Are the World Juniors highlighting the growing weakness in International hockey?

[Peter25]

The problem is at the junior level a country of 5 million people is of course going to be hardpressed to ice a competitive team each year when playing against much bigger countries... there's just not enough depth

It is not about population. It is about hockey resources which include the number of players, the number of rinks and the quality of training and coaching. These three factors mainly define the quality of a hockey nation.

I think Finland is a lot better off than Czech Republic and especially Slovakia. Hockey has lost a lot of steam in those two countries. They still produce good talent here and there, but not enough depht to compete in junior level. And the CHL incluence has been really bad for their hockey (as it is for Russia but with a lesser degree).

 

[aaronk21214]

What I'm saying is treat everyone the same.
USA hockey should get development money just like everyone else.
It's total BS that the NHL just hands over an 8 million dollar cheque to USA hockey.
You want to play with the big boys, build your development system like everyone else, without handouts that are designed to give one country a huge advantage.

The NHL is a hockey business, not a hockey organization. It’s one and only goal is (and should be) selling tickets to hockey games. This generation’s American junior is next generation’s season ticket holder. If the NHL ever creates a competitive league in Europe, then it should foster more European youth hockey, but only as an advertising/investment tool used to generate life-long hockey fans that want to go to NHL games.

It’s the IIHF’s job to foster a growth of hockey around the world. Maybe the IIHF should try and milk the NHL (as well as the KHL, SEL, and other pro leagues) for development money that they can more fairly distribute to the places that most need it, but that’s not really the NHL’s concern.

 

[Rogalo]

And the CHL incluence has been really bad for their hockey (as it is for Russia but with a lesser degree).

Really bad? What makes you say that? I believe KHL has´nt influenced junior hockey development in CZE at all. It has seriously affected Russian junior hockey for sure! But Czech or Slovak? I don´t think so. The exodus of Czech juniors to NA without compensation...that is a different story of course.

 

[Peter25]

Really bad? What makes you say that? I believe KHL has´nt influenced junior hockey development in CZE at all. It has seriously affected Russian junior hockey for sure! But Czech or Slovak? I don´t think so. The exodus of Czech juniors to NA without compensation...that is a different story of course.

I was talking about the CHL, not the KHL. CHL = major Canadian junior hockey league.

 

[Rogalo]

I was talking about the CHL, not the KHL. CHL = major Canadian junior hockey league.

Oh, my bad. I thought the KHL is occasionally translated - Continental Hockey League

 

[Peter25]

Russia is a bit of a different matter, but with Sochi coming hopefully the gov't decides to invest a lot of money into them winning.

Sochi is too close. Russian hockey needs a lot of reforms in a ground level and it will take 5-10 years before (or if) the results start to show.

Canada and Sweden reformed in the late 90s and early 00s the results have been showing lately.

 

[Peter25]

Russia, however, is a country of 140 million people that shouldn't have this same problem, so something must be wrong.

Again, it is not about population. How about China with 1,3 billion people? How is their hockey program doing?

It is all about hockey resources and how capital and work effort is allocated to improve these resources.

 

[Slimmy]

More kids playing hockey so they pay for tickets when they get older. The only thing the NHL is telling the youth leagues of Europe is that they know the vast majority will never buy an NHL ticket

Then why do they play NHL games in europe?

 

[NAI77]

I don't think that international hockey is growing weaker. Canada is the only country, except for perhaps Finland, where hockey is the #1 team sport, in Canada hockey is basically the only sport that matters so they will always have a natural advantage there.

The US is producing a lot of good players now, ie Kane, Kesler, etc. and is quickly growing as a hockey power. Sweden looks to be just as strong as always and is producing a lot of quality players as well. I thought that Finland was going to have a drop off as their "golden generation" of Selanne, Koivu, Lehtinen, etc. retires but they look very strong in this tournament thus far. Russia is still producing great individual players at the forward position but their national program seems to be in shambles.

The only countries that appear to be in real decline are the Czechs and Slovaks. The Czechs haven't produced anyone to fill the huge shoes of Jagr, Hasek, etc. and the Slovaks don't look to be producing a lot of talented players these days. That being said, both countries did fairly well at the Olympics and one should be careful not to read too much into the current tournament, especially as the World Juniors tend to be very North American-centric and Europeans don't play as well on the smaller ice surface.

