Are you happy with the job Kyle Dubas has done since taking over as GM?

[Racer88]

.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Hello. New poster here. I am trying to vote on the Dubas poll but cannot seem to find the button to cast my vote. What am I doing wrong

I believe voting in polls requires either a certain post count, or your account has to have existed for a certain amount of time.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Who here would like $810,00 dollars?

Know I sure would. In a league were they're trying to make things 'fair' the fact is, a player in Toronto needs a higher salary to offset the higher taxes. So when Dubas is paying Nylander $6 million, the take home is way less playing for Toronto then some other places. $2,816,433

If Nylander plays for one of the teams that has an unfair advantage like Tampa Bay or Dallas, sure he would agree to get paid 'less' - it's the same take-home. If the Leafs paid the same taxes as Cup finalists, instead of $700,000 Marincin, the Leafs can afford a Kevin Shattenkirk, Tyler Meyers, Anton Stralman, etc.

Don't think we should judge Dubas so hard on some of these salaries as much as throw shade on Gary Bettman's rigged hockey league that heavily favors teams that get an extra few quality players compared to other teams.

Not much left that Kyle can be blamed for. Between Lou, Mike and Gary we've got it all covered.

 

[seanlinden]

Please elaborate.

Why can't Leafs match Tampa's bottom 6?

Why can't Leafs find Bogo's and Shattenkirks after getting Rielly a partner?

Why can't Leafs match ELC contracts like Cirelli and Cernak when we have Sandin and Robertson looking like keepers. Sandin's ceiling for impact is higher than Cernaks.

Why can't a guy like Simmonds come in for 900k and have at least Maroon level impact?

Why can't Marner have a huge playoffs next season just like Point rebounded from his 1 point performance that helped his team get swept by the jackets? That's all Tampa did last season. Help the jackets win by looking like ass.

Why can't all 3 of Matthews, Marner and Nylander be even better next season? Leaf players don't get better right? It only happens for other teams in the league apparently. Who cares Nylander became a 30 goal scorer. Fluke. It's not evidence Marner can go back to his usual dominant self just like Nylander found his game.

You won't be able to elaborate. Guaranteed. It'll be some shallow reply based off emotion and not related at all to how Tampa's team came to be over the span of 10 years.



The hot takes on this board suck. You learn absolutely nothing. It's just a bunch of posters salty over young kids making too much money and you're forced to watch them cry about it. Who cares. There's no one on the team who fits the profile of being overpaid and low quality. Our overpaid players are superstars. It's not even plural. Marner is the only overpaid one and it's not even that much. 1.5-2 mil max.

Tampa could have ran an internal budget less than the salary cap and still have won. Just take that in if you ever find yourself in a heated debate over Matthews taking 3% more of the teams cap than his comparable. Definitely need to split this Matthews scrub into multiple assets instead

It's not just the fact that they're overpaid... it's the "culture", or sense of entitlement.

You watch that Stanley Cup Final series -- and it's guys who regardless of skill level, salary, "stature within the team", they battle, they play with desperation. The level of compete between Brayden Point, Yanni Gourde, and Barclay Goodrow was the same.

Outside of Zach Hyman, Jake Muzzin, and maybe Kyle Clifford, the Leafs didn't have anyone who competed like that.

Why do the Bolts compete like that and the Leafs not? To me, it's about experience. Stamkos, Hedman, Johnson, Kucherov, Palat, Killorn, Vasilevsky all watched as the Chicago Blackhawks hoisted the cup 5 years ago. Ryan McDonagh has had a long career as captain of the Rangers, and watched the LA Kings hoist the Stanley Cup the year prior. These guys know that a real shot at a Stanley Cup is rare, and will run though a brick wall if they have to in order to get it.

Brayden Point, Mikhail Sergachev, Anthony Cirelli and Erik Cernak obviously didn't don't have that experience, but there is a strong leadership group for them to look up to. There's a very clear "pecking order" in Tampa Bay -- and a strong culture of "paying your dues".

After basically setting the league on fire last year, all of these guys were embarrassed by the Blue Jackets and learned an even better lesson that hard work trumps skill in the playoffs.

Is anyone on the Leafs "embarrassed" that they were beaten by the Columbus Blue Jackets? Doesn't seem so, there seems to be an overwhelming attitude / approach of "there's always next year", or "we got unlucky and ran into a hot goalie", or "we just didn't get a good matchup".

