Speculation: Armchair GM Thread - 2020-2021 II

Status
Not open for further replies.

Body Checker

Registered User
Aug 11, 2005
3,429
1,081
Treliving seems to just go in a vicious circle of never having a complete roster built to contend -

1. Let's cut the rebuild short by bringing in a franchise defenceman - Hamilton. That should work.
2. Okay maybe not but just wait, another top dman, Hamonic!
3. Ooops can't score to save our life - Neal!
4. Oooo 2nd best team in NHL, we're close.
5. Umm hmm Colorado really did us in, Neal is a jerk, let's cut Smith loose as well, divided room, Lucic will protect our guys.
6. Okay Talbot/Rittich aren't cutting it, time to really address the goaltending - a star goalie - Markstrom! That really is the answer.
7. Oh boy, can't score, room seems divided, no depth up front, guess goaltending wasn't it, hey just wait, it's the coaching.....Daryl!?!? Yeah come on down
8. Okay not the coaching, still no depth up front, still a divided room and the goaltending is now trending downwards. Can I call a friend?
 

User1996

Registered User
Jun 24, 2020
2,920
1,781
Sell the premise of a new arena being when we'll be back to being relevant.

You know, I do some of these things as part of my business. When things need to get shutdown or you need to make a change, make it known to your fans, and make it worth their while.

2021: Who cares, Everyone's home anyway, we won't see live hockey in Canada this year. Send out a note from the ownership group acknowledging that the product on ice does not meet the standards of Calgary, and the greatest fans on the earth. We are committed to building something this city deserves. A world class team for a world class organization and city.

2022: Do a bunch of fan events, fan things to just get people in. Sell the "be part of the change" campaign. Celebrate every single even on the calendar like it's going out of style. Do more ticket contests, people are going to be so hungry to see live hockey, it won't matter what you put on ice. Especially on your booth sales, sell the hell out of those with more value based promotions.

2023: With 2020/2021 like a fuzzy, distant memory no one wants to remember, your team has:
#1 centre you drafted in 2022 from tanking.
Your picks from 19,20,21 are all going to make the jump to the NHL.
Tkachuk as captain (if you want that).
Hanifin in his prime.
Dube, Mangi as prime-time NHLers.
Use it as your growing year.

2024/2025: Your new arena years, you could have the Blackhawks model, where you have a young, really, really good team. In theory you have a team competing for a championship in the new Arena. One long run in the playoffs, most Calgarians will forget their tax dollars went into it.
It 100% makes sense and is workable from a business perspective. People have been trapped in their houses for so long any form of entertainment or travel will be in high demand.

Delay it even another year or two and you’re entering a new building with a team in very lean years and possibly just entering a rebuild.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ace Rimmer

DFF

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
22,332
6,582
If the Sabre wouldnt bite on Eichel,

I'd offer the them Markstrom for Hall and Ulmark. They seem to be desparate for a goalie.

We get a taste of the new guys and can walk away if needed.

Free ourselves of Markstrom long term contract as we do not need him for a rebuild and not sure if he is that great anyway.
 

Mazatt

Registered User
Apr 30, 2019
2,819
2,085
The absolute worst thing Treliving could do is the opposite of the 2015 season. He gained false hope and that led to pursuing Hamilton, Hamonic, Neal, Brouwer, Stone, etc. etc. Turning that to this year, the Flames can't be disillusioned by one shitty year from Tkachuk and decide he is a middle 6 winger they can't win with. They can't see a franchise goalie and say "no, I'll trade him for a rental and a worse goalie".

Rebuilding/re-tooling is very, very enticing looking at some of the proposed rosters here, but the talk of Tkachuk being less than he currently is valued at is cheesing. We are turning around on how 2015 set the franchise back with the undue expectations of contention, we can't turn a blind eye to the opposite happening with a player like Tkachuk in a shortened season.
 

Fig

Absolute Horse Shirt
Dec 15, 2014
13,006
8,466
So you lose trades to get a better 2021 pick and the Flames try to stack Seattle by making other teams expose better players than trey traded for and screw over Edmonton? I am confused by what you want to do unless you think the Canadian division lasts past this season. If the other teams get our good players for cheap, they can just expose them without much of a worry.

To clarify, my hope is that this isn't plan A. But Treliving is a bit of a contrarian at times and can extract good value that way. He has no issues trading interconference if the price is the best and he has no issues with RFA negotiations which many other GMs hate. By moving towards those types of assets, he can often extract a bit better value in those types of trades.