 

[Phil McKraken]

I don't know if the WJC's are to bee seen as that indicative of the future at all. I mean, at least in Sweden's case, we haven't won this tournament in 28 years, and we've still been doing fine as a hockey nation since then.

 

[Muuri]

Hockey is Finland`s number 1 team sport no doubt, dont let finnish soccer fans fool you.

I wouldn`t put too much weight on Junior tournament results. Finns generally mature slower and hit their peak later.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

However, when you look at high end talent, Europe is doing just fine.

As of today, of the Top 50 players in the NHL :

26 are Canadian
8 Swedes
6 American
4 Russian
4 Slovakian or Czech
2 Finns

 

[Ryker]

Huh, what top50 list are you looking at that doesn't involve Kopitar?

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Huh, what top50 list are you looking at that doesn't involve Kopitar?

I may have assumed Kopitar was Slovakian.

Sorry.

 

[mattihp]

If a ethnic swede(which many say doesn't even exist) came about behaving himself like Zlatan, i would say the same thing. Look at Umicevic. His family have a background in Yugoslavia, but the guy is sympathetic as hell, he works hard and has a good attitude.

Yugoslavians are very often considered hard and honest workers.. No surprise at all there...

 

[Botta]

I disagree.

The NHL by giving USA hockey 8+ million a year is a slap in the face to European hockey nations.

It's obvious what the NHL wants.

If it was all about being fair, the NHL would give USA hockey developmental money, not a handout that is no where near what USA hockey deserves.

I stick to my point. The NHL is more or less telling European hockey....**** you, we don't need you.

And as I said before. I'd prefer 5 or 6 strong hockey countries to what soon will be a 2 horse race between Canada and the states.

In the past, we have seen some amazing, gifted players coming from Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic and the way it's going, that number is shrinking every year...and that's not good for international hockey.

If the NHL want 2 nations to play the game...How long will the sport exist?

 

[Rogalo]

I may have assumed Kopitar was Slovakian.

Sorry.

So you had a category that included players from 3 different countries - Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovenia. Interesting approach Next time make a Scandinavia group...it´s gonna be a timesaver

 

[Hackett]

Gone are the days when sweden was beating japan 20-1 in 1990.

I think the bottom tier teams have closed the gap a little bit. They dont get blown out as badly as they used to. This was a tournament for Canada and the USSR/Russia for the longest time, and recently, its been more of a canada/USA tourney with Sweden lurking around.

I dont think the overall disparity is growing at all. You want disparity, go watch women's hockey.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I apologize if someone else has said this but too many pages to read thru. Basically I dont think its as much a problem with the international hockey as it is that both Canada and the US have focused more recently on developing their players.

Particularly the US has really worked a lot harder in the last 4-5 yrs on the National Team Development Program (USNTDP). The proof is in the last draft where so many US-born players were drafted early (ten 1st rounders) and a third of those were from the USNTDP. Another 4 players were selected in the 2nd round that were on the USNTDP too (Faulk, Merrill, Zucker, & Johns) and 6 others were US-born in the 2nd round. When you look at this yr's WJC team for the US, most of them come from the NTDP. So I would just say that the US has just devoted more time & money to developing their talent as opposed to the other European nations.

I would like to see more competition in this tournament though and hope some Euro nations see what the US has done with their development program. I personally dont think it is that difficult of a task to try and work on developing their nations best players via a specific program that focuses on tournaments like this. It helps the players to get drafted higher which is a positive for that nation and maybe reduces the amount of Euro's heading to the CHL instead of staying at home.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

It's been mentioned here a few times, but in my opinion, the difference we are seeing is a result of the North American style moving away from systems and defense and focusing more on creativity, speed, and individual skill.

This has been discussed at length internationally, so I am not saying anything new, but I agree with the assessment. It shows on the ice.

 

[Antraxh]

I apologize if someone else has said this but too many pages to read thru. Basically I dont think its as much a problem with the international hockey as it is that both Canada and the US have focused more recently on developing their players.

