GDT: Another One? Devils @ Rangers

[SteveCangialosi123]

Well at least we have a nice easy schedule coming up... (NSH, PHI, PIT, PIT, WSH, WSH) This could get realllly bad guys.

I mean NYR is as good or better than those teams and we just played them very well and could have won. If Cory plays like he just did, we'll be in games. We just need some puck luck and to keep tightening the d up.

 

[NJDevils7]

The bolded is the reason for the contrasting opinions. If they finish bottom 5 this year while remaining relatively healthy, they are in deep **** for the next couple years in this division. I can't speak for everyone else and I haven't even been one of the posters "furious" about last night's game, but that is what concerns me the most.

This can't be a bottom 5 year because it would be pretty damning to this team's future outlook. Just my perspective.

Yea. I would not be fine at all if this team finishes bottom 5. I mean, if this team is healthy all year and finishes bottom 5...I really don't know where we go from there. Not like our team is full of young talent and we have prospects.

Nice avatar BTW haha

 

[Jersey Fresh]

The bolded is the reason for the contrasting opinions. If they finish bottom 5 this year while remaining relatively healthy, they are in deep **** for the next couple years in this division. I can't speak for everyone else and I haven't even been one of the posters "furious" about last night's game, but that is what concerns me the most.

This can't be a bottom 5 year because it would be pretty damning to this team's future outlook. Just my perspective.

Did you read what he wrote? If we end up that low, it's because of massively underperforming players or injury (which is what we've seen up until this point). How would that be anything but positive in terms of next year's outlook? I don't think anyone really thinks Palmieri, Henrique, and especially Schneider are what we've seen so far for these ~30 games.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Yea. I would not be fine at all if this team finishes bottom 5. I mean, if this team is healthy all year and finishes bottom 5...I really don't know where we go from there. Not like our team is full of young talent and we have prospects.

Our key players are having a off year and the majority of the teams in our divison are playing over their heads. Add both things up and you have your answer as to why we're so far back.

There's not one person who saw that coming. Everyone had high hopes in Palmieri, Henrique, Schneider, Greene, etc. If the core of your team is having a career low year, odds are, we'll be having rough season.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Our key players are having a off year and the majority of the teams in our divison are playing over their heads. Add both things up and you have your answer as to why we're so far back.

There's not one person who saw that coming. Everyone had high hopes in Palmieri, Henrique, Schneider, Greene, etc. If the core of your team is having a career low year, odds are, we'll be having rough season.

Agreed. And Greene is a guy that only gets talked about in passing in the GDTs, but man has he ever fallen off a cliff.

 

[Zippy316]

Agreed. And Greene is a guy that only gets talked about in passing in the GDTs, but man has he ever fallen off a cliff.

He hasn't really fallen off a cliff, but he just can't be relied on to be a #1D anymore. It seemed like last year Larsson's emergence covered up a bit of Greene's regression as he was still solid, but didn't look like the defender that he was for the three years before that. Now it seems like all of our defenders are on their own island with none of the defenders capable of carrying a pairing on their own. Greene might be able to carry a second pair, but not so much a first anymore.

Which is why getting a top defender and maybe another solid one as soon as possible is a pressing need. I think if we get a good defender, it'll push everyone down to more manageable minutes.

I will say that the new pairings have been surprisingly solid. Merrill - Severson seem to always look good together comparative to their play with other defenders, but Merrill's taken it to another level of late. He's been making little plays that have helped the transition game a ton. Holding onto the puck or avoiding a forechecker to neutralize a forecheck and getting in the way of forecheckers just enough to give us some time and space on the breakout.

 

[Edmonton East]

Yea. I would not be fine at all if this team finishes bottom 5. I mean, if this team is healthy all year and finishes bottom 5...I really don't know where we go from there. Not like our team is full of young talent and we have prospects.

Nice avatar BTW haha

The one good thing I did in 2016

Did you read what he wrote? If we end up that low, it's because of massively underperforming players or injury (which is what we've seen up until this point). How would that be anything but positive in terms of next year's outlook? I don't think anyone really thinks Palmieri, Henrique, and especially Schneider are what we've seen so far for these ~30 games.

...I don't know why you quoted me. He thinks if we finish bottom 5, the team is still okay in terms of future outlook. You apparently agree with him.