Before this idea goes through, IMO I'd be aiming for a quantity for quality trade (ie: Eichel etc.). If that isn't happening and we aren't expecting great things from this roster anyways and need to reset, do it early and try and take advantage of unique circumstances price wise etc. for the 2021-2022 seasons/ED/UFA etc.

Another facet that I've noticed lately is that with the improvement of our drafting, you guys are going nuts over trading 3rd and 4th round picks. Those are scratch cards! But seriously, Button knows how to use those well with Treliving's mandate. The concept of those trades were usually something for nothing and basically a sort of moneyball for NHL games played.

ie: Kanzig for Lack; Lack for Prout; Sieloff for Chiasson; Knight for Shore.

In reverse to address log jams...

ie: Baertschi for pick; Granlund for Shink

The idea isn't to take a loss for the sake of taking a loss. It's 2-3 steps back for 2.5+ steps or more forward. It's aiming to move certain pieces first and then hope to recoup more assets later on to end up with more value than when we started. Kinda like obliterating the team to look kinda like Ottawa/Vancouver, some teams may have no issues trading us a Schmidt for a 3rd situation because they aren't scared of us. But with the roster we have currently, they won't make such trades with us.

Trading within Canada has its advantages right now and that advantage is temporary. If Treliving can extract extra value that way via expediting talent to current Canadian rosters, that might be very valuable, especially if he targets 2022 or 2023 draft picks that may become more valuable once things get back to normal. Trading to teams like Montreal, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa is also temporarily trading in division, but long term, once realignment happens, those guys are out of division.

The risk is that Seattle becomes stronger with better talent exposed to them if we do this, but likely, many teams will prefer to try and deal with each other to reduce that happening. That's where we are one of the weakest teams and teams might do the Schmidt for a 3rd trade to us rather than watch Seattle come out and contend for the cup in year 1. That's the gamble and that's the real play where we aim to increase our value than what we are sitting on now. Imagine we gut our team and have barely anything in the pipeline remotely close to blue chip and A level prospects (graduate everyone) for the next few seasons. Teams won't worry about us. But if we have a stockpile of currency in the 2022 and 2023 drafts when there's a serious chance of us possibly nabbing some superstar calibre talent in those drafts. Other options might be teams cashing out a good player for cheap to us to sign Hall or Hamilton because we are weak(er) than the average team.

The aim is for us to do something like this:

2021
- Bottom 2-3 in the Canadian division. (We already here)

2022
- Bottom middle pack in the Pacific division

- VGK
- Seattle
- Edmonton
- LA/Calgary/Vancouver
- Sharks/Ducks

2023
- Bubble for Western conference/Cinderella Sutter?

2024+ Contention for 3-5 year window? (Who's the coach?)

The concept is a bigger picture cross linking of concepts that many other posters have contrived. Some are stuck between retool/rebuild and I'm saying because of the Seattle expansion, there might be a unique opportunity where we legit can say, "why not both?" and end up succeeding at both and completely overhaul our roster in a great way, while also restocking our cupboards till they overflow.
 

super6646

Registered User
Apr 16, 2018
17,926
15,812
Calgary
a6db96e8-32d8-496f-bfbe-d6599148336e-e233e041-992a-43ba-9548-176394f07fb9


We were tops at this just 2 yrs ago. WTF happened?!
 

DFF

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
22,332
6,582
The absolute worst thing Treliving could do is the opposite of the 2015 season. He gained false hope and that led to pursuing Hamilton, Hamonic, Neal, Brouwer, Stone, etc. etc. Turning that to this year, the Flames can't be disillusioned by one shitty year from Tkachuk and decide he is a middle 6 winger they can't win with. They can't see a franchise goalie and say "no, I'll trade him for a rental and a worse goalie".

Rebuilding/re-tooling is very, very enticing looking at some of the proposed rosters here, but the talk of Tkachuk being less than he currently is valued at is cheesing. We are turning around on how 2015 set the franchise back with the undue expectations of contention, we can't turn a blind eye to the opposite happening with a player like Tkachuk in a shortened season.

like a losing stock, some time it’s better to cut your loss....and no, I do not see a franchise goalie. I see a good but inconsistent goalie. I see no reason to have when you are doing a rebuild
 

super6646

Registered User
Apr 16, 2018
17,926
15,812
Calgary
like a losing stock, some time it’s better to cut your loss....and no, I do not see a franchise goalie. I see a good but inconsistent goalie. I see no reason to have when you are doing a rebuild

He has a full nmc. No one is taking him rn either even if he didn’t given the cap climate and length of contract.
 

