UFA. A 1st and a couple prospects is really not a poor trade. Sure the pieces never worked out, but they rarely do when you are trading a pending UFA.

I also don't think the Bouwmeester trade is bad enough to make the list.

And the Regehr trade definitely wasn't bad enough to make the list. We paid to dump Kotalik's abortion of a contract and saved over 5 million in cap space.

The 3 deals @Lazar Beams mentioned IMO belong on that list before those 3.

Not to say that those trades belong on the top 7 worst trades list, but here's my perspective on why they're bad:

Iginla: The quantity vs quality issue. A 1st round pick is a good start, but then getting 2 C level prospects from each team is absolutley brutal. Iginla was getting up there, but with his history and reputation that return should've been better.

JBo: The refusal to retain even a bit of salary for a single season in order to boost his trade value (this I realize is on ownership's shoulders). Also, same quantity vs quality argument as Iggy.

The Regehr trade wasn't bad in a vacuum, especially given that Byron ended up being a pretty good depth player, but it was just the last in a long series of garbage moves (turning a mid-1st into Olli Jokinen into Kotalik into having to give up assets to dump the guy's salary).

 

[lightstorm]

Oh please, would you have been happy had he accepted the 3rd rounder that was on the table as a best offer? Burke doesn’t the market. It was undecided at the time if Cammy would have been brought back or not, had they gotten a better offer than that, he would been traded. They held off on the chance he re-signed because that would trump the value of a 3rd, it was the right move. He was hurt that year and it tanked his value.

Trades is one thing Burke excels at, remember getting a 2nd for Berra?

Burke overplayed his hand and lost an asset for nothing. Which is especially funny since he fired Uncle Feaster for not getting enough for Iginla/Bouw...

in 2014, late 2nd/early 3rd gives you another shot at Montour/ Dvorak / Point (after you wasted your own 2nd on Hunter f..g Smith)

 

[Flames Fanatic]

How about the time you said this is a good team and people were idiots for complaining about the scoring in the pre-season?

I could be wrong (probably am) but are you sure it was the pre-season isn't a big enough sample size to panic?

 

[Fig]

Burke overplayed his hand and lost an asset for nothing. Which is especially funny since he fired Uncle Feaster for not getting enough for Iginla/Bouw...

in 2014, late 2nd/early 3rd gives you another shot at Montour/ Dvorak / Point (after you wasted your own 2nd on Hunter f..g Smith)

Or if Burke is to be believed, he paid the 3rd so that our org could be viewed as an org that doesn't get bent over in trades. I remember he mentioned we had that reputation for being a good club to get value from in trades due to the combined track record of Sutter and Feaster.

 

[Skobel24]

I'd replace Gulutzan if I could only choose one. I think a coach who would properly utilize the defensemen would make up for the lack of offense up front. Even if the Flames added a #1 RW, I don't trust Gulutzan to lead this team.

 

[Fig]

Would anyone target Jake Allen?

I'm thinking a Brouwer/Allen swap if the Blues agree and maybe even add something of value to have them retain around a mil?

 

[DFF]

Would anyone target Jake Allen?

I'm thinking a Brouwer/Allen swap if the Blues agree and maybe even add something of value to have them retain around a mil?

He is worse than Elliott

 

[Lunatik]

Burke overplayed his hand and lost an asset for nothing. Which is especially funny since he fired Uncle Feaster for not getting enough for Iginla/Bouw...

in 2014, late 2nd/early 3rd gives you another shot at Montour/ Dvorak / Point (after you wasted your own 2nd on Hunter f..g Smith)

Are you f***ing kidding me? You're hate for Burke has reached levels where you just spout whatever garbage you think sounds good eh? It's well documented that the market that year was saturated in wingers and that 1 particular winger being moved held up everything.

