Are you happy with the job Kyle Dubas has done since taking over as GM?

[egd27]

I think we can agree that the logical first move from the Leafs would be to use McDavid as a benchmark. Maybe add a little cap inflation, then take a little off for not being McDavid, iron out the details, voila 12x8. Easy peasy.

Both Moldaver and Jackson (Matthews' and McDavid's agents) are part of the Orr group. They're not going to operate in silo's with the groups flagship clients. The credibility of having someone in the room from the McDavid negotiation saying "No, 12.5x8 isn't McDavid's worth, the Oilers would have given him 13.5 x 8 or 12 x 5 if he wanted it, but Connor is an odd duck" resets things and moves the high water mark. Once you establish that the contract McDavid signed doesn't reflect his market worth and that Matthews has no intention of following suit and signing below his market worth the discussion shifts from "comparables" to real market leverage and willingness to pay.

Then for Dubas and Shanny there's three questions.
Do you think they're bluffing? Given rumours of the unhappiness and rift with Babcock likely not.

If they're not bluffing, do you think other teams would be willing to pay that? Of course, the draft pick compensation is a song for a player of his ability"

If other teams will do it, are we best served by getting into a public game of brinksmanship with our franchise player and drive a wedge or should we start working to solidify the relationship and act preemptively

Thanks for the clarification.

It's a reasonable possibility, though I'm more inclined to think they avoided McDavid altogether and focused on getting more than JT.

But who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[4thline]

Thanks for the clarification.

It's a reasonable possibility, though I'm more inclined to think they avoided McDavid altogether and focused on getting more than JT.

But who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

Given the contract that was signed that doesn't add up. There's no logical connection from 11x7 to 11.6 x 5, and "more than 11 x 7" was fait accompli even just looking at the surface value of McDavid and Eichel.

Why would you focus on argument with the least teeth and the worse outcome? It's like taking a job and vehemently insisting that you get the company's standard vacation package rather than leveraging a competing offer.

 

[EGL22]

Lots of conspiracy theories at play here.

I think it's a hard sell for anyone to be happy with the GM to date. The real question is are you confident in the GM going forward?

I think it is about a 50/50 split with Leaf fans on if Dubas has done well or not and probably the same in believing he is the guy going forward.

I also think fans and the GMs of all the other teams plus all the player agents want him to stay a very long time.

 

[egd27]

Given the contract that was signed that doesn't add up. There's no logical connection from 11x7 to 11.6 x 5, and "more than 11 x 7" was fait accompli even just looking at the surface value of McDavid and Eichel.

Why would you focus on argument with the least teeth and the worse outcome? It's like taking a job an vehemently insisting that the you the company's standard vacation package rather than leveraging a competing offer.

Perhaps you have me confused with someone else, I'm not vehemently insisting anything.

I admitted your scenario, was reasonable, but IMO, bringing McDavid into the equation, would make things more difficult given the "discount factor" and the accomplishment gap.

Make me the highest paid Leaf seems like a pretty logical place to start.

Just an opinion

 

[4thline]

Perhaps you have me confused with someone else, I'm not vehemently insisting anything.

I admitted your scenario, was reasonable, but IMO, bringing McDavid into the equation, would make things more difficult given the "discount factor" and the accomplishment gap.

Just an opinion

My apologies, "vehement insistence" was in the context of Matthews. Coming into the room and firmly demanding that he be paid more than Tavares and they better not try and stiff him would be almost humorous given how obvious it was that he'd paid as much or more without mentioning JT. Starting at your bottom and working up is just a weird negotiating play.

JT makes sense for Marner's camp to use as an argument (which I disagree with) but Matthews was on a whole different level of leverage and starting point.

You only bring McDavid up to tear up 12.5 x 8 as a ceiling and switch the conversation over to what he could realistically get in the market.

 

[Dekes For Days]

bringing McDavid into the equation, would make things more difficult given the "discount factor"

Good thing Matthews also fits within his other comparables too then.

 

[hotpaws]

My apologies, "vehement insistence" was in the context of Matthews. Coming into the room and firmly demanding that he be paid more than Tavares and they better not try and stiff him would be almost humorous given how obvious it was that he'd paid as much or more without mentioning JT. Starting at your bottom and working up is just a weird negotiating play.

You only bring McDavid up to tear up 12.5 x 8 as a ceiling and switch the conversation over to what he could realistically get in the market.

so you're throwing out all the market comparable contracts then saying the conversation switched to what could he could get in the market ?

 

[egd27]

Good thing Matthews also fits within his other comparables too then.

and they are?