DFF

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
22,332
6,582
He has a full nmc. No one is taking him rn either even if he didn’t given the cap climate and length of contract.

yeah, maybe hard to find a taker the way he is playing

but NMC can be negotiated
 

Fig

Absolute Horse Shirt
Dec 15, 2014
13,006
8,466
The absolute worst thing Treliving could do is the opposite of the 2015 season. He gained false hope and that led to pursuing Hamilton, Hamonic, Neal, Brouwer, Stone, etc. etc. Turning that to this year, the Flames can't be disillusioned by one shitty year from Tkachuk and decide he is a middle 6 winger they can't win with. They can't see a franchise goalie and say "no, I'll trade him for a rental and a worse goalie".

Rebuilding/re-tooling is very, very enticing looking at some of the proposed rosters here, but the talk of Tkachuk being less than he currently is valued at is cheesing. We are turning around on how 2015 set the franchise back with the undue expectations of contention, we can't turn a blind eye to the opposite happening with a player like Tkachuk in a shortened season.

You remember what brought us to the 2015 draft trades, right? With a roster worse than the current Senators, there was a literal playoff mandate. The 2015 moves were an extension of that. Treliving and Co were expecting to draft Chabot, but traded it for Dougie instead. In theory, it was a similar dman but further developed to accelerate the rebuild.

To be fair, the 2015 run breathed new air into rejuvenating Flames fandom. We could have built on it, but instead bad habits seeped in.
 

DomBarr

Registered User
Apr 7, 2014
2,761
903
You remember what brought us to the 2015 draft trades, right? With a roster worse than the current Senators, there was a literal playoff mandate. The 2015 moves were an extension of that. Treliving and Co were expecting to draft Chabot, but traded it for Dougie instead. In theory, it was a similar dman but further developed to accelerate the rebuild.

To be fair, the 2015 run breathed new air into rejuvenating Flames fandom. We could have built on it, but instead bad habits seeped in.
That 2014/15 fluke playoff berth and run was a killer.
We lucked into the playoffs but it wreaked havoc on roster development
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bounces R Way

Ace Rimmer

Stoke me a clipper.
Trading for Dougie Hamilton wasn't the mistake. The mistake was not deploying him as a true top pair defenseman (hell even top four), which was probably a major factor in Fox not wanting to sign here. Keep Hamilton, use him better, and maybe Fox wants to stay? Then we have a D corps today that (all things being equal) looks like:

Tanev - Hamilton
Giordano - Fox
Valimaki - Andersson

(I read that back and got irrationally angry lol)

Hamonic on the other hand was already in a significant decline and not worth what was paid. Use those picks to get a Lindholm or equivalent.
 

DFF

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
22,332
6,582
The original deal was not as good as people thought with barzal, Connor and others still there. Even the 2 second rounds might have returned somebody good

the second deal was fine, mainly because Hamilton wanted to leave and fox never wanted to sign
 

User1996

Registered User
Jun 24, 2020
2,920
1,781
Can’t criticize bringing in an age appropriate D who puts up 40-50 points when healthy. One could argue that’s a pretty big hole on the Flames currently that Dougie would fill. Would probably do a trade like that over again if it were for a top end, young RW for picks.
 

Mobiandi

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
21,158
17,651
Boston seeming eager to get rid of Hamilton should have been a red flag. I remember the fan rationale being that there was a lower chance of the picks we sent panning out into someone of Hamilton's calibre. I guess that was proven right because of Boston's awful draft but imagine if we had Chabot taking the reins from Gio this season

Also the Canes leaned on Hamilton hard and Fox still didn't want to sign with Carolina
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,089
12,869
59.6097709,16.5425901
Trading for Dougie Hamilton wasn't the mistake. The mistake was not deploying him as a true top pair defenseman (hell even top four), which was probably a major factor in Fox not wanting to sign here. Keep Hamilton, use him better, and maybe Fox wants to stay? Then we have a D corps today that (all things being equal) looks like:

Tanev - Hamilton
Giordano - Fox
Valimaki - Andersson

(I read that back and got irrationally angry lol)

Hamonic on the other hand was already in a significant decline and not worth what was paid. Use those picks to get a Lindholm or equivalent.

Pain.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad