Are the World Juniors highlighting the growing weakness in International hockey?

[New User Name]

Ok Agree. They should stop giving money to USA Hockey. I have no problem with that. Makes more sense than you saying to just give to Euro countries for no other reason than to not forget about them.

What I'm saying is treat everyone the same.

USA hockey should get development money just like everyone else.

It's total BS that the NHL just hands over an 8 million dollar cheque to USA hockey.

You want to play with the big boys, build your development system like everyone else, without handouts that are designed to give one country a huge advantage.

 

[dubey]

WJC is really only a three team tournament

Canada, USA, Russia/Sweden (depending on year)

It's not even worth watching until the elimination round

 

[17*]

As long as there are these competing leagues in Europe like the KHL, the NHL won't be donating much money to European development.

 

[jkrdevil]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but here is my two cents on the issue. The big issue is population and the player pool the countries can choose from. If you look at the registered player statistics the US and Canada blow all the other countries out of the water. Both have more players than all the other big European hockey nations combined. A deeper player pool plus pouring in all the resources as possible (and both countries do that) means those two are probably going to end up being the favorites at the age group levels year after year. The others are probably going to go through some more down years and then some years where they do compete with the NA teams. This is more pronounced at the age level tournaments (U20, U18) because the age limits thin out the player pools already. It does present a problem of competitive games at the junior levels.

It isn't as big of an issue at the senior tournaments. There are no limits on age, so each country and pick out the best from the different age groups. That tends to eliminate the issue of great depth differences. Upsets aren't as pronounced there.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Since he wants guys born abroad... there's often the age problem. They're too old to get into hockey (start playing or the culture) when they arrive.

They're lots of swedish born swedes of foreign descent in elite hockey; and within 5 years there'll be more because more and more immigrant families can work their way up into the middle class now.

I don't think so. I bet most of them want's to be like Zlatan, playing soccer. Which is fine by me. I know there are idiots in hockey, but we don't need "Zlatans" in hockey. I know it's controversial to say so, but it's my opinion.
Still, guys like Umicevic where very promising a couple of years ago to really have an impact. I guess we will see.

 

[mattihp]

I don't think so. I bet most of them want's to be like Zlatan, playing soccer. Which is fine by me.

Of course, like with ethnic northern europeans in sweden, people prefer football. But with a growing middle class in any ethnic/cultural group in a hockey playing nation there will come more hockey players. Take a trip out to Huddinge (big talent factory for several teams, including Djurgårdens) and see their 12-14 year olds practice... Far from only blonde Mats Sundins.

The freeing from the shackles of the social democrats' weird tries at integration is also showing it's effect in that more and more foreign families have more than one income nowadays.

I know there are idiots in hockey, but we don't need "Zlatans" in hockey. I know it's controversial to say so, but it's my opinion.

So... Swedes like per say.. Lilja, Huselius and Tallinder is fine by you? And no Zlatan types will come out of an Andersson, Svensson or Johansson named mother?

 

[Antraxh]

The biggest threat against hockey in Sweden is soccer and floorball.

Soccer used to be a summer sport in sweden but lately the kids are playing it all year from a young age. Forcing them to choose between a winter sport and soccer. Loosing alot of players in u11 already to soccer.

Floorball is directly competing for attention in a way i did not do 10 years ago. I would bet that this "new" sport has more licenced youth players than hockey.

These are not the only problems for hockey in Sweden.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Of course, like with ethnic northern europeans in sweden, people prefer football. But with a growing middle class in any ethnic/cultural group in a hockey playing nation there will come more hockey players. Take a trip out to Huddinge (big talent factory for several teams, including Djurgårdens) and see their 12-14 year olds practice... Far from only blonde Mats Sundins.

The freeing from the shackles of the social democrats' weird tries at integration is also showing it's effect in that more and more foreign families have more than one income nowadays.


So... Swedes like per say.. Lilja, Huselius and Tallinder is fine by you? And no Zlatan types will come out of an Andersson, Svensson or Johansson named mother?

I am not disputing the fact that more kids with a foreign background are playing hockey, but it will take a long time before we really se a effect. And i am not as optimistic as you are about their possibility of entry to the middle class. Alot of immigrants who arrived 20 years ago have never worked and are poorly assimilated into the country. Again, these are issues that most be solved for us to really see an effect.

Did you read my post, by the way? I said that there are idiots in hockey to, and those you mentioned are prime candidates for despicable morons. I just don't want the mentaliy of Zlatan introduced in hockey. Im sorry, but i never liked him, and it has got nothing to do with his ethnicity. I just dont like his mentality/attitude.

If a ethnic swede(which many say doesn't even exist) came about behaving himself like Zlatan, i would say the same thing. Look at Umicevic. His family have a background in Yugoslavia, but the guy is sympathetic as hell, he works hard and has a good attitude.