The "leaders" on the Leafs are Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly. Of those 5, only 1 has ever won a single playoff series -- and that was Tavares 4 years ago. That's not understanding what it takes to win in the playoffs. The element of realizing that your chances are fleeting only really comes when you get to around 30 years old.

To win a Stanley Cup, you've gotta be able to beat a team that's going to solely focus on trapping/stifling you. You've gotta beat a team that's going to try and overwhelm you with skill, and you've gotta be able to beat a team that's going to try and beat the living hell out of you.

 

[EGL22]

the non state tax advantage is just another lame excuse to defend incompetent mgmt

the only non state tax team whose players sign for discounts is Tampa and i'm getting tired of people on this board speaking like their experts in the field and know the actual taxes these players pay

also the Leafs with there huge fan base are one a few teams able to hand out massive front loaded bonuses which not only allows a player to make money off more of there money quicker but also makes the contract buyout/lockout proof yet these advantages we have are ignored so Leaf nation can endlessly play the victim

This is actually more true than the average fan realizes.
I wish I kept the article for reference but a pro tax guy did a full summary of salaries.
Stuff we would not know like players have to pay taxes for games played out of home state/country and taxes if they live away from team state etc etc etc.

Now it is still better to have that except he also laid out the advantages for teams like the Leafs who can pay huge bonuses so the players get the majority of their big pay much faster so they can put in things that protect the cash and get good interest and future gains.

In the end when adding everything up he said players are better off with the huge up front bonus payouts.

So the edge that upsets so many with tax haven states is not as big a factor as some believe it to be and very possibly our ability to pay out big up front money could actually be better.

 

[Menzinger]

It's not just the fact that they're overpaid... it's the "culture", or sense of entitlement.

You watch that Stanley Cup Final series -- and it's guys who regardless of skill level, salary, "stature within the team", they battle, they play with desperation. The level of compete between Brayden Point, Yanni Gourde, and Barclay Goodrow was the same.

Outside of Zach Hyman, Jake Muzzin, and maybe Kyle Clifford, the Leafs didn't have anyone who competed like that.

Why do the Bolts compete like that and the Leafs not? To me, it's about experience. Stamkos, Hedman, Johnson, Kucherov, Palat, Killorn, Vasilevsky all watched as the Chicago Blackhawks hoisted the cup 5 years ago. Ryan McDonagh has had a long career as captain of the Rangers, and watched the LA Kings hoist the Stanley Cup the year prior. These guys know that a real shot at a Stanley Cup is rare, and will run though a brick wall if they have to in order to get it.

Brayden Point, Mikhail Sergachev, Anthony Cirelli and Erik Cernak obviously didn't don't have that experience, but there is a strong leadership group for them to look up to. There's a very clear "pecking order" in Tampa Bay -- and a strong culture of "paying your dues".

After basically setting the league on fire last year, all of these guys were embarrassed by the Blue Jackets and learned an even better lesson that hard work trumps skill in the playoffs.

Is anyone on the Leafs "embarrassed" that they were beaten by the Columbus Blue Jackets? Doesn't seem so, there seems to be an overwhelming attitude / approach of "there's always next year", or "we got unlucky and ran into a hot goalie", or "we just didn't get a good matchup".

The "leaders" on the Leafs are Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly. Of those 5, only 1 has ever won a single playoff series -- and that was Tavares 4 years ago. That's not understanding what it takes to win in the playoffs. The element of realizing that your chances are fleeting only really comes when you get to around 30 years old.

To win a Stanley Cup, you've gotta be able to beat a team that's going to solely focus on trapping/stifling you. You've gotta beat a team that's going to try and overwhelm you with skill, and you've gotta be able to beat a team that's going to try and beat the living hell out of you.

The Jackets core is generally older than thr Leafs guys. Point, the young guy is already 24.

If a team like that can learn from a conplete sweep in a way worse embarassment than anything the Leafs have had in recent years i think its silly to think the Leafs can't.

Matthews two way game has increased immensely since his rookie season, Nylander scores from the front of the net evt. These guys are clearly capable of improving, i think its just pure pessimism to think otherwise

 

[egd27]

They were not. It was useless information for the purposes of our discussion. It was team results from incorrect time-frames, and raw production from incorrect time-frames, both without even the most basic context, even games played. That is not proper player evaluation for the purposes of determining contract valuation.

I have posted a very detailed and thorough breakdown of these players, and their play and production over the proper time-frames prior to signing, and included the necessary context. I have also given substantial explanation for anything not understood, and done adjustments at request.

The fact is, Matthews' contract fits well within his comparables.

