Are the Leafs built to compete and win?

[stuart5035]

The analyst Craig Buttons comments following last nights debacle against St Louis , combined with other expert insights have made for some introspective thoughts:

His summary of the game was that “the Leafs were beaten to the puck all night long, they lost the physical battles on the boards-the reason there was no room out there was because they couldn’t create any.

The “expert insight” heard elsewhere was that the word was out in the league on how to play the Leafs; no penalties, clog the middle, force them to the boards, be physical”. He also opined that the Leafs lacked the colourful character(s) that could inject needed energy when needed (like a Bob Kelly could do with the Flyers years ago)

Is the numbing trap that St Louis threw on us a harbinger of things to come? Are we going to be watching many such games where we can never seem to muster any sustained possession? Are we doomed to “dump and chase”, forced on us by our opponents, with players not suited for that type of game? Is Shanahan’s template of clean quick talent fatally flawed, good in “loosely, goosey early October only? Should every talented tandem, be it Matthews/Kapanen or Tavares/Marner, should each line have the beefy large winger for those board battles? Should we sacrifice some defensive finesse and puck handling for a few Josh Manson types that will punish enemy forwards that get too close?

I will cheer them always, ever since I fell in love with them in the late sixties, and I will yearn for every magical moment that we saw early on, I will never stop. This is not about firing the coach or how bad a particular player is, or bad refs, or how we are missing Nylander, I am looking at the foundation of this team.

What say you? Will we adjust? Do we have the right parts to combat and adjust to the “clogging” we will see? And this isn’t about toughness, God knows that’s been dissected, I don’t buy that we can be intimidated-look how we hit back at Boston in last years playoffs (I even added up the heights and weights of the Leafs roster and compared it to several other teams-we are no pushovers.

Will that be the solution? Will we see a much more physical team?

What say you? I hope you are a real fan, that you know they are trying their best, that you will tough it out through thick and thin.

Click to read more...

 

[slozo]

It's a very similar gameplan against skilled teams... and the Leafs will have to fight through it and out-compete their opposition sometimes before the skill goals start raining down again.

It's early, and it takes time.

 

[hector morrison]

Maybe management was thinking that if they have enough offensive talent,they could not be contained! Most teams like to strive for a balance of abilities that form a good 'be prepared for any kind of game ' attitude. The Leafs with Willy on board might actually have enough(too much) talent to pull it off!
That said, I can see them winning a lot all season ,only to encounter that differently reffed playoff atmosphere once again! So,the prospect of trading an unhappy Willy for some other needed element might be worthwhile...depending on the deal of course!

 

[Mr Hockey]

I don't think the elite teams will trap us, but the other 20'ish team will or they will be dominated. We will use the dump and chase against the trapping teams followed by posting that Babcock should be fired because he is outdated by the usual lil group of guys lol

 

[Pookie]

The analyst Craig Buttons comments following last nights debacle against St Louis , combined with other expert insights have made for some introspective thoughts:

His summary of the game was that “the Leafs were beaten to the puck all night long, they lost the physical battles on the boards-the reason there was no room out there was because they couldn’t create any.

The “expert insight” heard elsewhere was that the word was out in the league on how to play the Leafs; no penalties, clog the middle, force them to the boards, be physical”. He also opined that the Leafs lacked the colourful character(s) that could inject needed energy when needed (like a Bob Kelly could do with the Flyers years ago)

Is the numbing trap that St Louis threw on us a harbinger of things to come? Are we going to be watching many such games where we can never seem to muster any sustained possession? Are we doomed to “dump and chase”, forced on us by our opponents, with players not suited for that type of game? Is Shanahan’s template of clean quick talent fatally flawed, good in “loosely, goosey early October only? Should every talented tandem, be it Matthews/Kapanen or Tavares/Marner, should each line have the beefy large winger for those board battles? Should we sacrifice some defensive finesse and puck handling for a few Josh Manson types that will punish enemy forwards that get too close?

I will cheer them always, ever since I fell in love with them in the late sixties, and I will yearn for every magical moment that we saw early on, I will never stop. This is not about firing the coach or how bad a particular player is, or bad refs, or how we are missing Nylander, I am looking at the foundation of this team.

What say you? Will we adjust? Do we have the right parts to combat and adjust to the “clogging” we will see? And this isn’t about toughness, God knows that’s been dissected, I don’t buy that we can be intimidated-look how we hit back at Boston in last years playoffs (I even added up the heights and weights of the Leafs roster and compared it to several other teams-we are no pushovers.

Will that be the solution? Will we see a much more physical team?

What say you? I hope you are a real fan, that you know they are trying their best, that you will tough it out through thick and thin.

I’d say his opinion reflects my own.

We are fine to accumulate points in the regular season.

We don’t have the “grit” necessary to defeat teams that outwork our finesse.