I disagree with that and listed why. So....? And the only player on this team people can 100% say has underperformed to ability is Cory. That's it. Palms and Henrique were coming off career years, we had no way of knowing if that was sustainable. Greene lost the guy he played 90% of his minutes with. And the Devils have not lost more games to injury than average.

Not directed at you, but in general: It's kinda naive and homer-ish of some people to assume a bunch of guys on our team are having "off years" while a bunch of other teams are "overperforming", so we will be fine next year...right?

 

[Edmonton East]

Our key players are having a off year and the majority of the teams in our divison are playing over their heads. Add both things up and you have your answer as to why we're so far back.

There's not one person who saw that coming. Everyone had high hopes in Palmieri, Henrique, Schneider, Greene, etc. If the core of your team is having a career low year, odds are, we'll be having rough season.

Again guys, we need to stop acting like this is fact. It isn't reality.

The more accurate statement is the core of our team is not out producing their career highs set in the preceding season. I don't know why people are now acting as if anything short of that means they aren't producing as they should. Yea, sure, I do expect them to improve on those numbers but that does NOT mean that those numbers should be treated as the floor for these guys. It's kind of crazy.

 

[NJDevs26]

Again guys, we need to stop acting like this is fact. It isn't reality.

The more accurate statement is the core of our team is not out producing their career highs set in the preceding season. I don't know why people are now acting as if anything short of that means they aren't producing as they should. Yea, sure, I do expect them to improve on those numbers but that does NOT mean that those numbers should be treated as the floor for these guys. It's kind of crazy.

re: Henrique, if anything's obvious (besides the fact he's streaky) it's the fact that he seems to be an every other year player at this point. To wit:

2012 50 points in 82 games
2013 16 points in 42 games
2014 43 points (25 goals) in 77 games
2015 43 points (16 goals) in 75 games
2016 50 points (30 goals) in 80 games
2017 17 points (7 goals) in 31 games

I'm sure he's capable of another 25-goalish season or three, he's just not likely to do it consistently cause he's never been consistent.

re: Palmieri yeah I'd be lying if I wasn't worried about him being a one-year wonder but part of the reason people loved getting him in the first place is he had good aggregate numbers his last year in Anaheim considering his ATOI and role. His own GM who traded him admitted he was worried he'd score so many goals that he couldn't afford him in arbitration. Certainly we have to see more before we judge him a one-year wonder or someone capable of being consistent.

I don't know who else you think we have on our roster now that overachieved last year, well DSP I suppose but that was such a small size sample I don't think people were truly counting on him as part of the core. Cammalleri's always been a solid pro, he hasn't overachieved or underachieved. Greene's been solid for a number of years, him falling off was almost as much of an unwelcome surprise as Cory - I only say almost cause Greene's a couple years older. I'd certainly put those two as the core of the team.

 

[Zippy316]

re: Henrique, if anything's obvious (besides the fact he's streaky) it's the fact that he seems to be an every other year player at this point. To wit:

2012 50 points in 82 games
2013 16 points in 42 games
2014 43 points (25 goals) in 77 games
2015 43 points (16 goals) in 75 games
2016 50 points (30 goals) in 80 games
2017 17 points (7 goals) in 31 games

As for Henrique, last year seems to be an anomaly as far as his 30 goals. He shot at 17.65% at even strength last year that means just about 1 out of every 5.5 shots he took 5-on-5 went in. In fact, at even strength, he's about on pace for the same production points-wise as last year. He has 3g 7a so far this year in 382 minutes of TOI whereas last year he had 18g 11a in 1060 minutes.

He hasn't been scoring as much on the PP/PK as he did last year which is what's hurting his numbers. He's been scoring less but assisting more this year.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Palmieri 4 goals 12 assists plus 1 at this point. The assists are keeping him vaguely respectable. Sure we'd like more goals but he's not the problem. Plus he plays the kind of chippy game (think Brad Marchand type) that gives us a bit of an edge.

Just noticed Zacha's minus 12. Ouch.

Also Fiddler. Quite disappointing.

