Arizona Coyotes Lounge IX

[Bonsai Tree]

We can't get enough qualified engineers, etc from our colleges. A degree should mean something and we shouldn't have to actively recruit Singapore and India. It's shameful the way colleges have "dumbed down". That trend would only continue if we offered BA's from open enrollment community colleges. Our problem isn't as much that college is so bloody expensive, its that we've dumbed down admission criteria in all but the prestige schools.

 

[BlazingBlueAnt]

We can't get enough qualified engineers, etc from our colleges. A degree should mean something and we shouldn't have to actively recruit Singapore and India. It's shameful the way colleges have "dumbed down". That trend would only continue if we offered BA's from open enrollment community colleges. Our problem isn't as much that college is so bloody expensive, its that we've dumbed down admission criteria in all but the prestige schools.

We need to get better at teaching math at young ages. People learn to hate it by the time they get to highschool which turns them away from a lot of STEM fields.

 

[KG]

The STEM problem is a different from the college degree problem. The STEM problem starts in elementary/middle/high school.

 

[Mosby]

"Arizona Coyotes" is one of the 10 trending topic things on Facebook. Cool.

 

[MP]

The STEM problem is a different from the college degree problem. The STEM problem starts in elementary/middle/high school.

Agreed. By the time you get to college, you've already been conditioned to fear STEM classes, and you expect to struggle with the few intro courses everybody has to take. Heck, I felt that way when I started high school.

There were always things I could have changed about myself--Lifestyle Adjustments, if you will. But math seems a lot like language acquisition: if you aren't immersed in the subject at the earliest possible age, it only gets harder to master it as the years go by.

 

[KG]

I have a friend who's getting a phd in math and he says the following about math at an early age

1. Schools tend to teach procedure instead of theory. Rote memorization of how to do a problem doesn't produce conceptual understanding, and therefore each level of math becomes harder as a result.
2. At some point, every kid who doesn't do well with math entered a math class they weren't prepared for. Since we have standardized education, they have to slog through it and learn to hate it, because it's too difficult.

 

[Bondurant]

I took second place in my Yahoo fantasy league. The final week ended 5-5. My opponent was declared champion due to his superior overall record. I was hurt immensely yesterday when at least 4 on my squad were benched for playoff resting.

Second place share came out to $24. I made $4. That's something, at least.

 

[XX]

I have a friend who's getting a phd in math and he says the following about math at an early age

1. Schools tend to teach procedure instead of theory. Rote memorization of how to do a problem doesn't produce conceptual understanding, and therefore each level of math becomes harder as a result.

2. At some point, every kid who doesn't do well with math entered a math class they weren't prepared for. Since we have standardized education, they have to slog through it and learn to hate it, because it's too difficult.

See common core and the "make ten" ********, where kids get marked off, even if they get the correct answer, because they didn't follow procedure.

2 happened to me. I was in the good track (tracks are still a thing in American public schools, shameful), so I got the best teachers and the most advanced classes through grade and middle school. Then my family moved, changed districts, and that was no longer the case. My interest in science and math dropped immediately. The teachers just weren't very good. Every new class it seemed like the previous teacher had forgotten to cover something that the new teacher expected. Just a mess.

They need to figure out how to move away from standardization and more into competency based education.

 

[Summer Rose]

A player got mad at me for calling a textbook head contact penalty with 1 minute left in a tied game because the other team scored on the power play and ended up winning 4-2 on another goal with 19 seconds left. This same team put the puck in their own net when the puck trickled through the goalie, stopped on the goal line, I shouted "NO" and gave the washout signal, and everyone stopped playing. After a second or so the defenseman tried to play the puck off the line and knocked it across the line.

Oh, hockey players...

 

[MP]

My interest in science and math dropped immediately.

Same here, kind of. When I started 6th grade, I was a huge Trek nerd and I'd read umpteen books about astronomy. I remember the first time I read about stuff like the Mariner, Pioneer and Voyager programs: I was totally blown away. I wanted more. And then middle school took that nascent interest and drowned it in the bath tub.

Now, I'm not saying I was brilliant and destined for greatness if not for The System, but I do sympathize with those who feel like they've been let down.

 

[Summer Rose]

Same here, kind of. When I started 6th grade, I was a huge Trek nerd and I'd read umpteen books about astronomy. I remember the first time I read about stuff like the Mariner, Pioneer and Voyager programs: I was totally blown away. I wanted more. And then middle school took that nascent interest and drowned it in the bath tub.

Now, I'm not saying I was brilliant and destined for greatness if not for The System, but I do sympathize with those who feel like they've been let down.

Same and then eventually the opposite happened to me. I stopped caring about math and science when I was about 14. Now I'm 28 and very re-interested in it. Well, astrophysics and mathematical theory, at least. Still not really one for biology.

 

[SweYote]

The only way tuition is going to drop and drop a lot is if the demand for college goes down. There is 1 way for that to happen and that is to either do away with students loans or have a major student loan reform where it's harder to get and harder to maintain while in school.

It's not the only way though. The demand for college educations can also go down if you are able to get to the employers position where they are generally able to demand unreasonable overqualifications for jobs because the demand for their positions are high. If you're able to reduce unemployment drastically they don't have that leverage anymore and there's no need for people wasting time and money to abtain skills irrelevant to their future careers. Now how you reduce unemployment and how much the demand for college actually affects tuition fees are different stories...