 

[Lauro]

We'll adjust.

 

[Cleetus]

Id say we will Adjust too, plus last night it seemed we lost a lot of faceoffs that didnt help. we gotta get that work ethic up and we will start to take over games.

 

[Myopic]

This is one of the reasons why Babcock had Hyman with Matthews last year. Austin probably lobbied for more skill on that line and Hyman was replaced with Marleau. Marleau is getting old before our eyes this season. He's had a very poor start. Don't forget that AM34 has scored most of his goals on the PP. I'm not sure about 91.

Despite the recent chatter in here, Babs is no idiot. He knows that they will have some nights (and most of the playoffs) when they must dump and chase. There is no better way to beat the trap. Hyman was the heavy guy who had enough speed to retrieve pucks. Willy wasn't a puck retriever on that line last year.

The early part of this season teams allowed them to carry the puck (with skill) over the blueline. That obviously has changed the last two games. Teams are clogging up the neutral zone and trapping. The long pass won't work. Marleau hasn't been as good as Hyman at chasing down pucks.

You not only need a puck retriever but you have to help out along the boards if the grinder doesn't get possession. The Leafs have simply been outworked recently. I don't think they like grinding very much and have taken those nights off. Babs is right, it will take hard work to right the ship. I hope the team has been shocked into facing this reality.

The Leafs skill really shines on the powerplay. If teams are not taking penalties they'll have to work hard and grind it out to score goals. Babcock was hinting at this during the orgy of goals but players won't listen until they fail. Now he has their attention, hopefully.

In terms of personnel, the Leafs aren't there yet. I'm sure Babcock would like a bit more size on his team. They could use a couple more Hyman or young Komarov types who love the grind. If they can find more skilled heavy players, all the better.

 

[ULF_55]

We'll adjust.

Of course we the fans will adjust we always have.

Heck I have closing on 60 years of watching them

Let's hope they adjust, because this isn't a new weakness, we've seen this before.

 

[Leaf Fans]

The analyst Craig Buttons comments following last nights debacle against St Louis , combined with other expert insights have made for some introspective thoughts:

His summary of the game was that “the Leafs were beaten to the puck all night long, they lost the physical battles on the boards-the reason there was no room out there was because they couldn’t create any.

The “expert insight” heard elsewhere was that the word was out in the league on how to play the Leafs; no penalties, clog the middle, force them to the boards, be physical”. He also opined that the Leafs lacked the colourful character(s) that could inject needed energy when needed (like a Bob Kelly could do with the Flyers years ago)

Is the numbing trap that St Louis threw on us a harbinger of things to come? Are we going to be watching many such games where we can never seem to muster any sustained possession? Are we doomed to “dump and chase”, forced on us by our opponents, with players not suited for that type of game? Is Shanahan’s template of clean quick talent fatally flawed, good in “loosely, goosey early October only? Should every talented tandem, be it Matthews/Kapanen or Tavares/Marner, should each line have the beefy large winger for those board battles? Should we sacrifice some defensive finesse and puck handling for a few Josh Manson types that will punish enemy forwards that get too close?

I will cheer them always, ever since I fell in love with them in the late sixties, and I will yearn for every magical moment that we saw early on, I will never stop. This is not about firing the coach or how bad a particular player is, or bad refs, or how we are missing Nylander, I am looking at the foundation of this team.

What say you? Will we adjust? Do we have the right parts to combat and adjust to the “clogging” we will see? And this isn’t about toughness, God knows that’s been dissected, I don’t buy that we can be intimidated-look how we hit back at Boston in last years playoffs (I even added up the heights and weights of the Leafs roster and compared it to several other teams-we are no pushovers.

Will that be the solution? Will we see a much more physical team?

What say you? I hope you are a real fan, that you know they are trying their best, that you will tough it out through thick and thin.

It is not a new idea. That is the neutral zone trap. Now there is no neutral zone per se all it clogging the middle. As for penalties, these things tend to even out.

 

[Hclass47]

Compete and execution is what the leafs need consistently. Regardless of team, system, trap etc they are playing against they need to be prepared to play 100% every shift. Teams are gunning for them and don’t want to be blown out or embarrassed. The league has there attention

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Reilly.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang.

Sure, maybe the Pens core was slightly better. But I’m not sure if their supporting cast was superior.

Was it easy for teams to “clog the middle” against the Pens? They won2 of the last 3 cups. Our elite players will adjust. Just like the Pens did. Reminder that we’re 6-3.

 

[Stephen]

If we want to get philosophical, the game within the game is always the struggle to play the game on your terms, and I think that's where the "intangibles" people always refer to come into play. If you have a grinding team, can you establish your game before the doors blown off, and if you're the skilled, skating team, can you sufficiently shock and awe the grinding team to chaos? When you play a team that's stylistically different from your own, you could make them look terrible: LA Kings, or they can make you look terrible: St. Louis Blues/Boston Bruins.