 

[walle]

For me the biggest weakness in International hockey is that MEN World Championship where USA and Canada come to with their D-roster and while Europeans have pretty much their A-lineup (minus nhl, injured, tired). I dont know but it take's the respect away when 2 leading hockey countries wont play one of the main international tournaments every year with good lineup.

Now the World Junior Championship is totally diffent. We have USA and Canada and they have great teams. (yeah they miss some stars but that's it) They have the best they can get. I dont care if they end up in the final while bashing every other country before it but atleast we have a good tournament and with BEST teams. I dont know if skill-diffencies could be called as a weakness. Sweden has produced huge amount of talent lately and they can challenge the americans. Its a sign that if Europeans do their job right we'll be able to compete with North America. No doubt about it. This is a good measure to test it.

 

[heksagon]

For me the biggest weakness in International hockey is that MEN World Championship where USA and Canada come to with their D-roster and while Europeans have pretty much their A-lineup (minus nhl, injured, tired). I dont know but it take's the respect away when 2 leading hockey countries wont play one of the main international tournaments every year with good lineup.

Now the World Junior Championship is totally diffent. We have USA and Canada and they have great teams. (yeah they miss some stars but that's it) They have the best they can get. I dont care if they end up in the final while bashing every other country before it but atleast we have a good tournament and with BEST teams. I dont know if skill-diffencies could be called as a weakness. Sweden has produced huge amount of talent lately and they can challenge the americans. Its a sign that if Europeans do their job right we'll be able to compete with North America. No doubt about it. This is a good measure to test it.

A-lineup without NHL:rs? How´s that possible? Almost every team has a B-team in the World Champions, the European teams like Sweden, Finland, Russia, Czechs and so on are not an exception. The countries that have like 0-2 NHL:rs have pretty much their A-team in the Worlds but they don´t have a chance anyway.

 

[Antraxh]

A-lineup without NHL:rs? How´s that possible? Almost every team has a B-team in the World Champions, the European teams like Sweden, Finland, Russia, Czechs and so on are not an exception. The countries that have like 0-2 NHL:rs have pretty much their A-team in the Worlds but they don´t have a chance anyway.

All leagues in europe have breaks during the season for international play, including the World champions. Perhaps something for the major power in hockey to think about. If the want to spread the sport.

 

[walle]

A-lineup without NHL:rs? How´s that possible?

Ofcourse its not olympic level but still good. Finland has a history of getting pretty much every NHL-guy (even after first playoff round guys like Lehtinen came in to play for their country.) And in the opposite side guys like Mi.Kiprusoff who declined once and went for the holiday instead was consired like a nation-traitor if you asked fans. For americans their star-player not wanting to come it never was a big deal since it was only wc.

I do agree that players getting older and stuff has resulted in much more declines lately (especially for sweden its been horrible lately) But the best players are still wanted instead of like team USA seems to always come with their younger generation of players (and i dont mean its bad or anything, id just wish that they would also try and get their best guys). Or team like slovakia who had small and talented group of highskill players and once they got the majority out of them they also succeeded well. And while some rejected for whatever reasons it (for me) seemed that the rest just went along with it knowing they would have no success, no point of coming.

So yes you're right, i was a bit off fact that it would be just be NA, its a problem for Europeans also. I just wished and prestige would grow somehow and teams would come there to win it thats all. For me its the main event right after NHL every year.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but here is my two cents on the issue. The big issue is population and the player pool the countries can choose from. If you look at the registered player statistics the US and Canada blow all the other countries out of the water. Both have more players than all the other big European hockey nations combined. A deeper player pool plus pouring in all the resources as possible (and both countries do that) means those two are probably going to end up being the favorites at the age group levels year after year. The others are probably going to go through some more down years and then some years where they do compete with the NA teams. This is more pronounced at the age level tournaments (U20, U18) because the age limits thin out the player pools already. It does present a problem of competitive games at the junior levels.

It isn't as big of an issue at the senior tournaments. There are no limits on age, so each country and pick out the best from the different age groups. That tends to eliminate the issue of great depth differences. Upsets aren't as pronounced there.

You are missing the point. This population issue has largely always existed. What i intend to convey was the actual regression of registered players and the stagnation of independent development systems.

Slovakia and the Czechs poor performance is much deeper than simply population, how else would they have dropped so far?

Make no mistake, this run of bad Junior results WILL impact Senior performances in 5-10 years.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

I don't think so. I bet most of them want's to be like Zlatan, playing soccer. Which is fine by me. I know there are idiots in hockey, but we don't need "Zlatans" in hockey. I know it's controversial to say so, but it's my opinion.
Still, guys like Umicevic where very promising a couple of years ago to really have an impact. I guess we will see.

