Prospect Info: Anthony Mantha

[Frk It]

I'm ok with Mantha not being on the team right now. I actually think we don't have a lot of dead weight at forward, for once.

I would like to see this by the end of the year, though:

Tatar-Nielsen-Mantha
Vanek-Larkin-Nyquist
Zetterberg-Sheahan-AA
Abdelkader-Glenny-Helm

And FWIW, if we waived Ott we have enough cap space to bring Mantha up.

 

[Flowah]

I'm ok with Mantha not being on the team right now. I actually think we don't have a lot of dead weight at forward, for once.

I would like to see this by the end of the year, though:

Tatar-Nielsen-Mantha
Vanek-Larkin-Nyquist
Zetterberg-Sheahan-AA
Abdelkader-Glenny-Helm

And FWIW, if we waived Ott we have enough cap space to bring Mantha up.

You didn't touch the Larkin line. That's good.

I like Z on the 3rd with reduced minutes. I'd hope that line feasts with him, Sheahy, and AA. I mean it better.

That's one hell of an expensive 4th line but I feel comfortable knowing they play that kind of game and could easily slot up if necessary. Frankly as long as the minutes are well distributed and he's not playing 7 minutes a night, I don't see a problem putting AA on the 4th line with Helm and Glendening. He's prone to doing it himself anyway and it'd give him a couple other speedsters who don't really need the puck to be effective. Just go out and smash.

That does look as close to ideal as you could get with our pieces. *Maybe* Bertuzzi given his preseason and if he continues that. But tough to see who he'd replace.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

If Mantha continues to light it up there in Grand Rapids, I could still see him being up sooner rather then later. Waive Ott still think he's going to be the odd man out any ways. Same thing with jurco when he gets off of LTIR.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

There is nothing that gets more blown out of proportion on this board than the defensive responsibilities of wingers. Mantha's problem traditionally is that he stops moving his feet and in doing so stops contesting plays, winning battles and supporting the puck all over the ice. He also doesn't like to stop on the puck (like many a big guy). This issue extends well beyond the defensive zone.

I am glad that he is finding the back of the net, even if those specific goals may not be easily replicated in the NHL.

 

[Frk It]

You didn't touch the Larkin line. That's good.

Well, technically the line has been Vanek-Helm-Nyquist up until this point. But I don't see any reason why Larkin can't do everything Helm does, but better for that line.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I think this is just one of those things the organization says when they don't want you in the NHL yet. It's vague enough that you can't really prove it wrong from the outside perspective, but strong enough that both player and fan will feel like they ought to have more patience. But I really do think they released this kind of thing as a way to try to get the fans off their backs, because they're feeling a lot of heat lately.

The Wings have proven over and over that you're not NHL ready when you can play on their NHL team and make a steady contribution, you're NHL ready when they run out of options. Nyquist, Ouellet, Tatar, etc know all about that.

 

[FireBird71]

I'd give a few more games and if he continues to score then he needs to be here....just hope he's not a liability

 

[Yemack]

There is nothing that gets more blown out of proportion on this board than the defensive responsibilities of wingers. Mantha's problem traditionally is that he stops moving his feet and in doing so stops contesting plays, winning battles and supporting the puck all over the ice. He also doesn't like to stop on the puck (like many a big guy). This issue extends well beyond the defensive zone.

I am glad that he is finding the back of the net, even if those specific goals may not be easily replicated in the NHL.

But he doesn't need to do all that! (insert your square peg round hole quote here)

I think what you just described is precisely what some people were asking him to do better. Just different vocabulary as to what defensive means I guess.

I remember watching Mantha in his first NHL game and saying exact same thing. 'He needs to move his feet a lot more when he doesn't have the puck.' Also it was quite shocking as how he sometimes pursued the puck and at one point just stopped competing. It was bit too much of a surprise that I thought to myself 'Did I just see what I think I saw?'

I think closest comparison to Mantha is Johan Franzen. Not Vanek. I remember commenting in this board that Franson needs to move his feet quite a lot more when he doesn't have the puck. Franson was better than Mantha on a lot of aspects though. Not just competing and what not but also scoring.

So if we are lucky, we have another Franzen waiting in GR.