Generally, in the 1990s they figured out how to kill all the run and gun offense from the 1980s. So that recipe is always available for any team facing a kind of retro skill program like Toronto's, or pre cup Washington's or whomever.

I think the blueline needs to be upgraded to get them to the next level. Not necessarily with bruisers, but with guys who can transition and regroup with more precision. We need another look like a prime Kaberle who can calmly marshal up the ice that doesn't look like Gardiner's casual skate, or Rielly's frantic dashes, cause you need those guys to "ice break" up those neutral zone trap styles. We also need those Lidstrom-Rafalski types whom you can swing the puck back to and calm things down and help pick apart the log jam in neutral ice with good clean passes.

At the end of the day, it's up to our kids to figure out a way to play the game they want, and it's up to coaching and management to adjust the pieces to get them there, but I suspect they'll look a little different than they do now.

 

[NightTrain1]

The analyst Craig Buttons comments following last nights debacle against St Louis , combined with other expert insights have made for some introspective thoughts:

His summary of the game was that “the Leafs were beaten to the puck all night long, they lost the physical battles on the boards-the reason there was no room out there was because they couldn’t create any.

The “expert insight” heard elsewhere was that the word was out in the league on how to play the Leafs; no penalties, clog the middle, force them to the boards, be physical”. He also opined that the Leafs lacked the colourful character(s) that could inject needed energy when needed (like a Bob Kelly could do with the Flyers years ago)

Is the numbing trap that St Louis threw on us a harbinger of things to come? Are we going to be watching many such games where we can never seem to muster any sustained possession? Are we doomed to “dump and chase”, forced on us by our opponents, with players not suited for that type of game? Is Shanahan’s template of clean quick talent fatally flawed, good in “loosely, goosey early October only? Should every talented tandem, be it Matthews/Kapanen or Tavares/Marner, should each line have the beefy large winger for those board battles? Should we sacrifice some defensive finesse and puck handling for a few Josh Manson types that will punish enemy forwards that get too close?

I will cheer them always, ever since I fell in love with them in the late sixties, and I will yearn for every magical moment that we saw early on, I will never stop. This is not about firing the coach or how bad a particular player is, or bad refs, or how we are missing Nylander, I am looking at the foundation of this team.

What say you? Will we adjust? Do we have the right parts to combat and adjust to the “clogging” we will see? And this isn’t about toughness, God knows that’s been dissected, I don’t buy that we can be intimidated-look how we hit back at Boston in last years playoffs (I even added up the heights and weights of the Leafs roster and compared it to several other teams-we are no pushovers.

Will that be the solution? Will we see a much more physical team?

What say you? I hope you are a real fan, that you know they are trying their best, that you will tough it out through thick and thin.

Im just so frustrated but I cant stop responding to this stuff.

The “expert insight” heard elsewhere was that the word was out in the league on how to play the Leafs; no penalties, clog the middle, force them to the boards, be physical”.

If this is what 'expert insight' looks like in the NHL, the league has a serious problem because a 10 year old with hockey knowledge could figure that out. Seriously, again with this crap of "oh my god they figured out our super secret elite playbook and now we're doomed. The Leafs have been playing the same general way for 2 years, and this year have gotten even better talent and experience wise, yet somehow after 7 games of the Leafs shelling the league they have JUST NOW figured it out. wtf

Teams all last year attempted to trap the Leafs and throw different styles at them to slow them down. What was the result? A 100 year franchise record 107 points and an extremely tough 7 game playoff series against a heavily favoured and experienced Bruins team. The Leafs ran over every level of team last season from from the Cup Champions to the Cup runner ups. They took apart the stifling defenses of Nashville, Boston, Anaheim and Los Angeles, to outgunning the leagues offensive powerhouses Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh and Winnipeg.

They also started October almost identically to this season if anybody cares to go back and look they will see. Toronto went 7-2 right off the bat beating Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, Montreal, Detroit and losing to Ottawa with 31 goals for and 28 against. (sounding familiar yet?) Then they went on a 3 game losing streak and it was the same deal in the forums, the world fell to pieces. They rebounded with a win and people were optimistic but followed that with 2 more losses and bi-polar Leafs Nation were calling for the heads of nearly everyone because the league had figured out Babcocks system and the players all sucked. Then the teams found its stride and the skill took over the the Leafs went on a 12-3-1 run before hitting another small losing streak.

There is no expert insight here and analysts and tv talking heads are on the air to generate conversation and turmoil. Every team has groups of people in addition to the coaches and scouts constantly analyzing and scrutinizing game footage and player performance looking for an edge. But there is absolutely no "figuring out" of basic hockey systems that are used by every team in every game for decades. It's all about execution and effort which is what the Leafs are lacking right now.