 

[MadDevil]

As for Henrique, last year seems to be an anomaly as far as his 30 goals. He shot at 17.65% at even strength last year that means just about 1 out of every 5.5 shots he took 5-on-5 went in. In fact, at even strength, he's about on pace for the same production points-wise as last year. He has 3g 7a so far this year in 382 minutes of TOI whereas last year he had 18g 11a in 1060 minutes.

He hasn't been scoring as much on the PP/PK as he did last year which is what's hurting his numbers. He's been scoring less but assisting more this year.

He's kind of weird that way where it seems like he alternates scoring more and assisting more every season.

 

[Zippy316]

He's kind of weird that way where it seems like he alternates scoring more and assisting more every season.

Henrique and Palmieri both seem to be becoming more well-rounded players.

The trade them away stuff that has been floated around is ridiculous. They're both important parts to this team and will be for a while.

We just need to find a way to add players around Hall, Zajac, Henrique, and Palmieri and upgrade the defense.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Palmieri 4 goals 12 assists plus 1 at this point. The assists are keeping him vaguely respectable. Sure we'd like more goals but he's not the problem. Plus he plays the kind of chippy game (think Brad Marchand type) that gives us a bit of an edge.

Just noticed Zacha's minus 12. Ouch.

Also Fiddler. Quite disappointing.

Fiddler has underperformed so far.
He was signed to chip in a few goals now & then.

He could be a quality pickup at the deadline since his game can translate well to the playoffs.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The issue with Fiddler, again, is usage. Should not be used in a checking role, should not be getting more than 8-10 minutes a night. He should be getting 2nd unit PK duty with sparing ES shifts.

4 of 9 December games he's gotten +14 minutes, completely ridiculous for a guy like him.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Palmieri 4 goals 12 assists plus 1 at this point. The assists are keeping him vaguely respectable. Sure we'd like more goals but he's not the problem. Plus he plays the kind of chippy game (think Brad Marchand type) that gives us a bit of an edge.

Just noticed Zacha's minus 12. Ouch.

Also Fiddler. Quite disappointing.

When you look at Palmieri's stats, yea, he's not a huge problem, but when you watch him play? He does not look the same as last year. His shot is constantly missing the net, he bobbles the puck entirely way too much, does not seem as quick as he was last year.

 

[Edmonton East]

.

I don't know who else you think we have on our roster now that overachieved last year, well DSP I suppose but that was such a small size sample I don't think people were truly counting on him as part of the core. Cammalleri's always been a solid pro, he hasn't overachieved or underachieved. Greene's been solid for a number of years, him falling off was almost as much of an unwelcome surprise as Cory - I only say almost cause Greene's a couple years older. I'd certainly put those two as the core of the team.

Kinda confused by your post since you reaffirmed my perspective...then added the bolded. I never said everyone overachieved. That was never my argument. Ever. Ever. Ever.

I said you can't assume career years are the floor for players in response to a poster who explicitly listed Palms, Cory, and Henrique. Which you seem to agree with based on the rest of your post.

The context here is people arguing IF we finish bottom 5, it isn't a big deal because it will be because the guys mentioned above just had an off year and they will definitely rebound next year. I don't agree with that, and I don't think you do either.

 

[Brooklyndevil]

I don't know if you were aware of this trade last summer but we landed a guy by the name of Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson and one might say that it was a culture changing trade.

I'll bite... who would you like Shero to acquire for Greene or Henrique, I'm really curious.

First, You brought Larsson into the discussion by trying to defend Greene. I wasn't talking about the Hall trade. Second, Shero can try and make a deal with the Jets. They're also struggling and could use a change. Wheeler or Trouba plus for Rico and Greene. Something like that. It's a bit early and many teams still have a chance at the playoffs so it's hard to see what's available.

 

[NJDevs26]

Kinda confused by your post since you reaffirmed my perspective...then added the bolded. I never said everyone overachieved. That was never my argument. Ever. Ever. Ever.

I said you can't assume career years are the floor for players in response to a poster who explicitly listed Palms, Cory, and Henrique. Which you seem to agree with based on the rest of your post.

The context here is people arguing IF we finish bottom 5, it isn't a big deal because it will be because the guys mentioned above just had an off year and they will definitely rebound next year. I don't agree with that, and I don't think you do either.

I do agree finishing bottom five is a big deal and a tremendous step backward in general.