 

[waltdetroit]

Having watched all 3 Griffins games, Mantha:

> Back-checks, 1-2x a game I see him fight for the puck and skate with it from behind the net

> Fore-checks and makes the right pass mostly

> Plays the right point on the PP but could easily play 1/2 boards

> The speed on his slap shot varies (not a bad thing)

> Is moving around the ice more - He has taken a big step on "compete level

> He can still learn things in GRG - the coach is pretty good

 

[TheOtherOne]

Which is how the Wings have ruined a few players over the years. I'm by no means a Brendan Smith fan, but forcing him to abandon his offensive instincts and force him to play a defensive defenseman game completely ruined so much of his effectiveness.

Let players play to their strengths.

Or maybe he was never going to be good regardless of what role the coach told him to play.

 

[Yemack]

Having watched all 3 Griffins games, Mantha:

> Back-checks, 1-2x a game I see him fight for the puck and skate with it from behind the net

> Fore-checks and makes the right pass mostly

> Plays the right point on the PP but could easily play 1/2 boards

> The speed on his slap shot varies (not a bad thing)

> Is moving around the ice more - He has taken a big step on "compete level

> He can still still learn things in GRG - the coach is pretty good

It's great that he's dominating AHL so far. He certainly looked improved in preseason. He moved like NHL players would and looked more than ready physically. Just wasnt watching him closely to really have a say on him.

Does he have a play making skill to play 1/2 wall during PP?

 

[waltdetroit]

I think so, he runs the point pretty well - sliding along the blue line - pinching in or staying back - moves up toward the net. Only 3 games but he is making good decisions. Actually IMHO, if he stays down, he will only get better

edit: in the AHL he can..might take a bit in the NHL

 

[Heaton]

Or maybe he was never going to be good regardless of what role the coach told him to play.

Yep, that's possible too. But it could be the same thing if we took a guy like Tatar and tried to make him a 4th line grinder who played no powerplay and all PK. Smith was an elite college offensive defensemen, you can't tell me he was used as an offensive defensemen in his entire Detroit career.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yep, that's possible too. But it could be the same thing if we took a guy like Tatar and tried to make him a 4th line grinder who played no powerplay and all PK. Smith was an elite college offensive defensemen, you can't tell me he was used as an offensive defensemen in his entire Detroit career.

Almost more frustratingly he was used like that for his first 14 games the first time he cracked the team. Played with Kronwall and was told to go he put up 7 points in 14 games. Yes there were mistakes that were pretty bad in his own end, but they actually did get early offensive returns and then went with the lets blow him up as a player and rebuild him....

Mantha can play a lot of different style games. He has a higher hockey IQ than he gets credit for in my opinion. Is as good a passer as he is a shooter and that isn't talked about enough.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Which is how the Wings have ruined a few players over the years. I'm by no means a Brendan Smith fan, but forcing him to abandon his offensive instincts and force him to play a defensive defenseman game completely ruined so much of his effectiveness.

Let players play to their strengths.

He still has his "offensive instincts". He's just not a good player. You can see him step up in the play but he doesn't finish on chances. If he did he would have 10+ goals per season and be a much more valuable player. His passing is also pretty bad.

 

[Heaton]

He still has his "offensive instincts". He's just not a good player. You can see him step up in the play but he doesn't finish on chances. If he did he would have 10+ goals per season and be a much more valuable player. His passing is also pretty bad.

And if Blashill tries to make Mantha a two-way player he's going to get similar results and we'll all wonder why he produced everywhere else he was used as an offensive player and isn't producing when Blashill is benching him for a few turnovers for not being great defensively when he was drafted for his ****ing offense.

Hopefully that doesn't happen and they play Mantha to his strengths unlike what Babcock did with Smith.

 

[lomekian]

Re Mantha..if he keeps putting up points and maintains his improved play all around the ice, he'll be up before the season ends. As observed, he's getting better at his all round game, and looks closer, but despite his goal threat, he didn't look ready when he was up last year to me.

Re Smith...his game has always been best as a puck lugger at every level, and DRWs system didn't match his strengths well in the Babs years. It now does better, and its up to him to make it work.

 

[waltdetroit]

Mantha does a good job net front. This is a positive in his game

 

[Pavels Dog]

And if Blashill tries to make Mantha a two-way player he's going to get similar results and we'll all wonder why he produced everywhere else he was used as an offensive player and isn't producing when Blashill is benching him for a few turnovers for not being great defensively when he was drafted for his ****ing offense.

Hopefully that doesn't happen and they play Mantha to his strengths unlike what Babcock did with Smith.