 

[Kahvi]

So hypothetically and generally speaking, if Treliving was to change ONE thing in the off season, what change would everyone prefer to see:

1) Coaching
2) Goaltending
3) Changes to the forward group
4) Changes to the defensive group
5) None needed, pray for a Devils/Avalanche/Jets turnaround

Personally, while I think coaching has been BRUTAL all year and the starting point to our problems, I think they can learn from mistakes and adapt their systems. I think the forward group needs changes above all else. The defensive group massively underplayed their potential so a return to norm shouldn't be out of the question. We're quite obviously missing something on the offensive side.

I'll even make a list and put them in order. I'll interpret changes as new players coming through trades and FA signings, and not prospects graduating.

1. Coaching. This team could be a lot better with a different coach.
2. Changes to forward group. That 1st line RW would be nice, and then Ferland could play in 3rd (with Bennett and Jankowski, maybe).
3. Goaltending. Smith has been fine, but if Flames could get young(ish) goaltender and have 1A/1B next year, Smith would have more times to rest and less injuries. The season after, the acquired goalie would become #1.
4. I think the D has been fine. Some changes may come next year (Andersson) from within the organisation.
5. It's obvious something needs to be done, so staying put is the last option.

 

[lightstorm]

Or if Burke is to be believed, he paid the 3rd so that our org could be viewed as an org that doesn't get bent over in trades. I remember he mentioned we had that reputation for being a good club to get value from in trades due to the combined track record of Sutter and Feaster.

Whew, good thing they didn't get bend over in the Hamonic or Lazar trades then. Burke sure showed the league who's the boss.

 

[lightstorm]

Are you ****ing kidding me? You're hate for Burke has reached levels where you just spout whatever garbage you think sounds good eh? It's well documented that the market that year was saturated in wingers and that 1 particular winger being moved held up everything.

Give me a break, nothing but excuses and garbage from you.

So what if the market was saturated? A bunch of wingers still got moved, Edmonton got 3rd and 5th for Hemsky and his 9 goals. Gaborik returned Frattin and a conditional 2nd while playing like 20 games that season. Marcel freakin Goc returned a 3rd and a 5th. Same with Brandon Pirri.

Burke got ZILCH for Cammy and then botched the Hunter Smith pick.

 

[Body Checker]

I think Brodie is as good as gone. Lots of one for one swap scenarios (Hoffman, Palmieri, etc.) or a late round first and a prospect (Toronto 1st and Kapanen).

Brodie's value will increase once some teams with higher hopes flame out in the 1st or 2nd round.

 

[Anglesmith]

And how about when Burke failed to get anything for Cammalleri after his 26 goals in 63 games season and let him walk?

Some top notch GMing right there...

Well, that's pretty disingenuous. After his 26 goals in 63 games, he was a free agent with no trade value anyway. But at the deadline, he was in the midst of having a horrendous year, and the best offer Burke got for him was a 3rd. Cammalleri turned it on after the deadline, predictably.

But basically Burke sacrificed a 3rd-rounder in order to set a precedent that he wouldn't sell low. Not exactly a franchise-altering decision one way or another.

 

[Lunatik]

Give me a break, nothing but excuses and garbage from you.

So what if the market was saturated? A bunch of wingers still got moved, Edmonton got 3rd and 5th for Hemsky and his 9 goals. Gaborik returned Frattin and a conditional 2nd while playing like 20 games that season. Marcel freakin Goc returned a 3rd and a 5th. Same with Brandon Pirri.

Burke got ZILCH for Cammy and then botched the Hunter Smith pick.

So we missed out on a 3rd round pick? Who gives a f***? If you need to complain about a 3rd round pick and a 2nd that didn't work out, you are simply looking for reasons to hate him. Your obsession with Burke is downright pathetic.

 

[lightstorm]

Bleeding picks left and right, who gives a **** right?

Your blind homerism is unworthy of any further discussion and frankly tiresome.

 

[Tkachuky]

Trade Brodie, Stone - Sign Karlsson and promote Andersson to NHL.

Sign someone like Neal.