Particularly the US has really worked a lot harder in the last 4-5 yrs on the National Team Development Program (USNTDP). The proof is in the last draft where so many US-born players were drafted early (ten 1st rounders) and a third of those were from the USNTDP. Another 4 players were selected in the 2nd round that were on the USNTDP too (Faulk, Merrill, Zucker, & Johns) and 6 others were US-born in the 2nd round. When you look at this yr's WJC team for the US, most of them come from the NTDP. So I would just say that the US has just devoted more time & money to developing their talent as opposed to the other European nations.

I would like to see more competition in this tournament though and hope some Euro nations see what the US has done with their development program. I personally dont think it is that difficult of a task to try and work on developing their nations best players via a specific program that focuses on tournaments like this. It helps the players to get drafted higher which is a positive for that nation and maybe reduces the amount of Euro's heading to the CHL instead of staying at home.

To be frank, US has been a underachiever in icehockey for a long time. Regarding size and posibillities. Its is like you say only recently they have put together a decent youth program for their players. Finally.

Leading european countries have done this for years. You will ofcourse need a stable national hockey association to make a nationwide effort with your youths and i think that this is the problem with the eastern european countries. Things fell apart in the early 90s and it has taken some time to settle down.

 

[UvBnDatsyuked]

Then why do they play NHL games in europe?

So they can make enough off of the ticket sales in order to pay for Xmas office party

 

[mattihp]

So you had a category that included players from 3 different countries - Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovenia. Interesting approach Next time make a Scandinavia group...it´s gonna be a timesaver

How so? There are no Norwegian or Danish stars in the NHL.

FINLAND is not a part of scandinavia

 

[glovesave_35]

I don't agree that Sweden had a "dry spell" with early/mid 80's players. What we've seen in Swedish hockey lately is a conscious effort to bring a winning team to these tournaments by recruiting competent and passionate leaders into all levels of the Tre Kronor junior hockey aswell as investing more time and money into these teams.
It truly has paid off and we're seeing a lot of Swedes taking an interest into these games now, which can not only be credited by the success in the last few years in the JWC. People are taking notice to the effort and the investment which is generating a lot of positivity.

I watched an interview with Hakan Andersson where he talked about a change in philosophy over the last few years with regards to all levels of hockey development in Sweden. Swedish hockey is still on the up-tick in my opinion due to these grassroots efforts by the powers that be in Sweden.

As efficient at producing elite level talent as Sweden is, they, along with all of the other hockey playing countries not named Canada, USA, and Russia will always be at a disadvantage simply due to limitations of population. The disadvantage is slight though and can be accounted for, as we are seeing with hockey in Sweden.

Russia is the biggest question mark to me. A country with that type of hockey heritage and a more than decent population should be producing A) more talent, and B) better national teams of all ages. From the outside looking in, something is very wrong with the development strategies in Russia. Sometimes it looks like they can't get out of their own way, which is how I felt about the 2010 Russian Olympic squad.

Again, it is not about population. How about China with 1,3 billion people? How is their hockey program doing?

It is all about hockey resources and how capital and work effort is allocated to improve these resources.

Straw man argument. You're right, it's not all about population. But using an absurd example of a country with a non-existent hockey culture doesn't have much of anything to do with the state of the sport in traditional hockey countries. I will agree that the issue is primarily resources and efficiency in the sense you refer to, but there comes a point where a drastic difference in one type of resource - warm bodies - that one or two or three countries will always have a distinct advantage, although it's not the end all be all.

 

[glovesave_35]

It's been mentioned here a few times, but in my opinion, the difference we are seeing is a result of the North American style moving away from systems and defense and focusing more on creativity, speed, and individual skill.

This has been discussed at length internationally, so I am not saying anything new, but I agree with the assessment. It shows on the ice.

Consider me new to the discussion you mention.

How does a country like Russia fit into this scenario? Do they also not focus more on creativity, speed, and individual skill?...perhaps to a fault? They have been perennial underachievers in international play, both at the junior and senior level.*


* I suppose I should clarify that World Championships don't really impress me very much, not when they run concurrent with Stanley Cup playoffs. The Olympic squad was a combination of ill-fitting parts; too much flash, not enough substance.