Yes, the stats you have chosen to present substantiate your perspective. That's usually how it goes with stats.

Doesn't mean it's a correct perspective.

 

[horner]

It's not just the fact that they're overpaid... it's the "culture", or sense of entitlement.

You watch that Stanley Cup Final series -- and it's guys who regardless of skill level, salary, "stature within the team", they battle, they play with desperation. The level of compete between Brayden Point, Yanni Gourde, and Barclay Goodrow was the same.

Outside of Zach Hyman, Jake Muzzin, and maybe Kyle Clifford, the Leafs didn't have anyone who competed like that.

Why do the Bolts compete like that and the Leafs not? To me, it's about experience. Stamkos, Hedman, Johnson, Kucherov, Palat, Killorn, Vasilevsky all watched as the Chicago Blackhawks hoisted the cup 5 years ago. Ryan McDonagh has had a long career as captain of the Rangers, and watched the LA Kings hoist the Stanley Cup the year prior. These guys know that a real shot at a Stanley Cup is rare, and will run though a brick wall if they have to in order to get it.

Brayden Point, Mikhail Sergachev, Anthony Cirelli and Erik Cernak obviously didn't don't have that experience, but there is a strong leadership group for them to look up to. There's a very clear "pecking order" in Tampa Bay -- and a strong culture of "paying your dues".

After basically setting the league on fire last year, all of these guys were embarrassed by the Blue Jackets and learned an even better lesson that hard work trumps skill in the playoffs.

Is anyone on the Leafs "embarrassed" that they were beaten by the Columbus Blue Jackets? Doesn't seem so, there seems to be an overwhelming attitude / approach of "there's always next year", or "we got unlucky and ran into a hot goalie", or "we just didn't get a good matchup".

The "leaders" on the Leafs are Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly. Of those 5, only 1 has ever won a single playoff series -- and that was Tavares 4 years ago. That's not understanding what it takes to win in the playoffs. The element of realizing that your chances are fleeting only really comes when you get to around 30 years old.

To win a Stanley Cup, you've gotta be able to beat a team that's going to solely focus on trapping/stifling you. You've gotta beat a team that's going to try and overwhelm you with skill, and you've gotta be able to beat a team that's going to try and beat the living hell out of you.

Tampa Bay won this yr because they got the shit kicked out them last yr.
They brought in tougher stronger players in there bottom six.
They were willing to do anything to win.
Everybody bought in .
Blocking shots hitting and not worried about the name on there back

We have a ton of work to do

 

[seanlinden]

The Jackets core is generally older than thr Leafs guys. Point, the young guy is already 24.

If a team like that can learn from a conplete sweep in a way worse embarassment than anything the Leafs have had in recent years i think its silly to think the Leafs can't.

Matthews two way game has increased immensely since his rookie season, Nylander scores from the front of the net evt. These guys are clearly capable of improving, i think its just pure pessimism to think otherwise

An embarrassing sweep is a lot more valuable learning lesson than a close deciding game loss.

One you chalk up to a couple bad bounces, you spend the summer dreading on that post you hit or whatever, the other you spend the summer embarked, dreading your personal and team performance on the whole.

The problem with the leafs is they don't have an expectation of being in the cup final, or an appreciation for even how difficult that is.

 

[Racer88]

I believe voting in polls requires either a certain post count, or your account has to have existed for a certain amount of time.

Sounds good thx

 

[kb]

An embarrassing sweep is a lot more valuable learning lesson than a close deciding game loss.

One you chalk up to a couple bad bounces, you spend the summer dreading on that post you hit or whatever, the other you spend the summer embarked, dreading your personal and team performance on the whole.

The problem with the leafs is they don't have an expectation of being in the cup final, or an appreciation for even how difficult that is.

The Leafs are heartless, but Tampa was embarrassed and used it as a lesson?

It's a good thing I don't come here looking for quality analysis. This take is out to lunch. Doesn't matter how Tampa lost last year. They lost, period.

 

[seanlinden]

The Leafs are heartless, but Tampa was embarrassed and used it as a lesson?

It's a good thing I don't come here looking for quality analysis. This take is out to lunch. Doesn't matter how Tampa lost last year. They lost, period.

What do you think is a more powerful motivator? A close loss that came down to a bounce or two? Or complete embarrassment?

Embarrassment is generally indicative of having farther to go, but it is a Mich more powerful motivator.

Even if the leafs beat Columbus, they didn't stand a chance against the way Tampa evolved their game. The track meet hockey that the Leafs matched up pretty well against was gone.