 

[Shayne Corsi]

This is a largely contrived narrative in my view ... how is "staying out of the box" a unique strategy employed against us? That's one of the overarching goals of every team in every game they play lol. The problem is that it's not that easy to do; and I don't think the lack of penalties in the last two games has been "by design" so much as it has been dumb luck. I agree that Babcock can be frustratingly stubborn sometimes and very slow to adapt in general, but let's wait longer than two--albeit frustrating--games before we conclude that other teams have suddenly just "figured us out."

 

[Leafling]

Don't wanna judge them too much just yet, but the game against Pittsburgh wasn't bad at all. Against the Blues though i felt not only were they winning those physical battles but also their passing and puck movement was cleaner than ours. The latter will not always be the case, as speed and skill is this teams pride.

I trust Babs and he is trying to preach a tighter game as we all know that just scoring 5 goals a night is not sustainable and certainly not gonna work in playoff hockey. They will work the kinks out soon, I already see the d improving with the play of Dermot n Ozi.

I do think we lack some pesky characters though. Naz has seemed so idk careful, possibly due to the playoff suspension, but we probably need some 4th line agitator. Maybe Goat, or leivo, or even Hyman can take up that role of getting under the skin of opposition.

 

[Apotheosis]

I never understood why the counter by Babs to clogging the neutral zone is to dump and chase. There are so many stats that support that controlled zone entries (either skating it in or skating with short passes to gain skating momentum in to the zone) generate far more chances on average and we have a multitude of players (and an even better one when Willy comes back) that can skate the puck in, but Babcock doesn't do it.

 

[thewave]

Use the D, Wings and Short pass.

Was saying this from before the articles came out, could see it in the game. Babcock doesn't like what i said above. He would rather Brown skate to around the line and chip it in and win 30% along the wall for some dopey reason.

 

[thewave]

I never understood why the counter by Babs to clogging the neutral zone is to dump and chase. There are so many stats that support that controlled zone entries (either skating it in or skating with short passes to gain skating momentum in to the zone) generate far more chances on average and we have a multitude of players (and an even better one when Willy comes back) that can skate the puck in, but Babcock doesn't do it.

Right like every GDT we are losing in because teams jam us up. He can be quite the old goat, resists change.

Only reason Boston beat us, Babs was slow to adapt with Smith.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

Force them to the boards, be physical, take away space and dont take penalties. Seems like the basic ingredients to win a hockey game. Interest take Craig Button, thanks for coming out.

 

[Nineteen67]

Lack of team toughness was one of three concerns I had going into the season. Hopefully Dubas will address this soon.

 

[Nineteen67]

Don't wanna judge them too much just yet, but the game against Pittsburgh wasn't bad at all. Against the Blues though i felt not only were they winning those physical battles but also their passing and puck movement was cleaner than ours. The latter will not always be the case, as speed and skill is this teams pride.

I trust Babs and he is trying to preach a tighter game as we all know that just scoring 5 goals a night is not sustainable and certainly not gonna work in playoff hockey. They will work the kinks out soon, I already see the d improving with the play of Dermot n Ozi.

I do think we lack some pesky characters though. Naz has seemed so idk careful, possibly due to the playoff suspension, but we probably need some 4th line agitator. Maybe Goat, or leivo, or even Hyman can take up that role of getting under the skin of opposition.

Kadri has 7 hits this season. Seven.

 

[Trapper]

Kadri has 7 hits this season. Seven.

Matthews needs a skilled winger with size (or rather someone who can use his body consistently) and Kadri needs a controlled loose canon winger. While Komarov the player might have degraded, Komarov the person/linemate is missed.

 

[Bluelines]

The “expert insight” heard elsewhere was that the word was out in the league on how to play the Leafs; no penalties, clog the middle, force them to the boards, be physical”. He also opined that the Leafs lacked the colourful character(s) that could inject needed energy when needed (like a Bob Kelly could do with the Flyers years ago)

So this is where guys like Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, Kadri, Johnsson can step up and show their value to the team it's their job to grind, play a board game and create space for the more skilled guys.

Hockey is a game about time and space, the bad teams give you time and space and the good teams make time and space. Right now we are not an elite team, we have elite talent but not an elite team. Until we learn how to play the game more than just one way, teams will continue to play one way against us.

 

[Trapper]

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Reilly.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang.

Sure, maybe the Pens core was slightly better. But I’m not sure if their supporting cast was superior.

Was it easy for teams to “clog the middle” against the Pens? They won2 of the last 3 cups. Our elite players will adjust. Just like the Pens did. Reminder that we’re 6-3.

The Pens were able to dominate down low and on the walls when required.
They were also able to fore-check and maintain pressure beyond the 1 and done.
They also had goaltending that was posting playoff save percentages of .920 +.

The support staff needs to be able to cycle and fore-check when you can't rush all the time.