Mantha just needs to be on the level of Tatar/Nyquist defensively if he is actually producing decent numbers offensively. Problem only appears if like Smith/Pulkkinen you are unable to produce offensively, then you need to actually play solid defense to make up for it.

 

[HIFE]

Mantha has been lighting up the AHL so far, but it seems the Wings want him to play a more complete game.

Thoughts? Do you think you can/should have forwards in the lineup that aren't two way players?

This supposed category of "two-way" players barely exists. Every NHL player has to be responsible and dominant in all the zones. Kessel is a "one-way" player? His line against their competition was the best line for 2 months this year. Mantha is a strong and skilled hockey player that's all you need to know. Seriously there's no rush Mantha is our 1st call-up for crying out loud.

Well, technically the line has been Vanek-Helm-Nyquist up until this point. But I don't see any reason why Larkin can't do everything Helm does, but better for that line.

Wow you sure want Helm on the 4th line! Larkin's play (in oly 4 games) isn't in the same galaxy of Helm's control and success winning battles, anything. Larkin is trying to skate through 3 players creating turnovers/giveaways. How many shots does he have? Sorry but as of today Larkin can't do what Helm does.

We fans are blinded by bias. Brendan Smith is some #2/#3 who Babcock neutered his offensive capabilities? Smith is barely an NHL player, how many teams would take him off our hands? The 2 breakaways again within a minute of each other, the goofy mistakes. As Pavels Dog sites he has NEVER finished the exiting chances he does get. He's basically a bust. I cannot understand criticizing Holland and 95% of the Wings players and still feel the need to prop up Smith.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Which is how the Wings have ruined a few players over the years. I'm by no means a Brendan Smith fan, but forcing him to abandon his offensive instincts and force him to play a defensive defenseman game completely ruined so much of his effectiveness.

Let players play to their strengths.

Nah, that's bad strategy. You can't play in the modern NHL if you don't pay attention to defense. Can't have it. Unless you're putting up giant offensive numbers, truly astounding point totals, there's just no way teams can overcome bad defensive players in huge roles. They get spotted and abused.

Teams have to limit breaks and rushes. That's job #1 in the NHL right now. Guys who float lead to more breaks and rushes.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Re Mantha..if he keeps putting up points and maintains his improved play all around the ice, he'll be up before the season ends. As observed, he's getting better at his all round game, and looks closer, but despite his goal threat, he didn't look ready when he was up last year to me.

Re Smith...his game has always been best as a puck lugger at every level, and DRWs system didn't match his strengths well in the Babs years. It now does better, and its up to him to make it work.

This is exactly right. Babs' system was awful for Smith in terms of playing to his strengths. Of course Smith didn't help is cause by making idiotic mistakes.

 

[jkutswings]

Nah, that's bad strategy. You can't play in the modern NHL if you don't pay attention to defense. Can't have it. Unless you're putting up giant offensive numbers, truly astounding point totals, there's just no way teams can overcome bad defensive players in huge roles. They get spotted and abused.

Teams have to limit breaks and rushes. That's job #1 in the NHL right now. Guys who float lead to more breaks and rushes.

There's a big difference between saying that all your players need a certain level of defensive accountability, and trying to turn an offensive defenseman into a defense-first player. All that was being claimed is that it's not smart to force an unestablished player, as soon as they crack the NHL, to completely change the type of player they've always been.

Augmenting with greater defensive responsibility is fine. Totally demolishing offensive instincts to do it is not.

 

[Heaton]

There's a big difference between saying that all your players need a certain level of defensive accountability, and trying to turn an offensive defenseman into a defense-first player. All that was being claimed is that it's not smart to force an unestablished player, as soon as they crack the NHL, to completely change the type of player they've always been.

Augmenting with greater defensive responsibility is fine. Totally demolishing offensive instincts to do it is not.

Exactly, and there's a huge difference between being 'lazy' and concentrating on offense over defense.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

With regards to Smith under Babs vs. Blash:

Under Babcock, when Smith received the puck laterally from the strong side (or in retrieval of the puck on the change) he immediately stopped moving his feet and started looking for a pass, which makes him low hanging fruit for fore checkers. With Blashill Smith at least seems more willing to move his feet and take advantage of space he is given. He will never be a great player, but he is one of the few that I can affirmatively say has been better under Blash than Babcock.

Oh, and being defensively responsible and rushing the puck are most certainly not mutually exclusive.