 

[4thline]

so you're throwing out all the market comparable contracts then saying the conversation switched to what could he could get in the market ?

We've had this discussion. Market the price for a discrete asset is decided by what someone will pay for it, not by what someone else paid for something similar. The comparison informs the willingness, but it does not decide it.

Your neighbour selling their house for less than they could get because they liked the buyer/ they're generous people/ they're morons doesn't bind you to selling yours for less than it's worth if you have a buyer willing to pay more. And if you're the buyer looking at the second house whining that it's not fair, the neighbours house is nicer and sold for x, you should sell me yours for x minus 20 grand- chances are that you're not getting the house.

 

[hotpaws]

We've had this discussion. Market the price for a discrete asset is decided by what someone will pay for it, not by what someone else paid for something similar. The comparison informs the willingness, but it does not decide it.

Your neighbour selling their house for less than they could get because they liked the buyer/ they're generous people/ they're morons doesn't bind you to selling yours for less than it's worth if you have a buyer willing to pay more.

he wasn't a ufa so he couldn't sell himself on the open market

there's a reason he was the landslide winner of a poll of agents and that's due to giving out above market contracts , so spin it any way you want but his incompetence has hurt our teams ability to compete

 

[4thline]

he wasn't a ufa so he couldn't sell himself on the open market

A restricted free agent is still a free agent. Keeping with the real estate analogy it's like a foreign buyers tax.

 

[EGL22]

so you're throwing out all the market comparable contracts then saying the conversation switched to what could he could get in the market ?

The thing I really hate and put me off a bit when it comes to Matthews is they said we don't care what McD got,it is what he should have gotten without a team discount.

That right there says I don't care much about the team or anything else,just me,I want every cent I think I deserve.

Then McD also signs max 8 years and our boy says I think 5 is enough so I have options sooner to make even more either here or elsewhere.

Same goes for Nylander and Marner really as all showed a me first mentality.

Best player in the league on a less talented,on paper,team takes a discount and max years but our big guy and his buds take every cent possible in less years and our GM is okay with all of that because he was scared they may leave via offer sheets.

These tactics were used by every single player agent out there with every single one of the great class of RFA's there have been the last couple of years and yet only ONE GM got sucked in and gave out stupid contracts.

It is not a good look for our players and a terrible look for our GM.

 

[ToneDog]

he wasn't a ufa so he couldn't sell himself on the open market

there's a reason he was the landslide winner of a poll of agents and that's due to giving out above market contracts , so spin it any way you want but his incompetence has hurt our teams ability to compete

What do you call trading Kadri for 1 year of Barrie and Kerfoot and quickly overpaying Kerfoot, who some would be happy to move for a lousy 2nd making the trade Kadri for a 2nd. Yet Shanny stays the course.

 

[Dekes For Days]

and they are?

Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Toews, Kane, Eichel, Kovalchuk, Nash, etc.

I mean, he fits well within pretty much all high-end cap-era post-ELC contracts, so take your pick.

 

[4thline]

The thing I really hate and put me off a bit when it comes to Matthews is they said we don't care what McD got,it is what he should have gotten without a team discount.

That right there says I don't care much about the team or anything else,just me,I want every cent I think I deserve.

It's definitely annoying and puts a bad taste in your mouth.

But showing just a touch or basic empathy it's understandable. If you were damn near the best in your field and were unhappy with your boss and felt underused, would you take less because your happier peers did?

 

[hotpaws]

I care a lot about the team, that's why I'm happy to see that steps were taken to try and keep that decades in the waiting talent from being chased out of town. The odds of us winning at some point in the next 10-15 years are better than in the last 2. I look forward to watching a strong organization ice a team that could win any given year for the next decade. There will be ups and downs, but I don't see the point in losing my shit during the downs.

yup we should win something in the next 60 to 90 years , lol

i used to think eventually somehow we'd to win a cup one of these years like you believe when i was in my 20's and then the decades go by and you realize winning just doesn't magically happen regardless of how much you waive the blue and white pom poms

 

[EGL22]

It's definitely annoying and puts a bad taste in your mouth.

But showing just a touch or basic empathy it's understandable. If you were damn near the best in your field and were unhappy with your boss and felt underused, would you take less because your happier peers did?

I am not sure that McD was happy at that time as he was pissed they lost and knew they needed more help to get to the next level.
He also was not thrilled with the coach.

For me he showed real leadership and a belief in the team to improve by taking less and going to the max years.
If he took every cent for 5 or less everybody would have understood and said well it is Edmonton and he wants out fast if they keep screwing up.

Matthews taking max cash and few years does not sell the longtime Leaf and here to win it all attitude or leadership and also led to Marner's bloated contract.