Personally when you say the core of the team I'm thinking Cory, Greene and even Zajac/Camm before I'm thinking Palm and Henrique. If you just meant those two players specifically then yeah sure I share the skepticism to a large degree.

 

[Zippy316]

I do agree finishing bottom five is a big deal and a tremendous step backward in general.

Personally when you say the core of the team I'm thinking Cory, Greene and even Zajac/Camm before I'm thinking Palm and Henrique. If you just meant those two players specifically then yeah sure I share the skepticism to a large degree.

I don't think of Henrique and Palmieri as part of the core of this team right now, but I do think they will be useful players for this team for a while.

I think ideally they end up as a step above the role guys like Filpulla/Callahan play for Tampa Bay. Like Zubrus was during his first contract. They're not core players per se but they are important to the team nonetheless. I'm going to imagine Zajac regresses in the next couple years and plays that Filpulla role for the Devils as well.

If, and it's a huge if, we can strengthen the defense, I do not think this team is that far off. We're dressing arguably one of the worst defenses in the league which is negatively impacting both the offense and the goaltending. Just think of how well the Blues defended us and how many times their defenders broke up plays and took the puck out of the zone and how well they passed through our forecheck. All the coaching in the world can't teach the instincts that some defenders thrive off of. A great defense goes a long way into having a strong team.

I don't think picking top 5 is a step backwards in all honesty in anything but morale and possibly attracting free agents. If we can pick up a #1C or first pairing D prospect from the draft, then the future will look a ton brighter. It's not like we were going to win the cup this year anyways.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

The issue with Fiddler, again, is usage. Should not be used in a checking role, should not be getting more than 8-10 minutes a night. He should be getting 2nd unit PK duty with sparing ES shifts.

4 of 9 December games he's gotten +14 minutes, completely ridiculous for a guy like him.

It's just an indication of a massive, systemic lack of talent. He ends up playing that much because the other options aren't a whole lot better. We think they are because they had career years last year, or we overrate them, but the reality is that there just isn't much talent on this team. There is more speed, and that is good. It's a positive step in a direction the team HAS to move, but the talent just isn't there roster wide.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I don't think of Henrique and Palmieri as part of the core of this team right now, but I do think they will be useful players for this team for a while.

I think ideally they end up as a step above the role guys like Filpulla/Callahan play for Tampa Bay. Like Zubrus was during his first contract. They're not core players per se but they are important to the team nonetheless. I'm going to imagine Zajac regresses in the next couple years and plays that Filpulla role for the Devils as well.

If, and it's a huge if, we can strengthen the defense, I do not think this team is that far off. We're dressing arguably one of the worst defenses in the league which is negatively impacting both the offense and the goaltending. Just think of how well the Blues defended us and how many times their defenders broke up plays and took the puck out of the zone and how well they passed through our forecheck. All the coaching in the world can't teach the instincts that some defenders thrive off of. A great defense goes a long way into having a strong team.

I don't think picking top 5 is a step backwards in all honesty in anything but morale and possibly attracting free agents. If we can pick up a #1C or first pairing D prospect from the draft, then the future will look a ton brighter. It's not like we were going to win the cup this year anyways.

Everyone had them as part of our core, and as a positive not even 3 months ago. They end up having hot second halves and everyone will call them key core pieces again.

 

[njdevils1982]

we still talking about the game here?

 

[Zippy316]

Everyone had them as part of our core, and as a positive not even 3 months ago. They end up having hot second halves and everyone will call them key core pieces again.

Well, I would say they're are part of the core, but they're not the core. They're the complimentary pieces of the core.

The core is the best players on your team and who you're built around. The Devils are built around Hall, Greene, and Schneider. Henrique and Palmieri are in that second group, in my opinion.

That's not really a slight on them. They've played well of late. Wood seems to be the perfect catalyst to get them going and moving, last night being a perfect example of that.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Well, I would say they're are part of the core, but they're not the core. They're the complimentary pieces of the core.

The core is the best players on your team and who you're built around. The Devils are built around Hall, Greene, and Schneider. Henrique and Palmieri are in that second group, in my opinion.

That's not really a slight on them. They've played well of late. Wood seems to be the perfect catalyst to get them going and moving, last night being a perfect example of that.

A big problem with that is we have no centers in your core. And the 1D is aging.