 

[ToneDog]

The Leafs are heartless, but Tampa was embarrassed and used it as a lesson?

It's a good thing I don't come here looking for quality analysis. This take is out to lunch. Doesn't matter how Tampa lost last year. They lost, period.

Cooper did say that they needed to stop trying to beat teams 8-0 and thinking they needed to be the best show on ice. Yup it does not matter how you lost, it is what you learn, how you react to adversity and what you subsequently do that counts. Example Tampa Bay Lightning.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Doesn't mean it's a correct perspective.

It's not even a perspective. It's just the facts.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The problem with the leafs is they don't have an expectation of being in the cup final, or an appreciation for even how difficult that is.

You don't know this at all.

 

[Zarley Zalapski]

Exactly. In both the contracts, and the relevant stats, Matthews stands out. That's how it should be. Matthews is the best player of that group, and thus he gets the biggest contract.

The things you referenced were meaningless. You referenced post-season team success, which has nothing to do with the contracts. You referenced time periods (for production and team success) that were after they signed, which has zero relevance to the contracts. You're not even accounting for games played, let alone TOI impacts in your production, so you're clearly not being serious.

Just so I understand you correctly - You think postseason success (or lack thereof) is meaningless for GMs when it comes to negotiating RFA contracts? If so, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The numbers I provided were the point and goal totals for Matthews/Stamkos/Kane/Toews in each of their first 3 years. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[egd27]

It's not even a perspective. It's just the facts.

No it's a perspective. Here's an example of the difference

Perspective: TML should have beaten the CBJ in their playoff qualifier.

Fact: CBJ did beat the TML in their playoff qualifier.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You think postseason success (or lack thereof) is meaningless for GMs when it comes to negotiating RFA contracts?

There is zero evidence that team success (especially stuff other than a cup win) has any impact on post-ELC individual player contracts, and even if theoretically it did, it certainly couldn't be considered without context. Leafs faced two of the best teams in the league in their playoff series prior to signing, in a position (coming off last in the league) where most players don't even make the playoffs. It's not like the others did anything special individually in the playoffs prior to signing.

The numbers I provided were the point and goal totals for Matthews/Stamkos/Kane/Toews in each of their first 3 years.

You provided raw point and goal totals, which is an inaccurate representation of offensive ability/impact to start, and then we add on your exclusion of games played information, and then we add on your exclusion of TOI information (despite the fact that Stamkos/Toews/Kane came up in a different era and got like double the PP time, which massively impacts raw production), and then we add on your inclusion of time-frames that came after the contract was signed, and we end up with information that is completely useless for the purposes of contract valuation.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No it's a perspective.

No, it's a fact that he fits within his comparables, as I've shown.

 

[egd27]

No, it's a fact that he fits within his comparables, as I've shown.

Comparables is also a fairly arbitrary concept based on one's perspective.

 

[Racer88]

The Jackets core is generally older than thr Leafs guys. Point, the young guy is already 24.

If a team like that can learn from a conplete sweep in a way worse embarassment than anything the Leafs have had in recent years i think its silly to think the Leafs can't.

Matthews two way game has increased immensely since his rookie season, Nylander scores from the front of the net evt. These guys are clearly capable of improving, i think its just pure pessimism to think otherwise

I think losing to a Zamboni driver must have been pretty embarrassing and the Leafs were not ready for game one in the playin round. It doesn't look like they learned anything

 

[nuck]

I think losing to a Zamboni driver must have been pretty embarrassing and the Leafs were not ready for game one in the playin round. It doesn't look like they learned anything

Yea I almost forgot. You would think that would have been a come to Jesus moment for everyone. I know it was one for Dubas because he refused to deal Barrie at the deadline or make other deals knowing he had a playoff ready lineup.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Comparables is also a fairly arbitrary concept based on one's perspective.

No, the use of comparables is a fairly well established concept in the NHL, that's even used in arbitration.

 

[Menzinger]

I think losing to a Zamboni driver must have been pretty embarrassing and the Leafs were not ready for game one in the playin round. It doesn't look like they learned anything

I dont think any team would change because of a single event. Learning is a gradual process.

The Bolts had lots of ups and downs over the last several years until they finally managed to put things together

 

[egd27]

No, the use of comparables is a fairly well established concept in the NHL, that's even used in arbitration.

Yes, it's a concept that's even used in arbitration, it is not a fact used in arbitration.

One side presents what they think are fair comparisons, the other side presents what they think are fair comparisons.

The arbitrator then provides their opinion based on what they felt were the most realistic arguments.