 

[XX]

It's not the only way though. The demand for college educations can also go down if you are able to get to the employers position where they are generally able to demand unreasonable overqualifications for jobs because the demand for their positions are high. If you're able to reduce unemployment drastically they don't have that leverage anymore and there's no need for people wasting time and money to abtain skills irrelevant to their future careers. Now how you reduce unemployment and how much the demand for college actually affects tuition fees are different stories...

The recession forced a lot of overqualified people to flood the market. I see constant headlines of how there's a predicted shortage of U.S. college graduates within the next 10-20 years but that's not really reflected in the labor market at all.

The rush to college is part easy money (loans) and part demand because the well paying jobs that involved minimal schooling dried up in the United States. There's no real downward pressure on universities because most states do not offer any sort of decent alternative (city colleges are almost always 2 years max) and employers still prefer a 4 year from a reputable institution. It's possible to have a bunch of relevant IT certifications and experience, but not get hired because you don't have a 4 year degree, even if you can run circles around others.

 

[KG]

Haha yeah, it's easy money until those payments start 6mo after college. Better have a good job by then, or you're scraping by or living with the parents again.

 

[XX]

Haha yeah, it's easy money until those payments start 6mo after college. Better have a good job by then, or you're scraping by or living with the parents again.

It can be 6 months from when you drop below half time. Have a family emergency or otherwise have your studies interrupted? Can't afford it? Work conflict? Grace period starts ticking, even if you haven't graduated. Student loans also stick with you in a big way. A lot of kids don't know what they are signing up for, and plenty more have no other choice. All in all, it's a pretty ****ed up system. It will pop.

 

[KG]

It can be 6 months from when you drop below half time. Have a family emergency or otherwise have your studies interrupted? Can't afford it? Work conflict? Grace period starts ticking, even if you haven't graduated. Student loans also stick with you in a big way. A lot of kids don't know what they are signing up for, and plenty more have no other choice. All in all, it's a pretty ****ed up system. It will pop.

Yeah, the financial ramifications stick with you for awhile, and takes some time to pay back even if you make it a number 1 priority. And the $36,000 average debt number can be misleading, because for a 4 year degree not living at home, it can be up to 80,000 for 4 years. 45,000 if you're living at home. I assume the 35k number comes from all the people that started and never finish.

 

[SweYote]

The recession forced a lot of overqualified people to flood the market. I see constant headlines of how there's a predicted shortage of U.S. college graduates within the next 10-20 years but that's not really reflected in the labor market at all.

The rush to college is part easy money (loans) and part demand because the well paying jobs that involved minimal schooling dried up in the United States. There's no real downward pressure on universities because most states do not offer any sort of decent alternative (city colleges are almost always 2 years max) and employers still prefer a 4 year from a reputable institution. It's possible to have a bunch of relevant IT certifications and experience, but not get hired because you don't have a 4 year degree, even if you can run circles around others.

You're right if you're trying to say I don't know the specifics of the U.S. economy because I don't. I don't believe anything I said contradicts what you are bringing up, on the contrary I think it reinforces it, but thank you for the background stories. There's no doubt the recession made things a lot worse, especially in the U.S., but the problem of unemployment causing people to get overqualified is larger than being tied to a single recession.

 

[Sinurgy]

We can't get enough qualified engineers, etc from our colleges. A degree should mean something and we shouldn't have to actively recruit Singapore and India. It's shameful the way colleges have "dumbed down". That trend would only continue if we offered BA's from open enrollment community colleges. Our problem isn't as much that college is so bloody expensive, its that we've dumbed down admission criteria in all but the prestige schools.

That's because not enough people are going into engineering (probably because it's very difficult, which it should be), not because the requirements are too relaxed.

 

[Sinurgy]

I'm currently working on homework for my discrete mathematics class so this STEM discussion is very timely. haha

 

[Sinurgy]

It's possible to have a bunch of relevant IT certifications and experience, but not get hired because you don't have a 4 year degree, even if you can run circles around others.

It's possible but very unlikely. If you have experience and can run circles around others, you can definitely get a job in IT. IT is a fairly unique field in that it's relatively high paying yet demonstrable skills will almost always trump degrees. I've interviewed people in the past and I can tell you that their education, certificates, etc. basically didn't matter at all.

 

[huhwhtfkr]

Education isn't about educating, its about money ,simple as that. But then again most things are

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

College is not for everyone and community college has done way more to better the lives of many everyday individuals than university or high school. Plenty of community colleges students have learn a lot more reliable information at a 2 year school than in High School and plenty of students who get an Associates Degree or Certification(s) have gain employment with pretty good pay or better. Yet, despite what community colleges have done, they're referred to often as a pretend university or a continuation of high school.

 

[CC96]

I probably saved well over $10,000 by taking my first 60-some credits at Community College.

 

[Sinurgy]

Education is about educating, its about money ,simple as that. But then again most things are

Huh?

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Education is about educating

This is often forgotten by many of those who head to college for the purpose of getting a job. While certain fields to work in require college, at the same time these schools weren't designed to train people to work but rather to educate people.

If someone wanted to be trained for work now and to get to the next level, that's what minimum wage jobs in particular are supposed to be for. Needless to say minimum wage jobs have failed miserably in that area seeing that plenty of workers are still stuck working 2 or 3 of these jobs to get by. Only a small handful get a chance to move up and many of those people aren't truly qualified for an upper position got the position because of favoritism. It also doesn't help either that plenty of children don't start working until their mid or late teens(and some even later than that) and by then many of those kids are going to treat work more like a hang out rather than a business.

So along with more and more young kids need to learn math they also need to learn about business at a very young age. Perhaps we need to re-visit the current child labor laws on the books? The fictional character Ron Swanson seems to think so.