Get a new coach.

Fix the PP... Utilize our Defense for scoring.

Didn't look at salary cap... I think with 10M cap space and trading Brodie/Stone for picks that would be enough space for Karlsson and Neal?

Thoughts? (i know neither might want to sign here, but just an idea)

 

[Turning Mangiapanese]

Smith is closer to 45 than 25. We need a backup who can be a starter because Smith is all but guaranteed to miss a lot of time to injury. He’s always be injury prone and getting older wont help that.
I didnt like the signing because his inuries were going to give us issues, which they have. Sure he saved us from being a bottom 5 team, but we should have signed a goalie to do that who isnt expected to get injured every year.

I dont' really disagree with any of this, and I'm pretty sure we'll have to take another round in the goalie carousel in the 2019 offseason regardless. It's just about priorities, and since our season was just tanked by a horrible lack of scoring (and coaching) so that would be my #1 target.

 

[viper0220]

If we want to contend than we need a good 2nd line(in a ideal world, the Monahan line is the first line, we get another good young center and that become the second and this pushes Backlund to the 3rd line.) I don't think getting a top 6 RW will fix many problems, we will still be a one line team.

Johnny-Monahan-?
Tkachuk-New Center-?
?-Backlund-Frolik

This offseason will be very important because our young players are entering their prime and we don't want to waste that.

Questions that we need to answer:

Can we contend for the Stanley Cup with Sean Monahan as the #1 Center?

What can Dougie Hamilton get in a trade, can we get another good D man and another significant piece for him?(OEL and another significant piece from the Coyotes, where this sloves two problems.) I am not saying trade him but look what is out there.

Is our Centre depth good enough to become Stanley Cup Contenders?

What new coach is the best fit for this team? GG has to go.

What to do with TJ Brodie and Sam Bennett?

Where does the depth come from to fix the bottom six?

What is the goaltending situation next year?

What prospects are ready? And how do we make space for them?

"Francis: Flames GM Treliving breaks silence with emotional questions."

Francis: Flames GM Treliving breaks silence with emotional questions

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Your blind homerism is unworthy of any further discussion and frankly tiresome.

Funny as that's a good summary of what a lot of us think about your posts.

Also way to ignore that we had way more picks than ever in the years leading up to this draft. All those picks Treliving picked up even in years that traditionally you wouldn't sell.

But that doesn't fit your narrative so you'll ignore that.

 

[CamPopplestone]

I have no problem not trading Cammalleri. A mid to late third isn't really that much, especially for, at the time, a top 6 player. A chance to bring him back, showing we wouldn't be taken advantage of in trades, and showing to potential free agents and players we would not just move them constantly for pennies on the dollar was worth not getting that third in my opinion. If we get a second, hell yeah move him. But remember it's a mid to late pick, because it's going to be a playoff team acquiring the rental at the deadline.

I don't blame him for the Iginla deal. He should have been moved at least a year prior, but I doubt prior to 2012-2013, that ownership would have entertained the idea of trading the face of the franchise

The Bouwmeester deal is the one I dislike. For that return, I don't even bother moving him. I think we could have done better at the draft, when interested teams could move things around and fit him in better.

 

[Body Checker]

Brouwer will be very tough to move but with some retention, taking some salary back and including a prospect a deal could be there. I was looking at Vegas's forward depth chart and I think they need to add to it. I think they will only sign one of Neal or Perron and the other will walk.

Brouwer (Flames retain $1.5 mil), Klimchuk to Vegas for Jon Merrill.

Addition by subtraction.

 

[The Gnome]

Coaching is the first priority by a mile. Not only is it the easiest thing to change and access, it doesn't cost us an asset who may perform better under a different coaching staff (ex. Brodie). Everyone is kidding themselves if they think the flames should have a higher priority. Next is to fix our scoring depth by signing a FA top 6 player who can snipe goals, and a complete revamp of our bottom six. Part of that is not re-signing Stajan, and paying Brouwer to not play for us.

It basically works out like this, with variations based on preference, but my take is:

Tkachuk-Monahan-Gaudreau
Bennett-Backlund-(FA signing)
Ferland-Janko-Frolik
XXX-XXX-XXX

As a side note, I have no issue with packaging Frolik to land a top 9 RWer who can actually shoot right...Someone like Charlie Coyle. But basically land a big name FA and fill in the XXXs. If you have a chance at Tavares, go for it, but I'm being realistic.

An experienced backup may be needed, but that's at the bottom of our list of issues imo.

 

[viper0220]

Coaching is the first priority by a mile. Not only is it the easiest thing to change and access, it doesn't cost us an asset who may perform better under a different coaching staff (ex. Brodie). Everyone is kidding themselves if they think the flames should have a higher priority. Next is to fix our scoring depth by signing a FA top 6 player who can snipe goals, and a complete revamp of our bottom six. Part of that is not re-signing Stajan, and paying Brouwer to not play for us.

It basically works out like this, with variations based on preference, but my take is:

Tkachuk-Monahan-Gaudreau
Bennett-Backlund-(FA signing)
Ferland-Janko-Frolik
XXX-XXX-XXX

As a side note, I have no issue with packaging Frolik to land a top 9 RWer who can actually shoot right...Someone like Charlie Coyle. But basically land a big name FA and fill in the XXXs. If you have a chance at Tavares, go for it, but I'm being realistic.

An experienced backup may be needed, but that's at the bottom of our list of issues imo.

That lineup will have the same trouble as this year, it will be a one line team. Unless that FA signing is a major one, than we are in trouble. Bennet needs good line mates(he really has not shown much, right now he is a 30-40 point player and you need more on the second) and there is a chance that Backlund never hits 50 points.

 

[The Gnome]

That lineup will have the same trouble as this year, it will be a one line team. Unless that FA signing is a major one, than we are in trouble. Bennet needs good line mates(he really has not shown much, right now he is a 30-40 point player and you need more on the second) and there is a chance that Backlund never hits 50 points.

If you have better ideas, shoot them. Otherwise my goal is to add to our forwards without disruption to the core. You also are making a vacuum assumption that young players like Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Janko, and to a lesser degree Ferland, will not be taking any steps forward. I mean yes, there is a risk that doesn't happen, but I'd say it's a greater risk to disrupt the quality talent we already have in place. I'm all for upgrading Bennett in a package if we get a quality top 6 winger that checks off all the boxes, but his value may not offer us that luxury at this point.

Tkachuk-Monahan-Gaudreau
Not that you were arguing this, but that is a serious top line imo.

Bennett-Backlund-(FA signing)
Imagine placing James Neal in that slot, Bennett has two quality line mates to run with and I imagine he can improve his offensive numbers quite a bit.

Ferland-Janko-Frolik
That is a massive upgrade to our current 3rd line plugs, Frolik is an ideal 3rd liner, same goes for Ferland. Janko should improve with another offseason of training.

XXX-XXX-XXX
We may be able to fill 1-2 of these internally, maybe Shore is a decent option as well. At the end of the day, I can't imagine it's too hard to upgrade on one of the league's most ineffective 4th lines.

Sum all that up and it leads to improvement. Bring in a quality coaching staff and I'm betting this forward group can help us make a decent run in the playoffs. Again, I believe our biggest issue is coaching, that alone will have a massive impact. In addition, make some upgrades to our forward group, and this team should be in much better shape. I'm still one of the fans that wants to be somewhat patient with our roster, try a new coach first. Unless you want to trade one of Gaudreau, Monohan, Tkachuk, Hamilton, or Gio, I'm not sure how you land a massive talent. Even then, subtract any of the players mentioned, does that equate to an upgrade? Who knows I guess. Maybe BT will take the deep dive into massive core changes and we come out of it in way better shape, I just don't see that as the best option.