Their guy shows loyalty and hope and our guy shows more like a mercenary.

If I am an Oiler fan as long as the team does not self destruct I have belief he resigns when the time comes.

As a Leaf fan sadly I really don't expect Matthews to be here when his contract ends because he will test the FA market and leave.

 

[Gabriel426]

Oh, I'd say he's very close to that tier now. I'm just grateful the Leafs have him.

No doubt he is close, and I think next season he will be there. At least that’s the hope.

 

[4thline]

I am not sure that McD was happy at that time as he was pissed they lost and knew they needed more help to get to the next level.
He also was not thrilled with the coach.

For me he showed real leadership and a belief in the team to improve by taking less and going to the max years.
If he took every cent for 5 or less everybody would have understood and said well it is Edmonton and he wants out fast if they keep screwing up.

Matthews taking max cash and few years does not sell the longtime Leaf and here to win it all attitude or leadership and also led to Marner's bloated contract.

Their guy shows loyalty and hope and our guy shows more like a mercenary.

If I am an Oiler fan as long as the team does not self destruct I have belief he resigns when the time comes.

As a Leaf fan sadly I really don't expect Matthews to be here when his contract ends because he will test the FA market and leave.

I don't think his return is a guarantee, but there's three years to change that and I think there's a good chance that things have already come a long way.

But yes, it's disappointing that he didn't approach things the same way as McDavid. That all of them went about things the way they did. Mentally you can't blame them, but emotionally it sucks.

 

[EGL22]

I don't think his return is a guarantee, but there's three years to change that and I think there's a good chance that things have already come a long way.

But yes, it's disappointing that he didn't approach things the same way as McDavid. That all of them went about things the way they did. Mentally you can't blame them, but emotionally it sucks.

I agree,it drains you and does make it a lot harder to like the players even if they are high quality.
It really bugs the hell out of me to see a ton of high end quality players sign in every other city at reasonable contracts and then to see all out guys pull the me,me,me junk.
I still put the main blame on Dubas for giving in but even so the players being so greedy and me first really pisses me off.

 

[ICE FIRE]

I agree,it drains you and does make it a lot harder to like the players even if they are high quality.
It really bugs the hell out of me to see a ton of high end quality players sign in every other city at reasonable contracts and then to see all out guys pull the me,me,me junk.
I still put the main blame on Dubas for giving in but even so the players being so greedy and me first really pisses me off.

This is all on Dubas.
The minute he gave in to everything for Nylander he set himself up to be screwed over by Matthews and Marner.

We are not even an official playoff team and he has to sell off parts already and more to come.
We will still need more defense plus sign Rielly and a goalie and have no cap.

A couple of years ago Toronto was filled with hope that this terrible 50 year jinx would end soon but now we are headed back into the what could have been years we are used to.

 

[Trapper]

This is all on Dubas.
The minute he gave in to everything for Nylander he set himself up to be screwed over by Matthews and Marner.

We are not even an official playoff team and he has to sell off parts already and more to come.
We will still need more defense plus sign Rielly and a goalie and have no cap.

A couple of years ago Toronto was filled with hope that this terrible 50 year jinx would end soon but now we are headed back into the what could have been years we are used to.

It takes a lot more than just drafting 3 guys 2014, 15, 16 and adding a UFA.

The collection needs to have the right stuff (that’s not just skill), you need a sound team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It really bugs the hell out of me to see a ton of high end quality players sign in every other city at reasonable contracts and then to see all out guys pull the me,me,me junk.

Trying to get your true value is not "me, me, me". McDavid voluntarily taking a whole cap hit percentage off the negotiated contract is a super unique occurrence, and definitely isn't the standard, and even then, Matthews' contract aligns well with McDavid's post-discount contract unless the extent of your contract valuation is looking up raw points on NHL.com.

In reality, almost all superstars are underpaid relative to their actual team impact, but relative to other high-end post-ELC contracts, more high-end players have been "overpaid" in the cap era than "underpaid", and Matthews/Marner aren't one of them. They just had unique circumstances with very little PP time relative to other players near their level.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

A couple of years ago Toronto was filled with hope that this terrible 50 year jinx would end soon but now we are headed back into the what could have been years we are used to.

Yes. Yes we are.

We had a chance to craft a team with a true #1C.

It hasnt worked out.

Winning in the parity era is mostly just luck anyway.

Dubas paid out contracts he shouldn't have IMO. He is responsible.

 

[mikeyz]

I'm guessing you don't watch any other teams if you actually believe this so we'll agree to disagree and move on .

I am pretty sure he’s trolling. Lol.