Zlatan is awesome. I don't know why people keep hating on him, probably because he speaks his mind and some people can't take that.
Jantelagen and all that jazz.

 

[Dosing]

Zlatan is awesome. I don't know why people keep hating on him, probably because he speaks his mind and some people can't take that.
Jantelagen and all that jazz.

Being a bully is speaking ur mind?
Because of what hes done for the nationalteam all social expectations has been taken off from him, he can do whatever and say whatever, basically hes swedens own "riksmongo"

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

Being a bully is speaking ur mind?
Because of what hes done for the nationalteam all social expectations has been taken off from him, he can do whatever and say whatever, basically hes swedens own "riksmongo"

Bully? Are you using Aftonbladet as a source?

 

[Dosing]

Bully? Are you using Aftonbladet as a source?

Iv'e seen youtube videos were he insults reporters offcamera, his personality is horrible and hearing him talk anywhere but national TV will tell you as much.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

Iv'e seen youtube videos were he insults reporters offcamera, his personality is horrible and hearing him talk anywhere but national TV will tell you as much.

Who, Ekwall? It's called joking.

 

[Dosing]

Who, Ekwall? It's called joking.

Yea to the one making the jokes, your a perfect example of people dissmissing his behaviour because of how good he is

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

Yea to the one making the jokes, your a perfect example of people dissmissing his behaviour because of how good he is

It's pretty obvious that is just some banter to both of them.

 

[Dosing]

It's pretty obvious that is just some banter to both of them.

What you think every person shows their hurt when someone picks on them? especially if due to their job they have to lick their bullys ass, yet mr.rosengård rides his privileges like 5$ "%#¤"#

 

[slovakiasnextone]

You are missing the point. This population issue has largely always existed. What i intend to convey was the actual regression of registered players and the stagnation of independent development systems.

Slovakia and the Czechs poor performance is much deeper than simply population, how else would they have dropped so far?

Make no mistake, this run of bad Junior results WILL impact Senior performances in 5-10 years.

There was nowhere from where Slovakia could have fallen in this tourney, IMO all results since independence:
1994 1st in Pool C
1995 1st in Pool B
1996 7th
1997 6th
1998 9th
1999 3rd
2000 9th
2001 8th
2002 8th
2003 5th
2004 6th
2005 7th
2006 8th
2007 8th
2008 7th
2009 4th
2010 8th

They had some better and some worse results in the past, finishing even 9th in 1998 and 2000, albeit under the old format. However you have to consider that the competition at the bottom of the elite group was weaker in those earlier years.

The 2000 team is a great example of how even a more talented team can absolutely fail (and they´re not the only team on this list)- I looked at the roster and I counted 16 players that have played on the men´s national team pretty regularly over the years, 12 have played at leats a few games in the NHL, some longer, some shorter.

I´m not trying to say that there isn´t trouble, there is, but the fact is that we just have never been regularly competitive in this tournament, also thanks to it´s format which allows only 6 teams to get into the next round, IMO we used to regularly make it to the quarterfinals in this tourney, but that was when there were 8 teams getting there. Also, I mentioned that the competition at the bottom of the elite pool has gotten bigger and it also has to be mentioned that since 2000 both the Americans and the US have made big strides, so it is harder for a team that pretty much froze it´s development to play close games against them. But when you look at the past tournaments, it´s not like Slovakia didn´t always get blown out with scores like 7-1 by Canadians for example (of course there are some exceptions.)

 

[Slimmy]

Iv'e seen youtube videos were he insults reporters offcamera, his personality is horrible and hearing him talk anywhere but national TV will tell you as much.

You mean TV4 reporters and Aftonbladets Robert Laul. If anything that makes him a national hero in my eyes. F'in HATE TV4.

Eather way, Zlatan has matured a lot in these last few years. He's become a father and a husband and I think he's a great leader for our national team.

 

[Peter25]

In order to make international hockey healthy again the Soviet Union needs to be reborn.

That was naturally a joke, but it holds some truth. In the post-Soviet era the international hockey has become dull and boring, and less competitive. I miss those old CCCP teams.

Canada and the US are dominating due to their resources. They have over ten times more rinks and players than any European nation. The Europeans used to be able to compete because their training and coaching was better than in North America, but this gap was been almost closed now. And most of the top Euro talent (except for Swedes and Finns) choose to play in the CHL these days, which further brings up the level of Canadian junior hockey and deprives (Eastern) Europe off any serious talent.

Hockey is in a danger of being further marginalized if only two countries can seriously compete for championships in the future.

Russia is clearly the only country in Europe which has capacity to challence North Americans, but the way Russian hockey is managed I'm not very optimistic about Russia being able to return to top. Their junior program is regressing, not getting stronger.

 

[Peter25]

I hope your kidding with the drugs comment.

So it is politically correct to blame only the former communist countries athletes of drug usage?